I suspect the first story arc will be a free-for-all to establish a type of "shogun." A position which isn't the Emperor that can be contested any number of times without any faction being wiped or ascending any clan too far.

4 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I suspect the first story arc will be a free-for-all to establish a type of "shogun." A position which isn't the Emperor that can be contested any number of times without any faction being wiped or ascending any clan too far.

It's not a bad idea, except either the clans have to agree to the legitimacy of a 'Shogun ', or said 'Shogun' will have to ruthlessly repress the other clans (like in history)

3 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

It's not a bad idea, except either the clans have to agree to the legitimacy of a 'Shogun ', or said 'Shogun' will have to ruthlessly repress the other clans (like in history)

idk - I think Shogun is just 1 step further than the Emerald Champion. They just need to elevate the role so he isn't as much a "servant" of the Emperor and chief of police as he is Commander of the Emperor's legion and his own political figure. I'd love to see Hida Kisada become the Emerald Champion, commander of the Emperor's Legion and he can take conscripts from all of the clans to serve on the wall haha

1 minute ago, shosuko said:

idk - I think Shogun is just 1 step further than the Emerald Champion. They just need to elevate the role so he isn't as much a "servant" of the Emperor and chief of police as he is Commander of the Emperor's legion and his own political figure. I'd love to see Hida Kisada become the Emerald Champion, commander of the Emperor's Legion and he can take conscripts from all of the clans to serve on the wall haha

I thought the EC WAS the commander of the Legions at this point

Ironically I like Shoju for EC ??

9 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

I thought the EC WAS the commander of the Legions at this point

Yeah - but the role is attached as a servant of the Emperor, so the hierarchy of struggles will pass over him and we'll all be vying for the next Emperor again... If the role is elevated to be more detached, and equal to the Emperor then that can be a height sufficient for a climactic story arc. Have the Emperor appeal to the EC and follow his lead in certain plot points rather than a strict master / servant relationship. Basically have the Emperor as the political / religious leader, and the EC as a military leader.

33 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Yeah - but the role is attached as a servant of the Emperor, so the hierarchy of struggles will pass over him and we'll all be vying for the next Emperor again... If the role is elevated to be more detached, and equal to the Emperor then that can be a height sufficient for a climactic story arc. Have the Emperor appeal to the EC and follow his lead in certain plot points rather than a strict master / servant relationship. Basically have the Emperor as the political / religious leader, and the EC as a military leader.

I could see that working IF he gives up (or has no) any clan affiliation like Kaneka did. That's a lot of power and I'd hate things degenerate into a continuous 'Clan War' death spiral. A sengoku Jidai would be cool for an arc, but I worry it could overshadow any other stories if it runs on too long.

2 hours ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Well one difference, the Scorpion weren't a playable faction in the beginning of the CCG.

Their first Stronghold was immediately included in the first expansion though, which was before they were brought back into Great Clan status.
Also, "playable" is an interesting word, as they were certainly a splashable clan from the very beginning.

4 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

Their first Stronghold was immediately included in the first expansion though, which was before they were brought back into Great Clan status.
Also, "playable" is an interesting word, as they were certainly a splashable clan from the very beginning.

All my info on this CCG era is secondhand. -shrug-? I was rpg only until the clan novels came out.

But my main point stands, it would be 'awkward' to wreck a core faction.

5 hours ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Well one difference, the Scorpion weren't a playable faction in the beginning of the CCG.

Now they are. So we're talking about essentially destroying a player faction. A popular one at that. Then we'd have to deal with the story gymnastics that got them reinstated later.

They could do it,but I believe it would be a mistake. It's also taking us far away from the 'character driven' stories FFG has been talking up. By going back to the klugey plot monster stories of yesteryear they're making the same mistakes AEG made.

If they wanted to keep the same story, why not keep the characters as they were? They could have just given out new player story prizes for different outcomes of events.

