... in this target lock meta.

TIE/SF Fighter: •"Quickdraw" (35)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)
•A Score to Settle (0)
Fire-Control System (2)
Pattern Analyzer (2)

TIE Interceptor: •Soontir Fel (34)
Autothrusters (2)
Targeting Computer (2)
Royal Guard TIE (0)
Push the Limit (3)

Lambda-Class Shuttle: •Captain Kagi (30)
Collision detector (0)
•Rebel Captive (3)

Total: 99/100

Alternatives to Fel:

TIE/SF Fighter: •"Backdraft" (34)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Pattern Analyzer (2)

TIE Interceptor: •Carnor Jax (34)
Autothrusters (2)
Hull Upgrade (3)
Royal Guard TIE (0)
Push the Limit (3)

TIE Defender: •Colonel Vessery (34)
TIE/x7 (-2)
Veteran Instincts (1)

I had the same thoughts. But I put Countermeasures on him too.

I was tinkering around with Kagi a month or so ago but gave up because really, only K4 and a little here and there TL ships like Norra would make use of him. Everything else right now makes him useless: FCS, R4 agromech, Deadeye scurrgs, Lone Wolf Dash, Jess, Wookie Commandos, Predator, Dengar crew. I just dont think he is worth the points for the off chance you run into Dengar/Tel, or Ketsu/Bossk.

Yorr, absorbing those stress from Asajj or sloops,kturns, etc. is much more valuable in every single match.

Kagi would be great if he worked on FCS and R4 target locks

Kagi is not the most 'competitive' choice, but he's still pretty great despite the limitations of his ability. I have an excellent list using him to the fullest of his ability:

Kagi's Trolls

Kagi w/ Sensor Jammer, systems officer & fleet officer = 36

Jax w/ PTL, title, hull & thrusters = 34

Strom w/ predator, x-1 & ATC = 30

100

Warning! This list can be NPE for an opponent (negative play experience), so don't bring it out against beginners or in a 'fun, super casual' atmosphere (unless you know your opponents really well and they are cool with facing this kind of thing).

Basically, your opponent gets to do nothing: his actions will seem useless, his range 1 extra die is denied. Trying to kill your ships is much harder than it may first appear. Having said that, its not an easy list to fly. Ideally, you want Jax and Strom in range 1 of the enemy and Kagi at range 3 for the first turn of shooting, but of course, that's not super easy to pull off. If you get good at it though, the list can be quite brutal, although its not going to be awesome against everything, so for that reason, I wouldn't consider it 'top tier' for high level tournaments.

One thing I do like about it though is that it teaches you some nuances of predicting your opponent on the initial joust. Very few lists 'need' specific opening engagement ranges like this list does, so either you learn how to get good at it, or you fail and watch your ships die

9 minutes ago, blade_mercurial said:

Kagi is not the most 'competitive' choice, but he's still pretty great despite the limitations of his ability. I have an excellent list using him to the fullest of his ability:

Kagi's Trolls

Kagi w/ Sensor Jammer, systems officer & fleet officer = 36

Jax w/ PTL, title, hull & thrusters = 34

Strom w/ predator, x-1 & ATC = 30

100

Warning! This list can be NPE for an opponent (negative play experience), so don't bring it out against beginners or in a 'fun, super casual' atmosphere (unless you know your opponents really well and they are cool with facing this kind of thing).

Basically, your opponent gets to do nothing: his actions will seem useless, his range 1 extra die is denied. Trying to kill your ships is much harder than it may first appear. Having said that, its not an easy list to fly. Ideally, you want Jax and Strom in range 1 of the enemy and Kagi at range 3 for the first turn of shooting, but of course, that's not super easy to pull off. If you get good at it though, the list can be quite brutal, although its not going to be awesome against everything, so for that reason, I wouldn't consider it 'top tier' for high level tournaments.

One thing I do like about it though is that it teaches you some nuances of predicting your opponent on the initial joust. Very few lists 'need' specific opening engagement ranges like this list does, so either you learn how to get good at it, or you fail and watch your ships die

This is how you describe a list, how it runs, and its capabilities.

This is an awesome recommendation, though I don't generally expect less from @blade_mercurial.

I like the idea of SJ and Rebel Captive on Kagi, then paired with Jax. If going with Fleet Officer/Hux, you might have something to support a decent Kestal build - her ability isn't as important as her PS, but she can get a clutch shot through post Jax, if needed.

Kagi helps support her during a Cruise Missile run, then she can disengage and start taking turret shots... Would have to build it out and see what I've actually left for points, though.

