13 minutes ago, Rawls said:

I can see how this would be fun from a fan competition stand point. But what in-setting reason could possibly motivate such a position. To make fighting for such a position worthwhile, it would have to wield real power over the other clans (like the real world Shogun). But if it did, once you were kicked out, why would those who kicked you out let you lick your wounds? Why wouldn't they focus on crushing you before fighting amongst themselves for the power?

It would be like the great powers allowing Napolean to continue ruling France after Waterloo.

The other clans aren't allied against the character, they aren't even allied against the Shogun. The prize of being the Shogun is that you are the military adviser to the Emperor and command his resources. The Shogun doesn't take over all of the lands, they just command a position of respect and influence over all of the clans. Each clan would want that position for themselves and wouldn't care who was there before - since there is always a person currently there to contend with.

Napolean isn't comparable really because the position he occupied was created by him, and died with him, there was no continuance. Consider it like the US Presidency - every 4 years it has a chance to change, and once someone is out they aren't targeted by the opposition. They aren't personally hated, it just comes with the territory of being president. Which ever side didn't vote for you will hate you. After you pass out of office there may still be jokes and minor grudges, but no one is going to waste political capital attacking Bush sr or Eisenhower except as they relate to the current party in power.

Just now, shosuko said:

The other clans aren't allied against the character, they aren't even allied against the Shogun. The prize of being the Shogun is that you are the military adviser to the Emperor and command his resources. The Shogun doesn't take over all of the lands, they just command a position of respect and influence over all of the clans. Each clan would want that position for themselves and wouldn't care who was there before - since there is always a person currently there to contend with.

Napolean isn't comparable really because the position he occupied was created by him, and died with him, there was no continuance. Consider it like the US Presidency - every 4 years it has a chance to change, and once someone is out they aren't targeted by the opposition. They aren't personally hated, it just comes with the territory of being president. Which ever side didn't vote for you will hate you. After you pass out of office there may still be jokes and minor grudges, but no one is going to waste political capital attacking Bush sr or Eisenhower except as they relate to the current party in power.

Is this a position acquired by force through warfare? If so, I don't think your analogy works very well. If it isn't acquired by force, I don't see how it could wield much real power over the other clans. It would be a glorified Emerald Champion.

24 minutes ago, Rawls said:

Is this a position acquired by force through warfare? If so, I don't think your analogy works very well. If it isn't acquired by force, I don't see how it could wield much real power over the other clans. It would be a glorified Emerald Champion.

The Emperor would name the person who is given these positions. The Shogun is a "war adviser" and commands the Emperors army, and gives certain dictates about war in Rokugan, but they don't take this position by taking over any clan / land. This means the Lion don't necessarily have to take over the Unicorn lands to gain power - instead the Emperor recognizes their ability and can name them for this position. Likewise if the Unicorn have won favor and shown valor in combat, the Emperor may name them instead.

The position is a contentious one because everyone would be stirring the pot to defame the person in power, and support their own candidate. The Emperor could re-name who has that position on a regular basis. This mirrors what would happen with the other political roles in which certain people are put in front of the Emperor's view and in the best light so that when he names who does what their name comes to mind. The 4 positions I mentioned before would all work in the same ways, and can serve as a storytelling device to lead us through the different wars within Rokugan from different perspectives. This also gives a reason why no one would actually try to de-throne Hantei - because every clan has their chance to join in power with Hantei by acquiring his favor. The Emperor's power is defined more by naming the power houses of Rokugan than himself being a powerhouse.

This system already exists in the Emerald Champion, but the role is less focused or refined.

Anyway - idk what FFG is actually going to do, these are just my thoughts as I await the real-release

15 minutes ago, Rawls said:

I can see how this would be fun from a fan competition stand point. But what in-setting reason could possibly motivate such a position. To make fighting for such a position worthwhile, it would have to wield real power over the other clans (like the real world Shogun). But if it did, once you were kicked out, why would those who kicked you out let you lick your wounds? Why wouldn't they focus on crushing you before fighting amongst themselves for the power?

It would be like the great powers allowing Napolean to continue ruling France after Waterloo.

It's a good question with a good analogy. Let me try to explain a little better here.

The position of Shogun exists, by Imperial decree, over all the clans. Whomever holds that position gets to micromanage and interfere with the other clans' business. Clearly, this is intolerable for those clans. Even if they started off by liking the person who held that office, it won't last.

