My friends and I bought into this game pretty hard. We each have full play sets of Awakenings and Spirit of Rebellion. We love the game, but don't love the direction we see it heading. If we look at the current meta, we see that you either need an extremely fast aggro deck OR a deck that can control an extremely fast aggro deck if you want to win. I'm speaking in general terms here, so I freely admit that there are other decks that are viable. In general though, it's fast aggro or control+slow aggro. Top tier games are frequently over by round 2-3. It's rare to see a competitive environment game go to time or to see a loss from decking. Useful cards deal fast damage or control fast damage. Everything else is situational and generally to be avoided.

CORE ISSUE #1 - Games are over too fast and the majority of cards in the current card pool aren't viable for competitive play.

CORE ISSUE #2 - There is a massive product shortage.

These two issues are combining in the following way... Given the massive product shortage, it's very hard for new players to get into this game at this point. Out local community isn't seeing any new blood. If a player is able to get a starter set and handful of packs, they build a deck, show up at the next event and get utterly crushed... never to be seen again. Store events have almost no room for casual play and the lack of product means you can't support both a competitive environment (where players tend to buy enough product for a full play set) and casual play (where players tend to buy a couple of packs at a time, here and there).

We're starting to think that this game isn't long term viable. The only fix we can think of is something like 60 cards decks and 50-60 points worth of characters. That would slow the games down and 'unfocus' the decks, but would make the product shortages even more of an issue. We're currently debating whether or not we want to buy any Empire at War.

Thoughts? Does this game have a real future or is it always going to be fast damage where games are effectively won by round two or three? New players coming in today won't have access to Awakenings or Spirit of Rebellion in any meaningful way, so the only real way to win is to have bought (impossible for new players) in early or spend $$$$$ on expensive, out of print cards.

13 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

...

These two issues are combining in the following way... Given the massive product shortage, it's very hard for new players to get into this game at this point. Out local community isn't seeing any new blood. If a player is able to get a starter set and handful of packs, they build a deck, show up at the next event and get utterly crushed... never to be seen again...

This is a problem that I don't think there is a solution for. Unfortunately, once someone is burned on a collectible game like this, they are not likely to return to it. I know that, locally, we have a bunch of great places with a bunch of great people that help newbies out and enjoy just playing, and not destroying their enemies.

Believe it or not, though, there are plenty of options for denying any particular meta play. I think the first thing new players should do is to focus on playing 20 event decks with as much common dice removal and control as possible. Just have them play whatever upgrades fit into their deck colors/faction.

So, I heard four complaints about the game:

1.) Too fast

2.) Not all cards are good

3.) Not enough product

4.) New players can't get Awakenings

For #1, I think this game is actually supposed to be a quick game, and I don't mind the meta being fast. The meta is always going to be something, right? Imagine if what was advertised as a "fast-paced, high-stakes battle for the fate of the Galaxy" with "gameplay [that is] fast and fluid". (Game Trade Magazine #200). I think the problem, if there is one, isn't the speed, it's the lack of back and forth. The same article also said "on his turn, each player may take a single action [etc, describes list of possible actions] Once that single action has been completed, the turn passes to the other player, allowing him to take a single action."

Complaints 2 and 4 apply to any CCG.

Complaint 3 will be handled, they had no idea the game would be this popular (FFG has never done a CCG before, they probably thought that would scare people.)

What games do you and your friends usually play? While this game is fun, as an X-Wing and Imperial Assault player, I find it's very different than other games I've seen. I want to give it time to develop its own personality and playstyle, and I'm not going to judge it. The other thing to keep in mind is that even if competitive play and tournaments have problems, casual play is still really, really fun!

As per Lukas, the game is only suppose to last a few rounds and be very fast pace. I think people got the wrong idea of the game from launch when there wasn't enough cards to really have a fast game.

So yeah, it is a game of small, fast games by design. Either you like that or you play Armada.

The problem with games going 2-3 rounds is that there's very little depth. There's no time or ability for anyone to mount a comeback. There are fewer decisions for players to make, which leads to a game more dominated by the randomness which is already there. This is one of the main problems with speed decks - if we're both running Fast Hands, our best dice will get through on the first pass, and that's entirely random. If I roll a natural 3 damage and you roll a blank, then reroll into a 3 that I remove... <shrug>

20-30 minutes would still make for a small, fast game, but it would at least allow some depth in play. If the standard expectation is dead characters after turn 2, there's no room for any variation in play and the game's going to get old fast.

The good news though is that there is plenty of room in the games design sandbox and lukas et al can certainly explore it as necessary.

- New possible dice faces

- lots of text room for character abilities.

- a costing chart that can be expanded upon

One thing I will say is that if you like a game at the start, give it to at least it's 5th set when the reaction design outnumbered the pre made sets before you start passing judgment.

