Getting FR to 2 early on is a reasonable goal since it gives you access to more pips with which to apply upgrades and a better chance of getting at least some light side pips so that you don't have to flip DPs and take strain as often.
In the case of the Ascetic this is a little less necessary due to the 'freebie' points that they have access to. There are a few other options like this (the Sage also has One With The Universe).
Until you reach FR 2 you're usually best off with powers that either allow you to commit your force die to achieve an ongoing effect, or that allow you to add the die to skill checks Sense and Enhance
Once you have FR 2, standalone powers become reasonably effective. A loose guideline is that you want a FR one higher than the minimum before you start to develop a power. You'll still need to be choosy about which ones you go for since they cost XP and there are many other demands on it, but if you have a specific character theme in mind then you can probably work out a list of 2-3 core powers to focus on.
Force Rating
6 hours ago, DaverWattra said:So Suljo Warde has the same Force Rating as Yoda?
Since Yoda doesn't have official stats and probably never will, nobody will every know. Same with what Vader or the Emperor's respective Force Ratings are. All three individuals are, when compared to FaD PCs, plot devices that can accomplish whatever the story needs them to accomplish without having to bother with pesky things like rolling dice. Vader's one appearance in this RPG pretty much consists of "he shows up, and if the PCs get into a fight with him they get squashed, the end."
The PC build that Keith created was simply for a con module that is not affiliated with FFG in any way, shape, or form, and shouldn't have anything more read into it.
I meant that as a bit of a rhetorical question. Of course we don't have a FFG-canonical FR for Yoda, but we do know the FRs of some other characters like Warde.
I take it to be obvious that Yoda has a stronger connection to the Force than a talented, but not Master-level, Jedi like Warde. Whatever Yoda's actual FR is, I think we have enough information to know it should be higher than 5.
Edited by DaverWattraDo we know that? What all do we see Yoda do? Lift a big ol' pipe, lift those floaty senator things, stop some force lightning, tune in on Luke's farseeing and lift an x-wing. How much more past 5 dice does he need to pull all that off?
He doesn't, really. What he has going over most of the other characters is experience (in the standard-English sense), which is probably better modeled by higher ranks in things like Lore and Discipline. Luke's relative lack of the latter is highlighted several times, and not just by way of Force powers.
At FR 5, Yoda's player could easily decide he's filled out enough talent trees, and now it's time to fill out his skills and Force upgrades. Warde might say, "We both have the same Force Rating, we must be evenly matched."
"Oh, please. I have Willpower 6, Discipline 5, and have every upgrade for Move, Protect/Unleash, Sense, Foresee, and Seek. You have that one power maxed out and that's it. Step to this and you won't even need to use your special foresight, because you'll just see me pounding you into the ground like a tent-stake."
2 hours ago, The Grand Falloon said:At FR 5, Yoda's player could easily decide he's filled out enough talent trees, and now it's time to fill out his skills and Force upgrades. Warde might say, "We both have the same Force Rating, we must be evenly matched."
"Oh, please. I have Willpower 6, Discipline 5, and have every upgrade for Move, Protect/Unleash, Sense, Foresee, and Seek. You have that one power maxed out and that's it. Step to this and you won't even need to use your special foresight, because you'll just see me pounding you into the ground like a tent-stake."
Precisely this.
After a point, you get more bang for your XP buy buying up skill ranks and purchasing Force power upgrades than you do out of jacking up your Force Rating.
And with the length of time Yoda's been around, he's certainly maxed out more than a few Force power in addition to his Discipline. About the only thing Warde (who is written up so that the PCs can actually have a chance of defeating him in combat if it comes to that) might be able to do is see the curbstomping that's about to come his way. Or heck, with a filled out Move power, Yoda could just decide that Warde needs to be somewhere way over at Extreme Range for a time out (no damage, just pluck and literally move), and with Foresee and FR5 he's certainly going to act before Warde has a chance to respond to his premonitions.
3 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:After a point, you get more bang for your XP buy buying up skill ranks and purchasing Force power upgrades than you do out of jacking up your Force Rating.