Let's say that Kisada is the Shogun. He now has the ability to issue orders directly to the military units of the other clans, bypassing their chain of command, or replace their officers with ones he prefers or even with Hida officers he trusts. Given that it's Kisada, he'll use this to march those forces onto the Wall. Every other clan champion would object to this, and would try to oust him from the position of Shogun, because as long as Kisada has that title then you have very little power over your own clan. However, the only way to oust him is to replace him with someone else. Let's say you and the other daimyos pick Yokuni to replace him. The moment you do that, Kisada goes home and stops being a threat, and Yokuni starts being all up in your business. Any energy spent kicking Kisada further is wasted; you should be treating him as your ally against Yokuni.

The smart move for Yokuni would be either to leave the Shogunate vacant, or else agree to not micromanage everyone else's stuff. However, the Emperor does not permit either of these options. There must be a Shogun, and that Shogun is going to be accountable for every little thing that goes wrong in Rokugan. Yokuni's going to have to give weekly reports explaining what he's doing about whatever the issue of the week is. Pirates raiding the southern Crane coastline? That's his problem now, not Hotaru's problem. Inadequate agricultural development in the Lion hinterland? The Emperor didn't ask Toturi to deal with it, he asked Yokuni.

Yokuni's new job requires him to behave in a way that's intolerable to his former allies against Kisada. Soon enough, they'll turn on him; and the moment someone succeeds then they become the big target in turn.

The winning move for the clans is either to leave the role empty, or accept it while ignoring the Emperor's commands. However, these are both impossible: their ambition precludes them from the first and their culture as samurai precludes them from the second. The only thing for them to do is to fight endlessly.

As L5R players this is what we want them to do.

1 hour ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

It's a good question with a good analogy. Let me try to explain a little better here.

The position of Shogun exists, by Imperial decree, over all the clans. Whomever holds that position gets to micromanage and interfere with the other clans' business. Clearly, this is intolerable for those clans. Even if they started off by liking the person who held that office, it won't last.

Let's say that Kisada is the Shogun. He now has the ability to issue orders directly to the military units of the other clans, bypassing their chain of command, or replace their officers with ones he prefers or even with Hida officers he trusts...

The writers can obviously do what they want, but this seems to me like a total nonstarter. The only way to wield this sort of power over another clan would be to defeat them in war. Hell, even feudal lords in the real world didn't have that much power over their more-powerful vassals.

Hell, in Rokugan, even the Emperor himself doesn't have that much authority over the Major Clans.

I feel the the original story gets way more flak then its deserves, and for the wrong reasons.

First off I never had a problem with the Coup, Clan Wars or Day of Thunder as story-lines on their own. The problem IMHO was the way tournaments were handled by AEG, and the fact that AEG wrote a clear ending to the game during the Clan Wars cycle not knowing that the game would become the second most popular CCG of the time.

The main problem with tournaments to me during the early days was how much control the CCG had over the story. CCGs at their core are competitive games where story doesn't matter and you build decks to win. If this means you play your phoenix deck by corrupting dragons or having Onis then so be it. So this led to some weird stories based off decks designed to game the system to win. Later in the story AEG changed the tournament format to win chose a story but some of the damage had already been done by that time.

Now from what I have heard, and it could be wrong FFG has the story laid out already and tournaments will just effect some of the personal stories with its overall arc. This sounds good to me but we will see.

On to the stories

Scorpion Clan Coup: this to me has to happen if from what I can tell they are keeping the prehistory intact. The fact that the Scorpions are a starting faction is even better for this IMHO because it will allow players to help mold the Coup and allow Scorpion players to be more invested in their clan then ever before.

Possible story change: Maybe the Scorpions splinter into two group with one desiding that their loyalty to the emperor is greater then that to Shoju. Maybe Shoju's forces manage to hold off the other clans, and you have a real Clan War between supporters of Shoju and the Emperor. This brings me to my problem with the Clan Wars story.

Clan Wars: In true the Clan Wars where just that in name. During most of the arc it was Clans vs shadowlands or shadowlands corrupted factions of their clan. There where very few conflicts that where just clan on clan during this time.

Possible story change: with the changes to the Coup storyline you would open up the arc to becoming a true Clan War as you could have Imperial factions fighting to restore the Emperor and for lack of a better word a New order faction that supports Bayushi Shoju. Add to this that the Emperor is a young kid and maybe he gets put into the care of some phoenix that are secretly blood speakers and you have the setup for the day of thunder.

