8 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

the burden of proof should be on those who think his FR is low, rather than those who think his FR is high.

Why begin from the assumption that Yoda's FR is low? What evidence do we have to suggest that it isn't as high as 7 or 8?

Assuming that it's high is just as unsupported as assuming that it's low. The usual lines of reasoning amount to "because fandom", which isn't useful evidence.

You can plausibly construct Yoda within the ruleset with a high, low, or medium FR, so the mechanics really point to any particular answer.

12 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

Why begin from the assumption that Yoda's FR is low? What evidence do we have to suggest that it isn't as high as 7 or 8?

And what evidence beyond power-gaming presumptions do you have that Yoda's Force Rating is so high?

This was a trap that a lot of people trying to build stats for various iconics had over on the d20 boards, and a trap the WEG writers themselves fell into when doing the d6 stats for the iconics. They all presumed that because we saw the character do something on the screen, they had to have dice pools to allow them to accomplish that feat 100% of the time, when the reality is that they only need a decent chance of performing said accomplishment.

It's probably a main reason that FFG hasn't done stats for the iconics, apart from Lando whose stat block said that it was just a version of Lando that worked for the adventure and was not meant to be a holistic write-up of the character's full capabilities. The Rancor Group folks ran into the same issue when creating stats for the Rebels crew for their Spark of Rebellion fan sourcebook.

As has been mentioned and you seem to cavalierly ignore, a lot of what Yoda can accomplish with the Force is based more upon the fact that he's purchased every single upgrade for the Force powers we see him use, meaning he gets a whole lot more mileage out of a couple of Force points than most PCs would, and doesn't need a huge handful of Force dice to do it.

4 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

And what evidence beyond power-gaming presumptions do you have that Yoda's Force Rating is so high?

This was a trap that a lot of people trying to build stats for various iconics had over on the d20 boards, and a trap the WEG writers themselves fell into when doing the d6 stats for the iconics. They all presumed that because we saw the character do something on the screen, they had to have dice pools to allow them to accomplish that feat 100% of the time, when the reality is that they only need a decent chance of performing said accomplishment.

It's probably a main reason that FFG hasn't done stats for the iconics, apart from Lando whose stat block said that it was just a version of Lando that worked for the adventure and was not meant to be a holistic write-up of the character's full capabilities. The Rancor Group folks ran into the same issue when creating stats for the Rebels crew for their Spark of Rebellion fan sourcebook.

As has been mentioned and you seem to cavalierly ignore, a lot of what Yoda can accomplish with the Force is based more upon the fact that he's purchased every single upgrade for the Force powers we see him use, meaning he gets a whole lot more mileage out of a couple of Force points than most PCs would, and doesn't need a huge handful of Force dice to do it.

4 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

And what evidence beyond power-gaming presumptions do you have that Yoda's Force Rating is so high?

This was a trap that a lot of people trying to build stats for various iconics had over on the d20 boards, and a trap the WEG writers themselves fell into when doing the d6 stats for the iconics. They all presumed that because we saw the character do something on the screen, they had to have dice pools to allow them to accomplish that feat 100% of the time, when the reality is that they only need a decent chance of performing said accomplishment.

It's probably a main reason that FFG hasn't done stats for the iconics, apart from Lando whose stat block said that it was just a version of Lando that worked for the adventure and was not meant to be a holistic write-up of the character's full capabilities. The Rancor Group folks ran into the same issue when creating stats for the Rebels crew for their Spark of Rebellion fan sourcebook.

As has been mentioned and you seem to cavalierly ignore, a lot of what Yoda can accomplish with the Force is based more upon the fact that he's purchased every single upgrade for the Force powers we see him use, meaning he gets a whole lot more mileage out of a couple of Force points than most PCs would, and doesn't need a huge handful of Force dice to do it.