Disagree. After a certain point, increasing your FR allows you to commit mass quantities of Force dice for extremely powerful effects (Enhance, Suppress, Sense, Bind, Battle Meditation) while still using Force powers at a high level of effectiveness. You should certainly invest in upgrading Force powers, but there's no point where the system makes it a mistake to invest in FR. And if you are a frequent lightsaber user--especially an Ataru fighter, as Yoda is--your ability in combat increases linearly with your FR. So do all of your skills buffed with Enhance, Influence, and Force talents.
11 hours ago, Desslok said:Do we know that? What all do we see Yoda do? Lift a big ol' pipe, lift those floaty senator things, stop some force lightning, tune in on Luke's farseeing and lift an x-wing. How much more past 5 dice does he need to pull all that off?
Sure, it's possible for a character with FR 5 to perform all the tasks we see Yoda perform in the movies, if they have lots of highly-upgraded Force powers.
It's also possible for a character with Brawn 2 or 3 to perform all the feats of strength we see Chewbacca perform, if that character had enough ranks in Athletics skill, Brawl, etc. But Chewie is clearly portrayed as one of the strongest characters in the Star Wars galaxy, so it would be absurd to set his Brawn stat that low.
For the same reason, it would be absurd to set Yoda's FR as low as that of any ordinary Jedi knight like Warde, because the movies clearly suggest that Yoda has the most powerful overall connection to the Force of anyone in the galaxy, with a handful of possible exceptions (Palpatine and the Skywalkers).
1 hour ago, DaverWattra said:Sure, it's possible for a character with FR 5 to perform all the tasks we see Yoda perform in the movies, if they have lots of highly-upgraded Force powers.
It's also possible for a character with Brawn 2 or 3 to perform all the feats of strength we see Chewbacca perform, if that character had enough ranks in Athletics skill, Brawl, etc. But Chewie is clearly portrayed as one of the strongest characters in the Star Wars galaxy, so it would be absurd to set his Brawn stat that low.
Says who? I'm sorry but I'm trying to remember any stupendous feats of strength that Chewbacca did in the films, and I can't think of a one. He did more shooting and fixing of things, than hand to hand fighting. The most I can recall is in Empire, when they were about to freeze Han. He knocked like, a few stormtroopers off a ledge (railing kill, it counts), and....yeah that's it. I would hardly call Chewbacca the poster wookie for "Pennacle of Physical Strength" based on his actions in the films.
Sure, we hear people SAY that wookies rip off arms when they get angry, but we never see it. So perhaps that's just an urban legend, like any other racially oriented myths, that are positive in nature, that the racial group doesn't argue, because it makes them look better.
1 minute ago, KungFuFerret said:
Says who? I'm sorry but I'm trying to remember any stupendous feats of strength that Chewbacca did in the films, and I can't think of a one. He did more shooting and fixing of things, than hand to hand fighting. The most I can recall is in Empire, when they were about to freeze Han. He knocked like, a few stormtroopers off a ledge (railing kill, it counts), and....yeah that's it. I would hardly call Chewbacca the poster wookie for "Pennacle of Physical Strength" based on his actions in the films.
Sure, we hear people SAY that wookies rip off arms when they get angry, but we never see it. So perhaps that's just an urban legend, like any other racially oriented myths, that are positive in nature, that the racial group doesn't argue, because it makes them look better.
Well, technically, Chewie does rip Uncar Plott's arm off in the novelization (and deleted scene) of The Force Awakens .
Just now, Tramp Graphics said:Well, technically, Chewie does rip Uncar Plott's arm off in the novelization (and deleted scene) of The Force Awakens .
So we're counting deleted scenes as canon now? So does that mean that Obi-Wan killed Luke's father, and not Anakin being his father? I mean, that was in a script at one point right? So it must be canon even if it didn't make it to the final product.
Sorry but no.
4 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:So we're counting deleted scenes as canon now? So does that mean that Obi-Wan killed Luke's father, and not Anakin being his father? I mean, that was in a script at one point right? So it must be canon even if it didn't make it to the final product.
Sorry but no.
It's in the novelization of the movie too. And that is consider canon.
24 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:Says who? I'm sorry but I'm trying to remember any stupendous feats of strength that Chewbacca did in the films, and I can't think of a one.