I do agree that right now the game is fast but there is plenty of room to work with to slow it down. If they want introduce capital ships at some point, they will have to slow it down. Ramp can't exist if the entire meta is too fast.

I don't see any issues really with the core mechanics. I think they are solid. I do agree that getting new players into the game and encouraging them is difficult, not so much due to product availability (which I think has gotten much better), but due to their negative play experiences. In my area, I absolutely see the dynamic of experienced players using perfectly tuned tier 1 decks against new players with limited card pools. This is to be expected in a Store Championship, absolutely, or even in larger tournaments for the quarterly prize kits. But I see it time and again in casual weekly Destiny nights, leagues, etc.

I sometimes think this game suffers from a little bit of "Magic envy." Magic of course has a massive established tournament structure, world rankings, pro points, Planeswalker points, etc. etc. There are many great Destiny players (who would probably also excel at any other game) who would like a Magic type meritocracy (e.g. "I have 3 Pro Tour Top 8's, a GP win, and am a Silver Level Pro"), but at present the best they can claim is a SC win (still a great accomplishment) and "I went 4-0 at my last Destiny night." In short, I think the Destiny community is so focused on records and legitimacy that it does not promote formats/events to actually grow the community.

I am sure there are many areas and groups that do in fact try to foster and grow their player base, I just have not seen that in my area. My area seems to be about building a Destiny resume, so to speak.

Sorry for the ramble, I seldom do so. I think a well designed draft product and format would go a long way towards alleviating this. I hope this is in the works. Thanks!

You have described set design and distribution issues, neither of which are "core mechanics" of the game itself.

And not that it's taboo to discuss, but there are about a dozen threads that say pretty much exactly what you did.

The notion that the Destiny community is not growing isn't borne out by reality. It is growing and as we've seen with Spirit of Rebellion product has been a lot easier to get. Once FFG saw the issue Awakenings had staying in stock they not only radically boosted the Spirit printing (to the point where it is coming out in waves) but did another Awakenings printing. I also expect Empire At War will be easier to get too (in fact I got the Team Covenant notifications that preorder is open) today.

As to "speed", even with the speed cards our meta is still taking 5-6 rounds per game to complete. Can it get a bit non-interactive? Sometimes. But there are also play styles designed to beat that as well. I was playing heavy aggro (EMO Twins) but now that I have worked up a viable mill deck build it is both competitive and fun to play as well. For example, Poe-Maz can fall hard to a a good mill deck because it needs hands full of goodies to work its magic.

I played some social games last weekend. I played EMO, one opponent played three Death Troopers and the other FN/Dooku. No one had fast hands or even force speed. FN was the only Character with any action cheat based on his roll and resolve mechanic. We were laughing and having a great time playing. As such I am probably going to raise the issue with the guys at out social night and see what the reaction is, but I think a store ban on Fast Hands and Force Speed will make an environment that ensures the back and forth is maintained. You can action cheat with FN, Dooku, Maz and Rey but they as characters can be countered by an opponent who targets them (or not) as the situation demands.

I also tend to think that playing worlds with just a single set and , then going to store championships with just two sets is not helping the competitive play versus casual play at all. Perhaps we'll see a lull in competitive play soon?

Make multiplayer a thing, many cards and characters that don't work in 1v1 games may work better in 1v3 (4 player) games. Again this is being affected by the position we are in in the competition cycle.

I also think maybe have a chat to your TO and see if he can run two layers to your tournaments, one for the "hardcore" players and another that puts the casual players together. This may require more thought on implementation and execution, but you are at least not going to scare away new players.

I'm with you on #1. And that was not the case with just Awakenings. I for one am sad it is being sped up and power-mongered I liked it casual and a bit more drawn out, as a fun experience with a friend.

17 hours ago, Mep said:

As per Lukas, the game is only suppose to last a few rounds and be very fast pace. I think people got the wrong idea of the game from launch when there wasn't enough cards to really have a fast game.

So yeah, it is a game of small, fast games by design. Either you like that or you play Armada.

This pretty much sums up our issues. We liked the back and forth and somewhat slow buildup of the initial Awakenings release. We don't at all like the current 'you know who is gonna win by the end of turn 3' meta. It sounds like the developer wants the game to be super quick. I don't want to use the term bait and switch because it has a malicious connotation, but we were definitely drawn in by a game that effectively ceased to exist once the first expansion came out.

I think we're going to let the store community die and just pursue other card games where the games take more than 5-10 minutes.

We're basically all at a point where we totally regret the money we spent on Spirit of Rebellion. We also can't, in all good conscience, recommend the game to new players as it's completely unreasonable to expect that they'll be able to get their hands on Awakenings or Spirit of Rebellion cards in any meaningful way without spending tons and tons of money. Not having access to the bulk of the currently available cards means new players will be at a huge disadvantage.