Well he is pretty successful. his reliability with the force seems pretty high. He is pretty serene in his actions which makes me think he does not rely on the dark side to get his success. That points to him having enough force dice to roll to reliably do the things he does while having dice committed. and at the beginning of fights we see him committing those dice. And certainly having high skill in the force powers and associated skills is needed. but he also is rolling enough dice to access the white pips. Where as with Obiwan and Anakin I see far more aggression and anger.popping up. So I think they do use to darkside to be successful.

9 hours ago, Garran said:

Assuming that it's high is just as unsupported as assuming that it's low.

5 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

And what evidence beyond power-gaming presumptions do you have that Yoda's Force Rating is so high?

I've laid out my evidence already. The evidence is that the developers have shown us, via Suljo Warde's stats, that Force Rating 5 is within the normal range of stats for an average Jedi. Yoda is clearly portrayed in the films as far above an average Jedi in every way when it comes to the Force. So the default assumption should be that his Force-related stats are all outside the average range.

The burden of proof lies with those who are arguing that the head of the Jedi council, most powerful Jedi of the Rise of the Empire era, has a Force Rating (or Willpower characteristic, or any Force-related stat) no greater than that of an average Jedi knight who was never even promoted to master.

If you think Yoda's FR is 6, that's fine. Feels a little low to me, but I have no objection to that number. But his FR is not 5. It is not as low as the FR of any average Jedi knight.

This idea is pretty crazy, but here me out: there are many good ways to build Yoda as an NPC (or a PC).

And the varying ways a GM might be using Yoda in their campaign also opens up the options for a good Yoda build.

If Yoda is just projecting himself through the Force to a hidden Jedi Temple on Lothal to offer guidance and instruction (and test) Ezra Bridger he can get away with a FR: 0.

If Yoda is training you on Dagobah and has to show you how it's done because you crashed your ship in a swamp he can get away with a FR: 5 (or less).

If you want Yoda to tag along with the PCs and really show them how it's done taking on the Empire then you might want a FR 6+. You could do it justice with a lower FR too.

When adding Yoda to your campaign his requisite FR is the least of your considerations (in my opinion), just pick something "high" and go with it.

I like Daeglan's comments that what we see of Yoda using he's not gaining much if any Conflict. Seems right to me.

But we also have an introspective Yoda talking to Ezra about the failings of the Jedi - Yoda included - that indicate that Yoda was not "above" gaining Conflict himself.

I'm going to including Yoda at some point in my own campaign and I'm not sure how I'm going to portray him - whether or not he's the kind of Jedi who only very rarely uses DS pips or not (and can therefore get away with a "lower" FR). I am tempted to create Yoda with a low enough FR that he'd be using Conflict to power his abilities on occasion - at least as a demonstration that even the great Jedi Master Yoda does it too so the Jedi PCs might loosen up a bit about using them (my Jedi PCs are good about not being too terrified of DS pips and treating them as Dark Side Ultimate Corruption Now You're Evil Points).

FR: 6 feels about right to me. Means he's pretty much guaranteed to pull of almost anything he tries to do (with a little Conflict). But perhaps 7 since he's one of the most powerful Force beings ever.

I don't think he needs a lot of FR to keep in reserve for committing dice. He doesn't need to use them for Sense because he'd have a really high Adversary.

4 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

The burden of proof lies with those who are arguing that the head of the Jedi council, most powerful Jedi of the Rise of the Empire era, has a Force Rating (or Willpower characteristic, or any Force-related stat) no greater than that of an average Jedi knight who was never even promoted to master.

Actually, there is something that would count as evidence - IIRC the developers did a demo game in which they played the council members. Does anyone know what the FRs were for the characters as they were designed there? That's about as close as anyone will get to 'canon' answers for the system, unless there's an official writeup at some point.

That was Keith Kappel (a contract writer) who gave Yoda FR 4

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/245279-council-level-adventure/#comment-2701931

That's how the argument started actually--the FR of that version of Yoda was 5, and I was arguing that it was too low because of the example of Warde.