At this point I'm going to rest my case, and just point out that this is the sort of logic that's required to defend the "Yoda's FR isn't so high" point of view. Other people can judge for themselves whether Chewie's Brawn should really be limited to what's required in order to perform the feats of strength we see in the movies... and whether Yoda's Force Rating should be limited to the minimum number required to perform the exact actions we see him do.
10 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:At this point I'm going to rest my case, and just point out that this is the sort of logic that's required to defend the "Yoda's FR isn't so high" point of view. Other people can judge for themselves whether Chewie's Brawn should really be limited to what's required in order to perform the feats of strength we see in the movies... and whether Yoda's Force Rating should be limited to the minimum number required to perform the exact actions we see him do.
...rest your case? You've made no case. Everything Chewie did in the movies was doable by a regular person. We know this because it was done by an actual, regular person. You say the movies demonstrate his superhuman strength, I say I can't remember any that are above what a regular person could do, and you respond with "i rest my case", like it's some kind of mic drop moment?
As to the Yoda comment, your right, it is the same argument, because there is a difference in what 40+ years of fanboys have inflated in their imaginations about how powerful someone is, and how they are actually portrayed in the material. And, per the FFG rules, which is what the entire discussion is about, it's entirely doable to replicate what Yoda does with a relatively low FR. I know in our fanboy heads, we see him as being some Goku-esque character, who's FR is OVER 9000 or something, but that's just not true. From the very FIRST TIME we see Yoda actually use his magic, we see it tax him. Lifting the X-Wing wasn't easy for him, it clearly hurt and drained him. When he stopped that bit of machinery from crushing Anakin and Obi-Wan, we see him totally stop trying to use his lightsaber, ignore Dooku entirely, and struggle to catch it and redirect it. It's not like he just casually waved a hand and did all that stuff. It took effort. So no, he doesn't have some FR 9000 compared to everyone else, simply Because He's Yoda He is powerful, yes, but that's mostly from years of study and wisdom, which would easily translate to spending tons of XP to buy up force powers and skill ranks.
Exactly. Cite some examples from the movies where he might need 8, 10, 12 force dice? What exactly do we see him do that cant be covered by having a high discipline, lore, athletics, a handful of career trees and buying the complete force tree for TK, Farseeing and the Lightning deflection power.
Do or do not. There is no try when have enough force dice to always have the force points you need.
32 minutes ago, Desslok said:Exactly. Cite some examples from the movies where he might need 8, 10, 12 force dice? What exactly do we see him do that cant be covered by having a high discipline, lore, athletics, a handful of career trees and buying the complete force tree for TK, Farseeing and the Lightning deflection power.
I'm sorry, I must have misrepresented what I was trying to say. The argument you're correctly refuting is not the argument I made.
I'm not saying that we see Yoda do anything in the movies that cannot be done without more than 5 Force dice. I agree with you that that his actions in the movies aren't conclusive enough to settle the question.
The argument I was making was this:
--Suljo Warde is clearly portrayed in COTG as an average Jedi knight--highly talented at foresight, but aside from that, basically average
--"In this game. the ability to use the Force is represented by a character's Force rating." (FAD, p. 279)
--It is clearly implied in the movies that Yoda's ability to use the Force is greater than that of an average Jedi. So Yoda's Force rating must be greater than that of an average Jedi.
--Thus Yoda's Force rating is greater than Suljo Warde's FR of 5.
All I'm saying is that 5 is too low of a number for Yoda, given that FFG has established that an average Jedi like Warde can have FR as high as 5.
15 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:--"In this game. the ability to use the Force is represented by a character's Force rating." (FAD, p. 279)
No, we're still talking about the same thing. You are assuming that the force dice are the end all and be all of proficiency in the force. There is WAY more to it than that. If a player came up to me with six force dice and nothing in lore or discipline or any force powers or any other measure of being a Jedi and said "I am now a Jedi Master", I'd laugh in his face.
So yes, Warde and Yoda have the same amount of force dice because Yoda - by what we see on screen - doesn't need 16 force dice. He can accomplish what we see on screen with just a handful. What he does bring to the table is 900 years of XP also in talents and skills (that's not counting all the roll playing the road to mastery that Yoda's player has done along the way).
TL;DNR:
Warde = A
Yoda = A, but also B, C, D and E
Edited by Desslok15 minutes ago, Desslok said:No, we're still talking about the same thing. You are assuming that the force dice are the end all and be all of proficiency in the force.