Day of Thunder : The DOT was always a little off to me. While I understand that they where trying to remove the Fu-Leng possessed Emperor the idea that one of the Thunders would become Emperor made no sense. the Emperors bloodline was alive and well within the Otomo family. Yes you can say that they gave up the right to the throne, but without a clear line it is not unheard of for someone who has released his/her claim to a throne to comeback. In true the only person outside the The Fu-Leng possessed Emperor and The Otomo that has any Claim to the throne are Togashi and his children.

Possible story change: With this setup you could have a three way battle for the throne. The Fu-Leng possessed Emperor, The Otomo led faction, and the Emperor Shoju faction if he wins the Coup.

well that's my two-cents on how you could keep the old stories and tell them in a new fresh way.

6 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

I feel the the original story gets way more flak then its deserves, and for the wrong reasons.

First off I never had a problem with the Coup, Clan Wars or Day of Thunder as story-lines on their own. The problem IMHO was the way tournaments were handled by AEG, and the fact that AEG wrote a clear ending to the game during the Clan Wars cycle not knowing that the game would become the second most popular CCG of the time.

The main problem with tournaments to me during the early days was how much control the CCG had over the story. CCGs at their core are competitive games where story doesn't matter and you build decks to win. If this means you play your phoenix deck by corrupting dragons or having Onis then so be it. So this led to some weird stories based off decks designed to game the system to win. Later in the story AEG changed the tournament format to win chose a story but some of the damage had already been done by that time.

Now from what I have heard, and it could be wrong FFG has the story laid out already and tournaments will just effect some of the personal stories with its overall arc. This sounds good to me but we will see.

On to the stories

Scorpion Clan Coup: this to me has to happen if from what I can tell they are keeping the prehistory intact. The fact that the Scorpions are a starting faction is even better for this IMHO because it will allow players to help mold the Coup and allow Scorpion players to be more invested in their clan then ever before.

Possible story change: Maybe the Scorpions splinter into two group with one desiding that their loyalty to the emperor is greater then that to Shoju. Maybe Shoju's forces manage to hold off the other clans, and you have a real Clan War between supporters of Shoju and the Emperor. This brings me to my problem with the Clan Wars story.

Clan Wars: In true the Clan Wars where just that in name. During most of the arc it was Clans vs shadowlands or shadowlands corrupted factions of their clan. There where very few conflicts that where just clan on clan during this time.

Possible story change: with the changes to the Coup storyline you would open up the arc to becoming a true Clan War as you could have Imperial factions fighting to restore the Emperor and for lack of a better word a New order faction that supports Bayushi Shoju. Add to this that the Emperor is a young kid and maybe he gets put into the care of some phoenix that are secretly blood speakers and you have the setup for the day of thunder.

Day of Thunder : The DOT was always a little off to me. While I understand that they where trying to remove the Fu-Leng possessed Emperor the idea that one of the Thunders would become Emperor made no sense. the Emperors bloodline was alive and well within the Otomo family. Yes you can say that they gave up the right to the throne, but without a clear line it is not unheard of for someone who has released his/her claim to a throne to comeback. In true the only person outside the The Fu-Leng possessed Emperor and The Otomo that has any Claim to the throne are Togashi and his children.

Possible story change: With this setup you could have a three way battle for the throne. The Fu-Leng possessed Emperor, The Otomo led faction, and the Emperor Shoju faction if he wins the Coup.

well that's my two-cents on how you could keep the old stories and tell them in a new fresh way.

Point of order

The Otomo with Hantei blood strong enough for the throne were killed by the black scroll plague.

4 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Point of order

The Otomo with Hantei blood strong enough for the throne were killed by the black scroll plague.

That was added late to explain this if I remember correctly, as the connection of the Otomo family to the Emperor was not added till later in the story. Winter Court: Kyuden Seppun I believe.

43 minutes ago, Rawls said:

The writers can obviously do what they want, but this seems to me like a total nonstarter. The only way to wield this sort of power over another clan would be to defeat them in war. Hell, even feudal lords in the real world didn't have that much power over their more-powerful vassals.

Hell, in Rokugan, even the Emperor himself doesn't have that much authority over the Major Clans.

I don't think the power would be that overt - no. They wouldn't command the other clan's armies, but they would be the point of policy as it relates to military. This means they could draw the cap on military size, or demand conscripts from the clan militaries all in the name of the Emperor, so its legit.

If Kisada was the (Military Adviser to the Emperor) then he would be able to demand conscripts from all clans and march them to the wall to reinforce his position. He may even decide to march passed the wall with the reinforcements to reclaim some land from the corruption. If Shoju were the MAttE he could relax rules on what weapons are considered "honorable" in combat so that gunpowder may make a come back, and using ninja wouldn't be immediately dishonorable. Similarly if the Lion took over combat they may instate some rules that a Duel cannot resolve a Military Conflict unless the force of both armies are considered equal by an Imperial Inspector (appointed by Lion) so that Crane can't jank the battles. The Phoenix may call for peace between all clans, and the Dragon may give little direction allowing the clans to freely fight as they wish.