What can I say, devs make mistakes. Maybe they made a mistake when they set Warde's FR so high. I wouldn't have any objection to someone who felt that Warde's FR should be lower and Yoda's should be 5. The problem I have is with the idea that there's nothing wrong with two characters having the same FR. To me, that's like Chewie having the same Brawn as a regular stormtrooper.

2 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

That was Keith Kappel (a contract writer) who gave Yoda FR 4

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/245279-council-level-adventure/#comment-2701931

I think he might have been remembering wrong in that thread. In the Order 66 episode on high-level play (which I just listened to three nights ago) he says Yoda's FR was 5.

I guess for me the main issue when deciding FR is how effective and reliable do I want the NPC to be, what powers do they have and what FR is needed to support them? I don't try to determine their place in the Force ability pecking order.

It's been a while since I looked at Warde and I haven't run Chronicles (yet) but maybe the devs thought he needed a FR 5 to power his force abilities as a Nemesis going up against a whole party all by himself.

Jewel of Yavin spoiler:

29 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

I've laid out my evidence already. The evidence is that the developers have shown us, via Suljo Warde's stats, that Force Rating 5 is within the normal range of stats for an average Jedi. Yoda is clearly portrayed in the films as far above an average Jedi in every way when it comes to the Force. So the default assumption should be that his Force-related stats are all outside the average range.

The burden of proof lies with those who are arguing that the head of the Jedi council, most powerful Jedi of the Rise of the Empire era, has a Force Rating (or Willpower characteristic, or any Force-related stat) no greater than that of an average Jedi knight who was never even promoted to master.

If you think Yoda's FR is 6, that's fine. Feels a little low to me, but I have no objection to that number. But his FR is not 5. It is not as low as the FR of any average Jedi knight.

You've laid out your presumptions , which is not the same thing as evidence.

Also, you're making a presumption that Warde is an "average Jedi Knight" when the very fact that he developed his own unique Force power paints him as being anything but average .

Force Rating alone does not a Jedi Knight or Jedi Master make, which is something you appear to be completely unable to grasp, much as another poster over in the EotE GM forum didn't initially grasp that only having 5 ranks in the Lightsaber skill didn't make you immune to enemy attacks (something that is the domain of talents in this system).

For instance, Luke is probably Force Rating 3 at the absolute best by the end of RotJ, and yet has become a Jedi Knight in all but name when he finally confronts Vader, and is more likely FR2 with both dice committed to Sense for most of that fight (he probably didn't have the offensive control upgrade during the Bespin duel, making do with just raw skill ranks). His daddy Anakin probably had a fairly high Force Rating during most of the Clone Wars what with being a prodigy in terms of his Force potential, but he never proceeds to the rank of Master due to his general lack of maturity; a case could well be made that he lacked the proper maturity to be counted as a Jedi Knight, and only got promoted from Padawan because of the Clone Wars and the Order's dire need for Knights to lead the Clone Troopers, and that during peacetime he'd have either remained Obi-Wan's Padawan for several more years or been washed out due to lacking the proper mindset to be a Jedi Knight.

There have been Jedi Masters who sat on the Council who were not Force powerhouses, and there have been Force powerhouses who never once sat on the Council. Obi-Wan certainly isn't considered to be your "average" Jedi and yet he's never noted to be exceptionally gifted in terms of his Force abilities, but instead possesses the wisdom and general maturity to earn a seat on the Jedi Council as a respected peer, a stark contrast to Anakin who only got a seat as a political favor from Palpatine whose motive was to sow even more distrust between Anakin and the Council.

As myself and others have shown, Force mastery is far more than a case of simply slinging around large numbers of Force dice, but is instead more associated with what Force powers one has purchased and how many upgrades they've acquired. A PC with FR 4, the Move power, 1 range upgrade, 1 strength upgrade, and the hurl objects control upgrade might be able to do impressive things every once in a while, but the PC with FR 2 that's purchased all 3 range upgrades, all 4 strength upgrades, and the control upgrades to hurl objects, tear objects loose, and manipulate objects with fine control is going to be able to do stuff that's just as if not more impressive than the first guy, and be able to do it on a far more reliable basis. On the screen, take a wild guess as to which one looks to be the more powerful Force user to the viewer?