As we had seen in the beginning of the CCG, 'destroying' the Scorpion was not really an issue. The Ruined Fortress of the Scorpion was still playable (I played it, it was fun). Besides, the CCG need not follow in direct step with the Storyline. Clan destruction, like the Phoenix being all but obliterated, can have a very different implementation in terms of CCG and story. In the story line, a destroyed clan can act in the shadows. It can behave as a ronin band, much like Toturi's Army. As such, I don't see clan destruction as a deterrent to the Coup plot whatsoever. In fact, if done right, it could elevate the Scorpion to a new level entirely, a la the 47 ronin. It's all in how it's handled.

Lastly, the contention was not that they would keep the "same story". Parts of the story have already changed, like Satsume and Ujimitsu. The contention is that they will more than likely retain the three major plot points of the SCC, Clan War and DoT, regardless of the more minor changes seen therein. Hoturi can become Hotaru, and the Satsume can die early, but that doesn't shake the SCC plot line in any significant way. Kisada can be less outwardly against the Emperor, but he could still march on Rokugan given what we have seen. Yokuni is still there to usher in the Thunders etc... All the pieces are in place to have the story unfold as it once had (in terms of the three major plot points).

Now, if Yokuni dies during the Coup, or if one of the Thunders dies etc... then that's cause for reflection. Until then, I'll be waiting for something that knocks the story off the old tracks, so to speak.

12 minutes ago, Anemura said:

As we had seen in the beginning of the CCG, 'destroying' the Scorpion was not really an issue. The Ruined Fortress of the Scorpion was still playable (I played it, it was fun). Besides, the CCG need not follow in direct step with the Storyline. Clan destruction, like the Phoenix being all but obliterated, can have a very different implementation in terms of CCG and story. In the story line, a destroyed clan can act in the shadows. It can behave as a ronin band, much like Toturi's Army. As such, I don't see clan destruction as a deterrent to the Coup plot whatsoever. In fact, if done right, it could elevate the Scorpion to a new level entirely, a la the 47 ronin. It's all in how it's handled.

Lastly, the contention was not that they would keep the "same story". Parts of the story have already changed, like Satsume and Ujimitsu. The contention is that they will more than likely retain the three major plot points of the SCC, Clan War and DoT, regardless of the more minor changes seen therein. Hoturi can become Hotaru, and the Satsume can die early, but that doesn't shake the SCC plot line in any significant way. Kisada can be less outwardly against the Emperor, but he could still march on Rokugan given what we have seen. Yokuni is still there to usher in the Thunders etc... All the pieces are in place to have the story unfold as it once had (in terms of the three major plot points).

Now, if Yokuni dies during the Coup, or if one of the Thunders dies etc... then that's cause for reflection. Until then, I'll be waiting for something that knocks the story off the old tracks, so to speak.

Oh I'll be waiting too. ??

Wherever it goes, it had better be awesome ??

15 hours ago, Anemura said:

Is it your wish that no one discuss old lore? For a lot of old players, New5r cannon and Old5R cannon will be a point of discussion throughout the life of the game. That is, until the LCG storyline diverges from the CCG storyline to the point of becoming unrecognizable. That's when the story is fresh for everyone. I hope that's not a negative for you and other new players on this forum. I think it's largely unavoidable.

I'm perfectly ok with old players discussing the previous canon, it's just natural and they form a big part of the current player-base (even if I think - for the sake of the game - that they will be a minority after launch).

I simply hope that FFG will not give chance to anybody to clearly foresee the new story based on the old one. The "Ah, that character went to talk to that one in that place, it's the same as the old lore so he will be assassinated" kind of comments, that if proven to be true will ruin the game for everybody. In the end, who wants to re-live exactly the same story that has already been narrated?

Isn't using old familiar characters the perfect way to surprise players familiar with the old story? We think we know their motivations and the path their actions will take them. But subtle changes in their actions leading to wildly different outcomes for Rokugan would be a really fun ride.

