Come on, we see Yoda be weak even in the classic trilogy. When Luke presses him on Vader's identity in Return of the Jedi, Yoda tries to evade the question at first because of how much sorrow it causes him. When Luke persists he does answer him, but at first Yoda lets his pain rule his actions.

Ok Tramp we'll have to agree to disagree here. I'm not interested in running in circles with you again.

I would actually point to the fight against Sidious as to why Yoda does NOT use DSP. In this epic clash, we see that Yoda does manage to hold his own to a certain point until he just bails. The fight leading up to this didn't show him losing but actually tapping into the Dark Side. We can presume that Yoda doesn't use DSP because he has used them by necessity once in the movies, and it was enough to cause him to forfeit his battle against the destroyer of the Jedi. He fled because he couldn't defeat Sidious and remain in control of his emotions. He chose to let Palpatine assume ultimate power so he would be able to teach what it means to be a Jedi. He wasn't infallible, but he would rather concede than fight using the Dark Side.

4 minutes ago, RickAllison said:

I would actually point to the fight against Sidious as to why Yoda does NOT use DSP. In this epic clash, we see that Yoda does manage to hold his own to a certain point until he just bails. The fight leading up to this didn't show him losing but actually tapping into the Dark Side. We can presume that Yoda doesn't use DSP because he has used them by necessity once in the movies, and it was enough to cause him to forfeit his battle against the destroyer of the Jedi. He fled because he couldn't defeat Sidious and remain in control of his emotions. He chose to let Palpatine assume ultimate power so he would be able to teach what it means to be a Jedi. He wasn't infallible, but he would rather concede than fight using the Dark Side.

I would say it's more a matter of he bailed because he knew he would have tap into the Dark Side in order to beat Palpatine, and refused to do so because it would mean becoming the same type of monster he had spent his life fighting against.

Disregarding the rules for a moment - would Yoda even get a power boost from the dark side? According to him, it's not stronger than the Force, after all. And he's already reached a very high plateau of power without the dark side.

2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Disregarding the rules for a moment - would Yoda even get a power boost from the dark side? According to him, it's not stronger than the Force, after all. And he's already reached a very high plateau of power without the dark side.

IF he were to use both Light Side and Dark Side points, then yes, that would be an incredible power boost. Just using one or the other, not so much. But is it really worth the price? I think not, and neither did Yoda, IMO.

In Keith's defense on making Yoda FR 5, he was building Yoda as a PC and you can only sink so much XP into one character in a party and not the rest before it's clear that that PC would outshine every other member of the party enough so that there would be no point in the rest of the group sticking around for a con game .

I was in that group, the first night Keith threw it on the table, he could have gone higher than 2K XP, but thank the Force he didn't (that game was already long enough without adding 6 more pages of specializations to everyone else's character sheets).

Now as a NPC, he can have whatever the heck you want him to have. For those that picture him as FR 5, then give him FR 5, if you want him to be higher, go higher.

This thread is one gigantic indicator of why FFG doesn't write stats for the iconics.

The Force save us from Force Paladins.

So Yoda didn't want to take 3 conflict and spend 3 DS because that's wrong, but being monumentally selfish and fearful enough let a Sith Lord rule the galaxy isn't giving in to the dark side.

1 hour ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I still think any character - including Yoda - is not so inhumanely perfect so as to never ever gain Conflict by using dark side pips. A character like Yoda could stay at 100 Morality and still gain Conflict here and there.

I like a higher FR for Yoda because it allows him to Commit several dice to ongoing effects and still pull off the amazing. But the Conflict and dark pips stuff...I kind of despise that mechanic anyway, and have a hard time viewing the use of dark pips as "using the dark side". It turns every Force user into a maniacal nut job.

The Strain cost and DP flip can still work, but represent the work required to use the Force properly, despite the pull of the dark side.

So does Yoda use dark pips? Sure, when he needs to.

On 2017-07-23 at 10:59 PM, Desslok said:

Do we know that? What all do we see Yoda do?

Irrelevant. What is the context of Yoda's existence? Some assumptions in the story have to made. The Star Wars galaxy is apparently home to thousands or millions of inhabitable planets. We haven't seen them all, but they exist in the context.

Besides, what do we see YOU do? You could be a real penguin, after all

So just to shift subject and combine some potential levity and Yoda...

My new campaign for my son takes place around 800 BBY. The Ruusan Reformation is still a relatively fresh memory. The current Sith are going to make their first move: remove some key Senators blocking legislation that will weaken anti-corruption laws. So there will be several murders, each different, some appear to be crimes of passion, others appear to be accidents... The game is focussed around the Sentinel class (with some great guidance from the Bounty Hunter book), lots of urban underworld stuff, investigations, etc.

In the end the PC should eventually find and reveal the Sith apprentice, and while doing so will come across a strange egg. The journal they also find hints that the egg contains one who will become a great Force user who will see the Republic through its highest heights and darkest fall...naturally the Sith want this egg for their own purposes.