21 minutes ago, blade_mercurial said:

Kagi is not the most 'competitive' choice, but he's still pretty great despite the limitations of his ability. I have an excellent list using him to the fullest of his ability:

Kagi's Trolls

Kagi w/ Sensor Jammer, systems officer & fleet officer = 36

Jax w/ PTL, title, hull & thrusters = 34

Strom w/ predator, x-1 & ATC = 30

100

Warning! This list can be NPE for an opponent (negative play experience), so don't bring it out against beginners or in a 'fun, super casual' atmosphere (unless you know your opponents really well and they are cool with facing this kind of thing).

Basically, your opponent gets to do nothing: his actions will seem useless, his range 1 extra die is denied. Trying to kill your ships is much harder than it may first appear. Having said that, its not an easy list to fly. Ideally, you want Jax and Strom in range 1 of the enemy and Kagi at range 3 for the first turn of shooting, but of course, that's not super easy to pull off. If you get good at it though, the list can be quite brutal, although its not going to be awesome against everything, so for that reason, I wouldn't consider it 'top tier' for high level tournaments.

One thing I do like about it though is that it teaches you some nuances of predicting your opponent on the initial joust. Very few lists 'need' specific opening engagement ranges like this list does, so either you learn how to get good at it, or you fail and watch your ships die

Seems fun but really counter-intuitive. I can imagine keeping Jax at range 1 of Kagi wouldn't be difficult for the initial joust. After that, he needs to dance. Strom is saved by Predator and the ATC but his PS is going to get him killed quick. I'd be interested in a play-by-play battle report against anything with PS 8+

I wanted to include Sensor Jammer in my list, but Kagi is going to die, probably first if you're not playing against Scum, and those 4 points are way more effective on your Aces.
Keeping Kagi at 30 allows you to utilize the best Imperial aces, at the price point they have been engineered at for the last six waves. I'd wager my version would have the upper hand against yours, especially with Expertise and the PS advantage. Though, funny enough - Fel's targeting computer is directly countered by an opponent's Kagi.

I ran something like that. I had QD and BD with him, but it largely didnt do much since i somehow kept facing lists that didnt really depend on targetlocks somehow. Or have FCS, which ignores kagi.

Think i had 2 games out of a dozen or so where kagi actually messed up my opponent. One was because expertise is autocountered by rebel captive and another because it stopped an ordnance bomber from blasting BD at a distance since he had to TL Kagi.

I took a Kagi list to the Tattooine Open last March and ended up going 4-3, which wasn't too bad considering that I was flying a 39-point lambda shuttle (Kagi with SJ and Palp) alongside Carnor Jax and and Omega Leader. My losses were to a double shadowcaster list, a bombing list, and PtL/AS brobots run by Jesper Hill. I won against Dash/double juking A-Wings, Rey/Norra, a crackswarm and a triple imperial aces list.

These days with expertise about I'm not as confident that SJ is worth it, but Carnor and OL combine really well when you want to focus on another enemy ship without having to change OL's target lock.

1 minute ago, darthlurker said:

These days with expertise about I'm not as confident that SJ is worth it, but Carnor and OL combine really well when you want to focus on another enemy ship without having to change OL's target lock.

That's specifically why I love Rebel Captive & Sensor Jammer as a pair.

Not, necessarily, something I'd really fly, due to point cost and actual viability, but it's a perfectly frustrating pair that neuters Expertise and is likely useful against other ships.

Bonus if you work some silly Juke shenanigans into the list, but I never seem to find a setup there that I like.

13 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

That's specifically why I love Rebel Captive & Sensor Jammer as a pair.

Not, necessarily, something I'd really fly, due to point cost and actual viability, but it's a perfectly frustrating pair that neuters Expertise and is likely useful against other ships.

Bonus if you work some silly Juke shenanigans into the list, but I never seem to find a setup there that I like.

That's something I'd try in a casual format with a ton of extra points - RAC with HotShot, Gunner, Kylo, and Predator. Kagi, as discussed, and a bunch of Juke x7s.

4 hours ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Seems fun but really counter-intuitive. I can imagine keeping Jax at range 1 of Kagi wouldn't be difficult for the initial joust. After that, he needs to dance. Strom is saved by Predator and the ATC but his PS is going to get him killed quick. I'd be interested in a play-by-play battle report against anything with PS 8+

I wanted to include Sensor Jammer in my list, but Kagi is going to die, probably first if you're not playing against Scum, and those 4 points are way more effective on your Aces.
Keeping Kagi at 30 allows you to utilize the best Imperial aces, at the price point they have been engineered at for the last six waves. I'd wager my version would have the upper hand against yours, especially with Expertise and the PS advantage. Though, funny enough - Fel's targeting computer is directly countered by an opponent's Kagi.

Like I said, you really need to practice it to get it right. The ranges are important, and understanding the nuances requires putting it on the table more than anything.