7 hours ago, Anemura said:

As we had seen in the beginning of the CCG, 'destroying' the Scorpion was not really an issue. The Ruined Fortress of the Scorpion was still playable (I played it, it was fun). Besides, the CCG need not follow in direct step with the Storyline. Clan destruction, like the Phoenix being all but obliterated, can have a very different implementation in terms of CCG and story. In the story line, a destroyed clan can act in the shadows. It can behave as a ronin band, much like Toturi's Army. As such, I don't see clan destruction as a deterrent to the Coup plot whatsoever. In fact, if done right, it could elevate the Scorpion to a new level entirely, a la the 47 ronin. It's all in how it's handled.

Lastly, the contention was not that they would keep the "same story". Parts of the story have already changed, like Satsume and Ujimitsu. The contention is that they will more than likely retain the three major plot points of the SCC, Clan War and DoT, regardless of the more minor changes seen therein. Hoturi can become Hotaru, and the Satsume can die early, but that doesn't shake the SCC plot line in any significant way. Kisada can be less outwardly against the Emperor, but he could still march on Rokugan given what we have seen. Yokuni is still there to usher in the Thunders etc... All the pieces are in place to have the story unfold as it once had (in terms of the three major plot points).

Now, if Yokuni dies during the Coup, or if one of the Thunders dies etc... then that's cause for reflection. Until then, I'll be waiting for something that knocks the story off the old tracks, so to speak.

Well, "destroying" and actually removing a clan from the game are 2 separate things. The Scorpion were "destroyed" but still existed in the game. I don't think that is a problem at all, and major things like that should happen to every clan in its time as it allows the cards and the story to represent the different facets of the clans persona.

As for repeating the same story - If they do this it creates a situation where they still need to differentiate "this" story from "that" story. Its like the various Spiderman movies that have been out the last set of years. They can try to use the same character cast, but they have to find ways to shake it up and make it into its own distinct entry. Even with changes, they will still be compared to each other and they would have to find some way to one up the previous story to make their new story the "real" one. Its a tough challenge, and simply avoiding the Coup in light of a new story is a smart way to go.

While they may start with the coup, I think they would be fools for repeating the 2nd Day of Thunder... They would have to have the Coup be too similar to the previous story. The Coup without any meaningful differentiation followed by the 2nd Day of Thunder comes off as far too predictable... They would have to do a phenomenal job of telling these stories to get away with it.

Re the Shogun:

Based on the lore, can any clan other than the Lion realistically hold the position of Shogun for any appreciable length of time? And if the Shogun were from some other clan, wouldn't that finally render the Lion's role in the empire moot?

I mean, they literally have one job.

4 minutes ago, Rawls said:

Re the Shogun:

Based on the lore, can any clan other than the Lion realistically hold the position of Shogun for any appreciable length of time? And if the Shogun were from some other clan, wouldn't that finally render the Lion's role in the empire moot?

I mean, they literally have one job.

Well, in the old story the Unicorn ? held the position. Except for Kaneka no lion ? held the position of Shogun.

but you probably knew that ?

5 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Well, in the old story the Unicorn ? held the position. Except for Kaneka no lion ? held the position of Shogun.

but you probably knew that ?

Yeah. I was thinking about Kaneka specifically. I try to forget that whole Chagatai incident.

45 minutes ago, Rawls said:

Re the Shogun:

Based on the lore, can any clan other than the Lion realistically hold the position of Shogun for any appreciable length of time? And if the Shogun were from some other clan, wouldn't that finally render the Lion's role in the empire moot?

I mean, they literally have one job.

That is kinda my point on this - rather than having the Lion as the Left Hand, and the Crane as the Right Hand, and even the Scorpion as the Underhand, lets detach these roles so that they can be contested. The Lion being the Emperor's Military / Left Hand is already in conflict with the Emerald Champion who allegedly leads the Imperial army. The Lion can still make up the greatest generals and the bulk of the army if they want, but who said they get to lead it?

Why not simply create a (war adviser) shogun, (political adviser) left chancellor, (espionage adviser) right chancellor, (financial adviser) chancellor of the exchequer, ect. These can be the "power behind the throne" type positions that clans can contest, and they can even come and go. If an Emperor wants to be more strong handed he can remove any of these positions to draw the power back to himself for a time.