Ah, I can see why it came across that way. I was focusing too much on FR to the exclusion of other things. But no, that is not my view.
My view is that Yoda is obviously portrayed as more proficient with the Force than the average Jedi, in every way that matters. So the following facts all strike me as obvious:
--Yoda has a higher Willpower score than an average Jedi like Warde
--Yoda has more ranks in Discipline than an average Jedi like Warde
--Yoda has more XP invested in Force powers than Warde
--Yoda has more Force talents than Warde
--Yoda has a higher FR than Warde
On 7/24/2017 at 11:46 AM, KungFuFerret said:
Says who? I'm sorry but I'm trying to remember any stupendous feats of strength that Chewbacca did in the films, and I can't think of a one. He did more shooting and fixing of things, than hand to hand fighting. The most I can recall is in Empire, when they were about to freeze Han. He knocked like, a few stormtroopers off a ledge (railing kill, it counts), and....yeah that's it. I would hardly call Chewbacca the poster wookie for "Pennacle of Physical Strength" based on his actions in the films.
Sure, we hear people SAY that wookies rip off arms when they get angry, but we never see it. So perhaps that's just an urban legend, like any other racially oriented myths, that are positive in nature, that the racial group doesn't argue, because it makes them look better.
We see him rip unkar plots arm off in a deleted scene
8 hours ago, Daeglan said:We see him rip unkar plots arm off in a deleted scene
It should be noted for the one naysayer that there is a difference between a deleted scene and something in a previous script. Most deleted scenes are just removed due to lack of pacing whereas script changes are for a change to the story.
As for Yoda's FR, we should remember both that by the time we see him in the prequels that he is old and has relatively low Agility, but that his style is Ataru and works off his Agility. It is well established in canon that he uses Force Enhance to boost his Agility for lightsaber combat. So when you see him using the force in the battle against Sidious in RotS, remember that he is committing FR to his Agility while still performing his Force stuff. So when figuring his needed rating, you have to add both the rating for his active abilities, enough Agility to match perhaps the best lightsaber combatant besides himself but who is in his prime, and so doesn't need to commit dice, and anything else he might be committing.
Also likely committed dice to sense. Possibly 2 one for offence one for defense. One for agility. I would put him at 7 or 8 force rating to allow for committed dice. Plus a lot in foresee and move and protect.
Also, how often do we see Yoda doing heavy lightsaber fighting and major Force usage at the same time?
At FR5, Yoda could easily commit two Force dice, one for each of Sense's Control Upgrades, and still have three Force dice left to use. With having purchases all of the upgrades for Move, Foresee, and Protect/Unleash, that lets him get a whole lot of mileage out of only a couple of Force Points.
At most, I'd put him at FR 6 if bothering to create him as an NPC, and figure that he did 2 dice for Sense, 2 dice for Enhance to increase his Agility to hyperactive bouncy-ball levels, and 2 dice left for general Force usage, and that he's got good luck at rolling double light side pips on those two dice.
3 hours ago, Daeglan said:Also likely committed dice to sense. Possibly 2 one for offence one for defense. One for agility. I would put him at 7 or 8 force rating to allow for committed dice. Plus a lot in foresee and move and protect.
This sounds right to me.
2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:At most, I'd put him at FR 6 if bothering to create him as an NPC, and figure that he did 2 dice for Sense, 2 dice for Enhance to increase his Agility to hyperactive bouncy-ball levels, and 2 dice left for general Force usage, and that he's got good luck at rolling double light side pips on those two dice.
I've noticed that in these "Yoda's FR is lower than you think" arguments, people tend to put the burden of proof on those who think Yoda's FR is higher than that of my 1,000-XP PC. I would think the opposite would be correct: even if there were no airtight knock-down argument that Yoda's FR is higher than my PC's, the burden of proof should be on those who think his FR is low, rather than those who think his FR is high.
Why begin from the assumption that Yoda's FR is low? What evidence do we have to suggest that it isn't as high as 7 or 8?
10 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:Also, how often do we see Yoda doing heavy lightsaber fighting and major Force usage at the same time?
Notably, in Episode 2 Dooku makes a distinction between a Force-based and a lightsaber-based duel, and the pair switches their focus from one to the other.