At some point the egg will hatch, and lil' Yoda will emerge. I'll have to get my artist friend to make a sketch. Yoda will be a most unruly and mischievous youngling, never hesitating to untie another person's trousers through the Force. Eventually he'll become the PC's Padawan... Could be amusing

8 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

IF he were to use both Light Side and Dark Side points

"Disregarding the rules for a moment "

I'm talking about the movie universe, not the rules.

6 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

"Disregarding the rules for a moment "

I'm talking about the movie universe, not the rules.

At least in Legends, the way it generally ranked was that the Dark Side wasn't necessarily more powerful but easier to tap into. In the Old Republic, you had armies of Sith against the Jedi and the Jedi weren't suddenly destroyed. There were a few isolated incidents of rogue Force users who didn't use either and were powerful for their level, but we didn't see the true power of using both until Luke mastered doing so well after Endor. He was able to reach disproportionate power levels because he used both Force and Dark Side, using his emotions to empower himself while remaining in disciplined control. In rules terms, he is skirting the area between 30 and 70 Morality and using both color pips as well as Conflict-giving powers.

Some fans have pointed out this as being Anakin truly bringing balance to the Force, by moving the Galaxy from two orders of opposing idealogies that are at war to a single order that balances the use of all aspects of the Force.

I'm running out of popcorn watching this argument!

I think the DS pips usage and Conflict rules generally do a good job of emulating the pull of the dark side and a characters flaws and darker parts of their humanity but it has limits. What the mechanics of using dark side pips represents in the narrative is internal to the character and as I've thought about it I can't really think of a clear example from any of the canon material of this happening unless it's really just feeling dark emotions while using the force - show by characters facial expressions or the tone of voice while doing something or body language (all just fairly subjective indicators of an internal experience that visual media doesn't convey clearly). The only clear examples of characters drawing on the dark side to use the force are chocking someone with the force or shooting lightning.

I'm curious how the "Yoda never uses DS pips" side really see this as coming out in the narrative of the canon Star Wars stories. Tramp appears to think that if Yoda used a single DS pip while fighting Sidious he'd become a monster just like Sidious (and some nebulous line between experiencing dark side feelings while using the force - even if fleeting - and drawing on those feelings to power the force; all very internal and esoteric things not really shown in the story). I get the impression that it's not just Yoda that "can never use DS pips" but any "Good Jedi" using this approach, which, for me, strips these characters of any drama and humanity (aside from being completely unrealistic) - especially given the mechanics in this game designed to emulate the dark side where gaining Conflict doesn't even guarantee a loss of the absolute measure of how good the character is (e.g., Morality, a character could easily regularly gain small amounts of Conflict and never see their Morality drop, much less drop them low enough to lose Paragon status). A character wouldn't "choose" to gain enough Conflict to drop Paragon status? Yeah, that's realistic and still has room for drama and character humanity and portrays a character with strong virtue and discipline. But never gaining Conflict at all? That sounds like a min/maxer mechanical approach to a character instead of a narratively driven one.

I don't mind trying to shoehorn the number of Force dice a character has into the movies...the dice provide a relative scale that we can compare to on screen (or what's implied on screen) and we can quibble over the details and our preferences.

However, I think it's a huge mistake to try and shoehorn this game's bungled and ridiculous Morality mechanic into the movies. We don't see the characters have a meltdown every time they try to use the Force, there are absolutely zero parallels between the movies and the Morality/Conflict mechanic.

Actually, I blame the Force die. On the surface it's a really clever item that mathematically embodies Yoda's signature answer to the question "Is the dark side stronger?"..."No! Quicker, easier, more seductive..." But I think it would have been better to have a Force die that simply had "pips" or blank faces, and leave the Morality to PC actions rather than at the mercy of a dice roll.

On 7/28/2017 at 10:48 AM, whafrog said:

I don't mind trying to shoehorn the number of Force dice a character has into the movies...the dice provide a relative scale that we can compare to on screen (or what's implied on screen) and we can quibble over the details and our preferences.

However, I think it's a huge mistake to try and shoehorn this game's bungled and ridiculous Morality mechanic into the movies. We don't see the characters have a meltdown every time they try to use the Force, there are absolutely zero parallels between the movies and the Morality/Conflict mechanic.

Actually, I blame the Force die. On the surface it's a really clever item that mathematically embodies Yoda's signature answer to the question "Is the dark side stronger?"..."No! Quicker, easier, more seductive..." But I think it would have been better to have a Force die that simply had "pips" or blank faces, and leave the Morality to PC actions rather than at the mercy of a dice roll.

Why does it have to be a meltdown? We do see Obiwan be frusterated. We see anikan lash out. Darth maul and Dooku are not exactly serene.