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Well he is pretty successful. his reliability with the force seems pretty high.

And that is the opening part of the trap I mentioned earlier with a number of d20 fan builds and the d6 official stats.

A better explanation is that rather than Yoda simply rolling huge handfuls of dice so that he gets the mathematical average result desired, instead by virtue of being a principle character he's got much better results, bucking the norm and rolling exceptionally high results. Classic example is Luke's shot at the Death Star exhaust port in ANH; a lot of folks tend to assume that Luke needs to be a super-awesome shot so that it's pretty much a sure thing that he can't miss the shot, when the reality would probably be closer to Luke having gotten a very lucky roll; in d20 terms he rolled a natural 20, in this game's mechanics he flipped a Destiny Point to ensure that he was rolling as many proficiency dice as possible and succeeded on the shot with a Triumph, the later of which is what the GM decided when creating the scenario ahead of time was what was needed to have the shot go in as opposed to just impacting on the surface, and in FATE terms he rolled straight plusses while also spending Fate points to invoke aspects to push his total into stratosphere.

In the case of Force dice, you can probably figure that Yoda's rolling double lightside more often than not, which again makes him look more powerful than your typical PC because most players don't tend to roll all that well.

I've got a FR1 Shii-Cho Knight that would seem to be a very powerful Force user for his age (barely 20), but that's only because my dice have a tendency to roll really well, which more often than not gives me two Force points to work with when the mathematical average would suggest that I'd only have 1 Force point to work with, and that only if I used a dark side pip.

17 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

And that is the opening part of the trap I mentioned earlier with a number of d20 fan builds and the d6 official stats.

A better explanation is that rather than Yoda simply rolling huge handfuls of dice so that he gets the mathematical average result desired, instead by virtue of being a principle character he's got much better results, bucking the norm and rolling exceptionally high results.

This rationale is fine for some of the characters, including Luke's Death Star shot, because in the context of the universe they are new to the game, or "fresh characters". However, it doesn't work for characters that are established in universe as being more capable, because you're ignoring the assumed context. Yoda is "the master", it's not like his pulling the X-Wing out of the swamp, or anything else he ever did with confidence, was ever in doubt. It's like saying "we never saw Obiwan do any trigonometry, so he probably sucks at math"...something that would ignore the whole in-universe point of the Jedi Order to create broadly educated and capable diplomats, problem solvers, and, if it comes to it, defenders.

I'd say ignoring context is a trap of its own.

Donovan, please stop misrepresenting my view. I have always made clear that I agree with you that Force Rating is only one aspect of Force ability. My view is that Yoda is superior to Warde in every aspect of Force ability, not just FR.

1 hour ago, whafrog said:

This rationale is fine for some of the characters, including Luke's Death Star shot, because in the context of the universe they are new to the game, or "fresh characters". However, it doesn't work for characters that are established in universe as being more capable, because you're ignoring the assumed context. Yoda is "the master", it's not like his pulling the X-Wing out of the swamp, or anything else he ever did with confidence, was ever in doubt. It's like saying "we never saw Obiwan do any trigonometry, so he probably sucks at math"...something that would ignore the whole in-universe point of the Jedi Order to create broadly educated and capable diplomats, problem solvers, and, if it comes to it, defenders.

I'd say ignoring context is a trap of its own.

If I were saying that Yoda should only be Force Rating 3, you might have a point.