The point is that it gives the players a point they can routinely contest which does not dethrone the Emperor and has a more minor effect on the story. The greater arcs can still do what they wish, but this would give more life to the Emerald Champion role and separate it's authority, and the Emperor's authority we have now into distinctly military, political, espionage, and trade positions which the Emperor can name.

2 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

That was added late to explain this if I remember correctly, as the connection of the Otomo family to the Emperor was not added till later in the story. Winter Court: Kyuden Seppun I believe.

Since that's where I read it first, I don't doubt you.?

I still think they can do better than retread old storylines good or bad.

But that's just opinion, I lived through the last round, I'll make it through this one too.?

7 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I don't think the power would be that overt - no. They wouldn't command the other clan's armies, but they would be the point of policy as it relates to military. This means they could draw the cap on military size, or demand conscripts from the clan militaries all in the name of the Emperor, so its legit.

If Kisada was the (Military Adviser to the Emperor) then he would be able to demand conscripts from all clans and march them to the wall to reinforce his position. He may even decide to march passed the wall with the reinforcements to reclaim some land from the corruption. If Shoju were the MAttE he could relax rules on what weapons are considered "honorable" in combat so that gunpowder may make a come back, and using ninja wouldn't be immediately dishonorable. Similarly if the Lion took over combat they may instate some rules that a Duel cannot resolve a Military Conflict unless the force of both armies are considered equal by an Imperial Inspector (appointed by Lion) so that Crane can't jank the battles. The Phoenix may call for peace between all clans, and the Dragon may give little direction allowing the clans to freely fight as they wish.

The point is that it gives the players a point they can routinely contest which does not dethrone the Emperor and has a more minor effect on the story. The greater arcs can still do what they wish, but this would give more life to the Emerald Champion role and separate it's authority, and the Emperor's authority we have now into distinctly military, political, espionage, and trade positions which the Emperor can name.

So, essentially you want to bring back the Imperial Treasurer, & other Emperor's Chosen sooner rather than later.

Or make the throne less... relevant in day to day life.

"God is high above and the Tsar is far away."

If left to their own devices, the clans squabble just fine.

Do we know how Ujimitsu died?

5 minutes ago, Ser Nakata said:

Do we know how Ujimitsu died?

Not yet

9 hours ago, shosuko said:

Why not simply create a (war adviser) shogun, (political adviser) left chancellor, (espionage adviser) right chancellor, (financial adviser) chancellor of the exchequer, ect. These can be the "power behind the throne" type positions that clans can contest, and they can even come and go. If an Emperor wants to be more strong handed he can remove any of these positions to draw the power back to himself for a time.

L5R in general could benefit from remembering that hey, you actually need multiple people to run a government, at several different tiers of leadership. My approach has always been to say that yep, the emperor absolutely has chancellors and other high-ranking samurai on some kind of council, and Clan Champions have councils of their own, etc. Because there's no way you're ruling Rokugan, even in a relatively hands-off "the emperor isn't truly that powerful" fashion, without some kind of supporting bureaucracy.

18 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

L5R in general could benefit from remembering that hey, you actually need multiple people to run a government, at several different tiers of leadership. My approach has always been to say that yep, the emperor absolutely has chancellors and other high-ranking samurai on some kind of council, and Clan Champions have councils of their own, etc. Because there's no way you're ruling Rokugan, even in a relatively hands-off "the emperor isn't truly that powerful" fashion, without some kind of supporting bureaucracy.

Yes, and IIRC, most imperial bureaucrats are from the three imperial families, the Otomo, the Miya and the Seppun.

2 hours ago, Ser Nakata said:

Do we know how Ujimitsu died?

We know very little, but there are some conclusions we can draw.

We know that: he wrote a death haiku; he 'died before his time'; his spirit didn't seem particularly upset.

From this we can conclude that it wasn't instantaneous or unexpected, he was younger than he was expected to live, Ujimitsu doesn't believe that it was suspicious. This implies to me that he died of a chronic illness that even the kami couldn't cure.

3 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

We know very little, but there are some conclusions we can draw.

We know that: he wrote a death haiku; he 'died before his time'; his spirit didn't seem particularly upset.