Actually everything including dices is too much random... Your Yoda with 5 FR or even 6 might roll less positive force points than a FR2 padawan... So this is endless, this game has nothing to do with the movies and that's why there is no official stats for the main characters of the show.

Noticed the Jedi Temple Guard in Nexus has a FR: 4 (and the only Force Power they have is Bind).

I'd be careful of equating position with power. The best teachers, coaches, administrators, and leaders aren't necessarily the best practitioners, they may be in positions of authority because of other skills and abilities. I think Yoda and the others on the Counsel were by no means the most powerful of the Jedi in the use of the Force but they had a great deal of wisdom and knowledge of both the Force and politics. Well, maybe less political wisdom than they thought they had...

Also it's important to keep the system's scale in mind, after FR 2 most of what is possible to accomplish is within reach of a good roll. The only real difference a higher FR has is how likely that success is and the extent of it's Control/Magnitude/Range. The rest of a Force User's effectiveness comes from other Skills and Talents. If it was up to me I'd rather have a PC with a FR of 2-3 and a boatload of Powers, Skills and Talents than a FR of 4-5 and not much else.

Vader is likely the most powerful Force user in his generation based on the lore and probably would wipe the floor with Yoda in combat but he was no wise leader or exceptional teacher. Essentially he's a glorified weapon and not much else, whereas Yoda likely has less raw power but overall is more effective across a broader range of things and can tap into the Force in ways that are just not available to Vader.

My point being that FR alone isn't a good indicator of actual ability.

I think that Starkiller was even stronger in the Force than Vader, he was one of the stronger Force user, maybe the most powerfull in history according wookieepedia.

He won his duel against Vador. This is maybe not Canon anyway, as the story come from a video game...

On 7/20/2017 at 7:45 AM, Tramp Graphics said:

I'd go higher myself, given the table from the EotE beta:

While, obviously not a hard, fast rule, I do think it's a pretty good guide as to power and knowledge in the Force at differing levels of training.

and above all of everyone that every wielded the force are THE force-wielders whom have infinite force affinity

I'm late to this debate but I thought I'd mention a few things. An issue I see you discussing is Suljo Warde's Force Rating vs. Yoda. At first I thought FR 5 was awful high for Suljo and I also thought FR 4 was a little high for Temple Guards but there are a few things to note.

1.) Yes, Suljo Warde was a "average" Jedi Knight during the Clone Wars, when this game is set it has roughly been 18 years. Who knows what training/experience he has had in those years.

2.) NPCs in the more recent books seem to have slightly higher force ratings than I would expect but at the same time they have fewer powers and upgrades. The Temple Guard for instance only has Bind. I don't know about you but if I were building a Temple Guard they'd probably have a lower force rating and more varied abilities. The point is NPCs are made for a function in this game not necessarily as a full representation. The higher force rating could simply mean in their case that they are so practiced at Bind that they are as reliable as 4 force die at activating it.

Forgive me if this has been mentioned elsewhere but what is the developer's stance on using dark side pips? Are players expected to use them occasionally?

4 hours ago, JinFaram said:

I'm late to this debate but I thought I'd mention a few things. An issue I see you discussing is Suljo Warde's Force Rating vs. Yoda. At first I thought FR 5 was awful high for Suljo and I also thought FR 4 was a little high for Temple Guards but there are a few things to note.

1.) Yes, Suljo Warde was a "average" Jedi Knight during the Clone Wars, when this game is set it has roughly been 18 years. Who knows what training/experience he has had in those years.

2.) NPCs in the more recent books seem to have slightly higher force ratings than I would expect but at the same time they have fewer powers and upgrades. The Temple Guard for instance only has Bind. I don't know about you but if I were building a Temple Guard they'd probably have a lower force rating and more varied abilities. The point is NPCs are made for a function in this game not necessarily as a full representation. The higher force rating could simply mean in their case that they are so practiced at Bind that they are as reliable as 4 force die at activating it.

Forgive me if this has been mentioned elsewhere but what is the developer's stance on using dark side pips? Are players expected to use them occasionally?

Yes, players are expected to use them occasionally, particularly at lower Force ratings (FR 1or 2 in particular). at those Force ratings, you typically don't get light side points consistently enough to be able to rely on them all the time. So, in those instances, it's either tap into the Dark Side a little or fail to use the Force.

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, players are expected to use them occasionally, particularly at lower Force ratings (FR 1or 2 in particular). at those Force ratings, you typically don't get light side points consistently enough to be able to rely on them all the time. So, in those instances, it's either tap into the Dark Side a little or fail to use the Force.

Using a darkside force pip doesn't necessarily mean using hate/anger/evilness or doing an evil thing, it can be as simple as not be calm/at peace, i.e. in a state of emotional turmoil when using the force, and if you only use 1 darks idea pip per session when you really need it, and take no other "evil" aka conflict worthy actions, you are still guaranteed to not have your morality decrease.