I've not once said Yoda isn't a powerful Force user, only argued against the presumption that Yoda being a powerful Force user must automatically means he's got an insanely high Force Rating, or that other individuals who aren't placed on such a high pedestal as the space frog can't themselves have similar Force Ratings. For all we know, Mace Windu and Yoda might have identical Force Ratings, as Windu's been noted to be no slouch when it comes to the Force himself, and yet Windu is several centuries Yoda's junior. Under DaverWattra's stance, Mace and Yoda having equivalent Force Ratings is apparently blasphemy of the highest order. And by extension of his argument, then Palaptine must be even more powerful and thus have a higher Force Rating than Yoda because we see him make constant displays of power that make Yoda look weak by comparison.

Of course, by your own words just because we never see Yoda actually lift anything bigger than an X-Wing doesn't mean that one can automatically assume that any Force user can ever lift anything that's bigger than Silhouette 3. Or that the Jedi mind trick cannot work on multiple people at the same time, even though on the screen we've only seen Jedi mind tricks work on one person at a time.

Again, you're putting words in my mouth. Windu is the second highest ranking council master and is portrayed as a very powerful Jedi. Although I would say Yoda's FR is probably one higher, I have no problem with someone who thinks those two are equal.

I think Yoda and Palpatine are probably equal, or at most one point apart. I can see a good argument either way.

What I cannot accept is that any of these three legendary characters is equal in any respect to Joe Blow Jedi knight.

I think the difference here is a matter of interpretation, and personally, I agree with Wafrog and Daver on this. Yoda definitely has a higher Force rating than a 5. It's not simply a matter of using what he gets, but rather how consistently he does so. Even with a FR 4, I have had a hard time consistently getting enough LSPs to really power Force powers, yet Yoda consistently manages to easily use the Force for a lot of different abilities, without tapping into the Dark Side (which has been explicitly established in canon that he would never do). This points to an extremely high FR combined with a lot of Force powers and upgrades for each. I'd put him and Palpatine on equal footing here too, with Mace Windu a close second. So a 6 or 7 FR is not all that excessive, and IMO certainly appropriate particularly given the old chart from the EotE Beta. . I wouldn't go as high as 8 though.

I agree that a 6 or 7 is reasonable. Though I do think you could really get away with using a FR 5. That's a guaranteed minimum 5 force points which is plenty to power and force power, especially if you've got upgrades. Mechanics wise 5 is likely sufficient but settings wise higher than 5 is justified.

Though I do find the notion that Yoda would never "tap into the Dark Side" by gaining Conflict to be unrealistic. Yoda - when confronting the Sith Lord who destroyed the Jedi Order and the Republic and is shooting lightning at him and throwing the senate at him didn't have a single momentary flash of anger, hatred or fear? Such a being doesn't have any humanity and isn't a very good character. He may let go of such things quickly and easily and doesn't succumb to them but he does experience them. In Yoda's reflections to Ezra he seemed to think he'd been seduced by the dark side to some degree.

5 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I agree that a 6 or 7 is reasonable. Though I do think you could really get away with using a FR 5. That's a guaranteed minimum 5 force points which is plenty to power and force power, especially if you've got upgrades.

Though I do find the notion that Yoda would never "tap into the Dark Side" by gaining Conflict to be unrealistic. Yoda - when confronting the Sith Lord who destroyed the Jedi Order and the Republic and is shooting lightning at him and throwing the senate at him didn't have a single momentary flash of anger, hatred or fear? Such a being doesn't have any humanity and isn't a very good character. In Yoda's reflections to Ezra he seemed to think he'd been seduced by the dark side to some degree.

There's a difference between having a "momentary flash" of anger or fear, and actually tapping into it . That is where using Dark Side points come in. By using DSPs you are actively tapping into those emotions, and this is what Yoda would never do. That is why I say he has a FR of at least a 6 minimum, more likely a 7. It is because those are the Force ratings which would almost certainly guarantee enough Force Points to use any number of powers and upgrades without ever having to use a DSP . The same with Palpatine never having to use Light Side points. the higher the range, the more of each you're likely to get, and, therefore, should consistently be able to use whichever FPs you need, given your Light Side/Dark Side "alignment" within the force.