I don't see how your list would have any upper hand in the beginning. You wouldn't be able to use focus/evade and you gain no +1 attack die at Range 1. If you chose to shoot at my aces, they have focus+evade first turn and get their target locks after. If you shoot at Kagi, Sensor Jammer deducts 1 hit from each of your attacks, so at most you would knock off a few shields. Either way, you are throwing at most 9 unmodified attack dice whereas I am throwing 10 (probably modified). Next turn, I pick up my target locks and Jax is right where he wants to be (trailing your ships). Seems to me, the only way you can get an upperhand engaging this list is doing something clever in the opening (whereas my list can confidently joust yours without too much worry).

I'm not saying my list is the best ever, but it really is good at what it was intended for. Give it a try if you want to see how it works, but at the end of the day, I'm not sure its going to win any 'high level' competitive events. Store Champs are possible though.

This has been a good, and very timely discussion. I was dead-set on bringing Captain Kagi, Carnor Jax, and Zertik Strom to Store Champs this weekend, and then I talked myself into dropping Strom for Omega Leader. Then I listened to Radio TCX and Mynock Squadron Podcast, and my determination wavered even more. Sigh. The only thing Kagi has going for him is that Cruise Missiles may be out in force, and Kagi can do a pretty good job neutering such an alpha strike. While Strom and Omega Leader both rely on TL, which scares me now that Potensity is running around. I'm in a quandary.

Maybe I'll just run my Alpha Sq. Pilots again.

store champs? If you are comfortable flying these guys, I say go for it! You are likely to face only 1, maybe 2 bad matchups. The rest of your games should be perfectly winnable, and that's enough to place quite well. And if you get lucky with matchups, you might not face any bad ones, and win it all!

18 hours ago, blade_mercurial said:

Like I said, you really need to practice it to get it right. The ranges are important, and understanding the nuances requires putting it on the table more than anything.

I don't see how your list would have any upper hand in the beginning. You wouldn't be able to use focus/evade and you gain no +1 attack die at Range 1. If you chose to shoot at my aces, they have focus+evade first turn and get their target locks after. If you shoot at Kagi, Sensor Jammer deducts 1 hit from each of your attacks, so at most you would knock off a few shields. Either way, you are throwing at most 9 unmodified attack dice whereas I am throwing 10 (probably modified). Next turn, I pick up my target locks and Jax is right where he wants to be (trailing your ships). Seems to me, the only way you can get an upperhand engaging this list is doing something clever in the opening (whereas my list can confidently joust yours without too much worry).

I'm not saying my list is the best ever, but it really is good at what it was intended for. Give it a try if you want to see how it works, but at the end of the day, I'm not sure its going to win any 'high level' competitive events. Store Champs are possible though.

I've been thinking a lot about this and thought it warranted a response.

There are some assumptions we have to make to compare lists in a hypothetical fight.
A. Target locks obtained through the standard action (not FCS) are ineffective against all but Kagi. Point to you - until Kagi is dead, Fel doesn't get target locks. 2 points wasted. This also means, however, that ATC on Strom, while free, is useless until the Lambdas are gone.
B. Jax shuts down tokens for only one of my ships. There is no way you keep him at range 1 of Fel andQuickdraw, who both move after you (more on that later). My list, unlike yours, does not need to fly in formation, so they will be spread out and reacting to your maneuvers.

Having those established:

- Two PS 9s: As I just mentioned, your list is not controlling ranges as much as you want it to because both aces in my list move after you. Strom's ability, while good, does nothing for his lackluster chassis and two-dice primary. To be frank, if Vader can't compete in today's meta, neither can Strom - it's still a Tie Advanced. That's where you say, "This isn't a meta fight" - but a third of my list is meta (Quickdraw), a third of my list is tier two (Fel). I think the jank falls flat in light of this.

- Quickdraw shoots twice: You said I get, at most 9 unmodified dice.
Fel: 3-4 (again, you're not controlling range as much as you think, especially on Fel)
Quickdraw 3 (let's say Strom pins QD down as the SF dial is not as good/no real repositioning)
Quickdraw 3 (oh, you forgot he shoots twice unless you don't attack him... Please, don't shoot him. Let him stay healthy until the end game...)
Kagi 3 (both of our Kagis will be mostly be pointing the wrong direction, but certainly not in range 1)

I count 12-13 red dice. Now let's address that unmodified claim. I have to stick with my assumption that you're only shutting tokens down for one ship. Let's assume you're really good (and I believe you are) so Fel doesn't get to use his tokens. Fair. Quickdraw has 3-7 red dice with A Score to Settle (who would you put that on?), Fire Control System (which Kagi cannot stop), and his focus. That's maximum modification. Kagi gets his focus or target lock, who knows - this fight really isn't about those two.

The other thing I would like to point out is that while Fel may not have mods, he still is one the best arc-dodgers in the game. With you..