4 hours ago, KrisWall said:

I don't want to use the term bait and switch because it has a malicious connotation

Bloody Vader Raider...

@KrisWall If you feel betrayed now, you'll be throwing stuff once they do rotation. Most of these games change when the new expansion hits. Even magic's intro type decks play very different than say a competitive modern deck.

The nice thing about constructed deck games is you can make two deck that play slow and have those decks face off. There is a difference between the kitchen table games and the tournament games.

With that said I do feel there is space for a quick pace card game where you play several games in the span of 30 minutes. There are other card games that take more time. Netrunner is certainly a slower game that may offer an experience more at the pace you are looking for. Also, there is that "other" star wars card game that FFG makes that no one seems to realize exists.

On 7/19/2017 at 3:23 PM, Buhallin said:

The problem with games going 2-3 rounds is that there's very little depth.

Yeah, I think this is a game for people with ADD. It even has the flashing moving dice to capture the attention. 2-3 rounds is about all it is good for. Really the first round should decide the game. I am not saying this is a good thing, it is just what this game is.

What they didn't do from the start is come out and say that is what this game was going to end up being. They have at least said that is what this game is now though. The nice thing with rotation, is that this game can evolve over time, so that core mechanic is in place. They can actually slow the game down, given time. I am not saying that is the direction this game will go in, just the capability is there.

I've never played the Star Wars LCG but after playing netrunner and seeing the direction this game is going, that SW LCG is looking rather attractive.

Destiny is totally a game for people with ADD. On that note, I'm now looking through my new Star Wars LCG Core Set.

1 hour ago, Mep said:

The nice thing with rotation, is that this game can evolve over time, so that core mechanic is in place. They can actually slow the game down, given time.

I don't think this is realistic. If they're going to rotate out the speed, it won't happen for at least 6 more sets. Since speed is obviously powerful, that would mean that the next six sets are underpowered, or overpowered in a completely different direction in order to allow the new sets to compete with the speed of the current. Or, they just plain underpower the next six sets to let things correct to a new baseline. Raise your hand if you think FFG will put out six undesirable sets to fix the balance? Anyone?

I think they are still at a place where they could rein it in with some well-placed errata and maybe a banning of only 2-3 cards. The bigger question is whether they think there's actually a problem. There is at least some evidence that they're waking up, but I'm not convinced they have either the desire or capability to truly balance this game.

FFG does not have a history of banning cards. They have and will continue to etra. I expect to see a neutral support soon that procs every time the opponent takes an extra action. Simple balancing through new cards.

1 minute ago, Stone37 said:

FFG does not have a history of banning cards. They have and will continue to etra. I expect to see a neutral support soon that procs every time the opponent takes an extra action. Simple balancing through new cards.

Well that explains how you pay for 6 cost supports.

No cards need to be banned. As already mentioned, we'll probably see a Support or Upgrade whose function serves to hamper Action cheats.

6 hours ago, Buhallin said:

I don't think this is realistic. If they're going to rotate out the speed, it won't happen for at least 6 more sets.

Yeah, it will take time for them to change the focus. I am sure they can have a desirable set without printing a lot of extra action cards in a set. Those extra action cards won't go anywhere and still get played until they rotate out. That is of course assuming they think it is a problem, which they may not. The better counter would be a game effect giving an advantage when your opponent takes more than one action per turn. The problem is, this game will be very slow to change in that regard since their production time is so long. They may have a fix already in place, we just won't see it until March.

1 hour ago, Mep said:

They may have a fix already in place, we just won't see it until March.

Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not going to keep paying the cost of this game through three more sets on the extremely optimistic hope that they'll fix it rather than mess it up worse. They've got EaW to show me they've got a clue.

3 hours ago, Buhallin said:

Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not going to keep paying the cost of this game through three more sets on the extremely optimistic hope that they'll fix it rather than mess it up worse. They've got EaW to show me they've got a clue.

Pretty much this. I just don't see EaW really fixing things. I'm not even sure how you'd balance things. I don't think EaW can remove the speed elements from the game. Even adding a penalty via extra cards is a crap shoot because I'd need to draw that card and play it. By that time, I may very well have lost.

To say that there's a product shortage but that you own everything. While I agree the action cheating has almost ruined that game. I'm still going to give them a chance to fix it

4 minutes ago, ozmodon said:

To say that there's a product shortage but that you own everything. While I agree the action cheating has almost ruined that game. I'm still going to give them a chance to fix it

I own everything, but will have nobody to play with unless product shortages are resolved as it's challenging to get new players to buy into the game when that involves spending hundreds on ebay.