27 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

There's a difference between having a "momentary flash" of anger or fear, and actually tapping into it . That is where using Dark Side points come in. By using DSPs you are actively tapping into those emotions, and this is what Yoda would never do. That is why I say he has a FR of at least a 6 minimum, more likely a 7. It is because those are the Force ratings which would almost certainly guarantee enough Force Points to use any number of powers and upgrades without ever having to use a DSP . The same with Palpatine never having to use Light Side points. the higher the range, the more of each you're likely to get, and, therefore, should consistently be able to use whichever FPs you need, given your Light Side/Dark Side "alignment" within the force.

I don't think there's much of a distinction there. I still think any character - including Yoda - is not so inhumanely perfect so as to never ever gain Conflict by using dark side pips. A character like Yoda could stay at 100 Morality and still gain Conflict here and there.

I'd also argue that canon has not clearly established Yoda as perfect as you describe him and there are instances where it could be reasonably argued it's shown to not be true (particularly in Clone Wars and Rebels). Though the medium of the moves and TV shows are not very good at giving a clear picture of the inner life of characters I still think it's the tougher argument to make that Yoda is absolutely (and "non-humanly") perfect.

1 minute ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I don't think there's much of a distinction there. I still think any character - including Yoda - is not so inhumanely perfect so as to never ever gain Conflict by using dark side pips. A character like Yoda could stay at 100 Morality and still gain Conflict here and there.

I'd also argue that canon has not clearly established Yoda as perfect as you describe him and there are instances where it could be reasonably argued it's shown to not be true (particularly in Clone Wars and Rebels). Though the medium of the moves and TV shows are not very good at giving a clear picture of the inner life of characters I still think it's the tougher argument to make that Yoda is absolutely (and "non-humanly") perfect.

"Perfect"? No. But "in control" of his emotions? Yes. That's the key here. Yoda doesn't let his emotions get the better of him. His only real "failing" was in believing that he didn't have a Dark Side at all. The test on Dagobah cleared that up pretty quick. However, just because he has a Dark Side within him does not mean he has to give in to it. The fact is that he has the Will to not give into it, and yet still manage to consistently use the Force however he needs to, at whatever power level.

So "being in control" but not "perfect" means no Conflict from DS pips ever?

A character using DS pips has lost control of their emotions?

1 minute ago, Jedi Ronin said:

So "being in control" but not "perfect" means no Conflict from DS pips ever?

A character using DS pips has lost control of their emotions?

In a manner of speaking, yes . A person using Dark Side Points is giving into his darker emotions to use the Force, even if only briefly, and l etting them control him , not the other way around. He is allowing himself to lose control . If the canon shows us anything, it's that Yoda does not lose control of his temper, nor tap into it. He never gives in to his "dark side". He is extremely well disciplined in this regard. Does Yoda make mistakes? Yes. He is not infallible, but he does not give into his dark side, and (in game terms) would never use Dark Side Points to power his abilities.

You're definition is a bit circular there. And it still doesn't make practical sense. So a PC spending DS pips is losing their temper?

Sidious wasn't losing his temper when fighting Yoda. He was cackling.

When Anakin was being tested Yoda said he felt much fear in him. Anakin wasn't losing his temper or control in any way. He was simply feeling something.

10 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

You're definition is a bit circular there. And it still doesn't make practical sense. So a PC spending DS pips is losing their temper?

Sidious wasn't losing his temper when fighting Yoda. He was cackling.

When Anakin was being tested Yoda said he felt much fear in him. Anakin wasn't losing his temper or control in any way. He was simply feeling something.

Anakin most certainly was not in control of his fear, which is why Yoda brought it up, and the boy did lose his temper over it with is outburst, and this was a problem Anakin never got over. He never really learned to control his fear. This is why he ultimately fell to the Dark Side. Palpatine thrives on hate and malice , the very epitome of the Dark Side. He revels in those emotions, and encourages others to do the same. He is the polar opposite of Yoda.