From this we can conclude that it wasn't instantaneous or unexpected, he was younger than he was expected to live, Ujimitsu doesn't believe that it was suspicious. This implies to me that he died of a chronic illness that even the kami couldn't cure.

Or, he was granted the right to commit Seppuku. Perhaps due in large part to his immediate mental state after having executed his wife and daughter...?

11 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

First off I never had a problem with the Coup, Clan Wars or Day of Thunder as story-lines on their own. The problem IMHO was the way tournaments were handled by AEG, and the fact that AEG wrote a clear ending to the game during the Clan Wars cycle not knowing that the game would become the second most popular CCG of the time.

The main problem with tournaments to me during the early days was how much control the CCG had over the story. CCGs at their core are competitive games where story doesn't matter and you build decks to win. If this means you play your phoenix deck by corrupting dragons or having Onis then so be it. So this led to some weird stories based off decks designed to game the system to win. Later in the story AEG changed the tournament format to win chose a story but some of the damage had already been done by that time.

Scorpion Clan Coup: this to me has to happen if from what I can tell they are keeping the prehistory intact.

Clan Wars: In true the Clan Wars where just that in name. During most of the arc it was Clans vs shadowlands or shadowlands corrupted factions of their clan. There where very few conflicts that where just clan on clan during this time.

Day of Thunder : The DOT was always a little off to me. While I understand that they where trying to remove the Fu-Leng possessed Emperor the idea that one of the Thunders would become Emperor made no sense. the Emperors bloodline was alive and well within the Otomo family.

Fully agreed on the impact of the CCG on the story line. It was too great, and often warped the story to its detriment. And this would be further muddled when 'lesser' tourney wins produced greater effect on the story line than Kotei/Gencon wins. For instance, I'm still unsure what happened with Hitomi's storyline? Or, how the Hero of Volturnam (Isawa Hochiu) turned into a major villain without anything to support the turn. AEG's interpretation of disparate CCG performances was puzzling at best, IMO.

SCC will happen, I agree. Shoju and Yokuni are there. Yokuni has had his premonition. The Scorpion have began their domination of the courts. Even the Emerald Champion has been removed with haste...

Clan Wars: Very true. Few conflicts were clan on clan. This time, I hope we see a Lion clan civil war take place. I hope the Unicorn ally with the Crab. It's the natural play and gives them real purpose in the story line. Or, be the surprise ally for the Scorpion. Further, I hope the Phoenix do not implode, but I fear this is going to happen given the tie between Black Scrolls, Fu Leng, and the Day of Thunder. Lastly, I would definitely like to see Yokuni participate at Beiden Pass, as the art below implied.

Day of Thunder: (Spoiler) The _Ronin_ that became Emperor... The same samurai who was stripped of his name for attempting to ascend the throne before... It's a move that overturned generations of precedent. It upended the Kharmic Wheel... That said, you're right, the story line was hampered by the fact that AEG did not know that the game would survive to become what it is.

I think FFG made the right call going back this far. This era provided for the best L5R story material, and it was either underdeveloped or incomplete. The near perfect spot from which to tell the story anew.

4 minutes ago, Anemura said:

having executed his wife and daughter...?

Wait, what? Wouldn't we have heard about it if it had happened in the new storyline?

1 minute ago, Khudzlin said:

Wait, what? Wouldn't we have heard about it if it had happened in the new storyline?

Perhaps they will at some point? There was no explanation provided for his death either way. I'm speculating that it could be due to Seppuku, which seems as likely as illness at this point. Nothing overtly indicated suspicious circumstances in the fiction.

19 minutes ago, Anemura said:

Perhaps they will at some point? There was no explanation provided for his death either way. I'm speculating that it could be due to Seppuku, which seems as likely as illness at this point. Nothing overtly indicated suspicious circumstances in the fiction.

We do know that the Phoenix executed a bunch of Perfect Land sect recently.

38 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:

Wait, what? Wouldn't we have heard about it if it had happened in the new storyline?

We should have because Tsukune supposedly carried the soul of his dead daughter.

To me the problem with the idea of a Shogun is what it is.

The real world Shogun was the ruler of Japan. While the Emperor was the spiritual leader and needed to support the Shogun for him to rule the day to day running of the government was handled by the Shogun.

Now the problem arises from the fact that the Emerald Champion is everything that a Shogun would be minus the ruling the Empire part. Her controls the army and enforces the laws of the land.

So with this in mind I see the position of the Shogun as pointless within the Emerald Empire.

Maybe we should cut down on the Emerald Champion then.

24 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Maybe we should cut down on the Emerald Champion then.

Maybe if you poison him?