This can showcase the different clans personalities in different positions too. Its very thematic that the Scorpion are supposed to watch from the shadows, but what if that job was given to a Daidoji? What if the Emperor assigned the highest political position (left chancellor) to an Ide who impressed him? I think this could create a story line with a more universal focus rather than each clan doing their own thing... Witch hunters, Kuroiban, Inquisition, ect

I like the idea of a Shogunate which acts sort of like Tokyo in the boardgame "King of Tokyo."

If you haven't played King of Tokyo, then it works like this: one person at a time is in Tokyo. Everyone else attacks them constantly. When the person in Tokyo can't withstand it any longer then they leave; their most recent assailant steps into their place, and everyone starts attacking that person instead. Being Shogun means you don't get to rest, and means that everyone gets to come at you in their own way.

A clan doesn't get to control the Shogunate for long. That isn't how it works. They do, however, get to control it for as long as they can; and when they inevitably get knocked out they can lick their wounds and prepare for their return.

That could be a lot of fun. There could be a period in which the Shogun is, say, a Crab; and then every other clan could have a few cards made which represent their forces that get sent to the Wall. Then later it's the Dragon who are ascendant, and every clan is ordered to emphasise spirituality in their own way. This would give each set a distinct flavour of its own.

@Kitsu Seinosuke Exactly - make it a more temporary position that gives that clan a bit of spotlight in the story, and shows us their philosophy in how to rule but then they get ousted and the next clan takes over. I think this fits a lot better with the idea that the Emperor keeps the clans at war with each other to keep himself in power, as he is basically like the judge overseeing the contest the clans play out before him - and their reward is to run things for as long as they can.

Tokyo in King of Tokyo is a great analogy.

I'm ambivalent about the idea of the main roles switching through the clans.

The good: It makes for good story prizes, and might give a form of conflict that isn't of the "Empire in threat of dying... for the sixth time this week (and it's Tuesday)" variety. That's good. The prizes could be meaningful, have impact on both story and card base, while not being ridiculous.

The bad: It makes Rokugan more western. I like the Eastern feel to the story, in which stasis is a desirable virtue. In the RPG, I once described it to players as anti-Western in at least once sense. In the U.S., we love our Horatio Alger, rags to riches stories. They may never have been as true in reality as they are in our stories, but just telling the stories over and over makes them more true than they would be otherwise, as some people try to emulate them, and a few find success. Well, in Rokugan they tell the opposite stories. Ambition is bad, change is bad, those who seek either bring curses on themselves, their ancestors, and their clan. This was despite Toturi becoming Emperor, and Yakamo and Hitomi becoming the Sun and Moon. Chagatai's greatest power stemmed from recognizing this and seeking change deliberately. Again, change happens despite the best efforts, but by telling everyone it never happens and is always bad, they make change less likely. And that, to me, is part of the charm of the setting - the alien-ness to our way of thinking, and the deliberate blindness the characters have to what happens around them that goes against their myths.

2 minutes ago, agarrett said:

I'm ambivalent about the idea of the main roles switching through the clans.

The good: It makes for good story prizes, and might give a form of conflict that isn't of the "Empire in threat of dying... for the sixth time this week (and it's Tuesday)" variety. That's good. The prizes could be meaningful, have impact on both story and card base, while not being ridiculous.

The bad: It makes Rokugan more western. I like the Eastern feel to the story, in which stasis is a desirable virtue. In the RPG, I once described it to players as anti-Western in at least once sense. In the U.S., we love our Horatio Alger, rags to riches stories. They may never have been as true in reality as they are in our stories, but just telling the stories over and over makes them more true than they would be otherwise, as some people try to emulate them, and a few find success. Well, in Rokugan they tell the opposite stories. Ambition is bad, change is bad, those who seek either bring curses on themselves, their ancestors, and their clan. This was despite Toturi becoming Emperor, and Yakamo and Hitomi becoming the Sun and Moon. Chagatai's greatest power stemmed from recognizing this and seeking change deliberately. Again, change happens despite the best efforts, but by telling everyone it never happens and is always bad, they make change less likely. And that, to me, is part of the charm of the setting - the alien-ness to our way of thinking, and the deliberate blindness the characters have to what happens around them that goes against their myths.

This ☝️

Though, my ambivalence is more rooted in the fear that the 'quest for position/power ' will become EVERY story.

Great for arc, but it'd get old after awhile. Need a little fantasy in my fantasy.?

1 minute ago, agarrett said:

I'm ambivalent about the idea of the main roles switching through the clans.

The good: It makes for good story prizes, and might give a form of conflict that isn't of the "Empire in threat of dying... for the sixth time this week (and it's Tuesday)" variety. That's good. The prizes could be meaningful, have impact on both story and card base, while not being ridiculous.

The bad: It makes Rokugan more western. I like the Eastern feel to the story, in which stasis is a desirable virtue. In the RPG, I once described it to players as anti-Western in at least once sense. In the U.S., we love our Horatio Alger, rags to riches stories. They may never have been as true in reality as they are in our stories, but just telling the stories over and over makes them more true than they would be otherwise, as some people try to emulate them, and a few find success. Well, in Rokugan they tell the opposite stories. Ambition is bad, change is bad, those who seek either bring curses on themselves, their ancestors, and their clan. This was despite Toturi becoming Emperor, and Yakamo and Hitomi becoming the Sun and Moon. Chagatai's greatest power stemmed from recognizing this and seeking change deliberately. Again, change happens despite the best efforts, but by telling everyone it never happens and is always bad, they make change less likely. And that, to me, is part of the charm of the setting - the alien-ness to our way of thinking, and the deliberate blindness the characters have to what happens around them that goes against their myths.

idk what eastern things you are watching, but Ambition is one of the greatest dualities of the Samurai. They are supposed to be loyal, but they are certainly ambitious. Tokugawa becoming the Shogun of Japan is practically a rags to riches story its self. The entire power behind the throne trope is an embodiment of this duality where we have a stoic and unchanging Emperor, but have roles beneath them that ambitious people can fill. The Emperor gives these positions because it creates allies and subordinates out of would-be enemies who would replace him. It creates ceilings to ambition so great leaders can rise, and they can take the position of Shogun, but can't go any further to overtake the Emperor because as Shogun they are immediately burdened with the "rewards" of their effort.

Stasis is not a "desirable eastern virtue". L5R keeps repeating that statement because ~certain designer~ thought that adherence to tradition is really dumb and did his best to portray tradition as a foolish thickheadness, living in the past and self-harmful denial of progress.

1 hour ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

I like the idea of a Shogunate which acts sort of like Tokyo in the boardgame "King of Tokyo."

If you haven't played King of Tokyo, then it works like this: one person at a time is in Tokyo. Everyone else attacks them constantly. When the person in Tokyo can't withstand it any longer then they leave; their most recent assailant steps into their place, and everyone starts attacking that person instead. Being Shogun means you don't get to rest, and means that everyone gets to come at you in their own way.

A clan doesn't get to control the Shogunate for long. That isn't how it works. They do, however, get to control it for as long as they can; and when they inevitably get knocked out they can lick their wounds and prepare for their return.

That could be a lot of fun. There could be a period in which the Shogun is, say, a Crab; and then every other clan could have a few cards made which represent their forces that get sent to the Wall. Then later it's the Dragon who are ascendant, and every clan is ordered to emphasise spirituality in their own way. This would give each set a distinct flavour of its own.

I can see how this would be fun from a fan competition stand point. But what in-setting reason could possibly motivate such a position. To make fighting for such a position worthwhile, it would have to wield real power over the other clans (like the real world Shogun). But if it did, once you were kicked out, why would those who kicked you out let you lick your wounds? Why wouldn't they focus on crushing you before fighting amongst themselves for the power?

It would be like the great powers allowing Napolean to continue ruling France after Waterloo.