-Flying in formation, your list becomes much more susceptible to being arc-dodged and will have a hell of a time turning around. Sure, you can split up, keeping Kagi at range 3 of my ships, but then mediocre (at best) Strom dies instantly and Jax has to fight two-three ships on his own. That's not a lot to ask, typically, but Fel and QD can react/PS-kill him. I don't like his odds.

- Initiative. The fatal flaw of your list is that I choose initiative. Which means I take initiative and simply use Kagi as a blocker. The game ends pretty fast if I block your entire formation and no one gets actions. Simultaneous fire makes me less afraid that Kagi doesn't do damage before he goes...

- Rebel Captive and Sensor Jammer. If you're trying to use ATC, you're stuck to greens. If Jax even thinks of shooting Kagi and double stresses - poof. The only thing I haven't covered is Sensor Jammer. I agree that in a one-on-one, Kagi v. Kagi, yours would probably win (although he would be relegated to greens).

Alright. That was and dirty and mostly centered on my list. I expect a similar response with why your list would dismantle mine.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that with the crew you have on Kagi, he's already doing greens every turn and would most likely not be able to stay in range to even proc his ability. If he does manage that, I'd be really interested in seeing you not get arc-dodged while staying in range of Kagi and not wasting those 6 points of crew...

5 hours ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Alright. That was and dirty and mostly centered on my list. I expect a similar response with why your list would dismantle mine.

My comment was aimed at the first turn of shooting (or maybe second, if we end up having some range 3 shots---most of which would be ineffectual for both sides more than likely). So all of my hypothesizing was based purely on that first turn of shooting and nothing else. After that, anything can happen. Point is, I just wanted to show how the list is quite good at setting up a favourable first turn of shooting that will leave the opponent with little good going for it. I only brought it up because it seemed like you didn't fully realize the list's full potential based on your response.

--I wasn't sure how good you were at non-formation flying so I didn't want to make any assumptions there. If you are smart enough to spread out your PS 9 Aces, kudos! Not everyone knows that is a good idea (whether you're up against this kind of list or anything else).

--Strom is PS 6. So initiative doesn't help you that much (since he will stop any attempts for your Kagi to get a block on my PS 8's----at least initially).

--I think my list is very educational for veteran players because if you study it on the board and learn the nuances of how it positions, it can teach you a lot of advanced ideas about out-positioning enemy lists, particularly on the opening engagement. For that reason, I highly recommend giving it a try even if you don't end up sticking with it for very long. It has not only card interactions that you can take advantage of, but positional ones on the board that are difficult to explain fully. I find it best to play with it and see how it works, because what you can discover about this list's performance can be helpful for experienced players to up their game even more, especially for predominantly Imperial Players (its not as useful for newer players because its complicated and punishing if you make any errors).

So that is why I recommended giving it a try.

17 hours ago, blade_mercurial said:

store champs? If you are comfortable flying these guys, I say go for it! You are likely to face only 1, maybe 2 bad matchups. The rest of your games should be perfectly winnable, and that's enough to place quite well. And if you get lucky with matchups, you might not face any bad ones, and win it all!

Thanks for the encouragement. So far I'm 4-0 with the following:

· Carnor Jax (26)
Push The Limit (3)
Autothrusters (2)
Royal Guard TIE (0)
Hull Upgrade (3)
· Zertik Strom (26)
Veteran Instincts (1)
TIE/x1 (0)
Accuracy Corrector (0)
· Captain Kagi (27)
Sensor Jammer (4)
· Emperor Palpatine (8)
TOTAL 100

This has been spread across several metas, so it's untested against the current hotness. All I can do now is rely on my experience with TIE interceptors and hope for the best. I've never tried it with Omega Leader, and honestly I have a heck of a time keeping her alive, so I may stick with Strom. I hate Accuracy Corrector here because it doesn't synergize with Strom's range 1 shots, but it's all that would fit. Considering the Palpatine nerf, I realized I could shift the points around, and came up with this:

· Carnor Jax (26)
Push The Limit (3)
Autothrusters (2)
Royal Guard TIE (0)
Shield Upgrade (4)
· Zertik Strom (26)
Juke (2)
TIE/x1 (0)
Advanced Targeting Computer (1)
· Captain Kagi (27)
Sensor Jammer (4)
Systems officer (2)
· Rebel Captive (3)
TOTAL 100

I like Juke on Strom, but it would be nice if he also had a focus. I've had experience with Fleet Officer, so I could probably swing that. I just feel like Rebel Captive is so powerful, it's hard to drop it. And that's basically where I am: Fleet Officer vs. Rebel Captive. Thoughts?

3 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

I like Juke on Strom, but it would be nice if he also had a focus. I've had experience with Fleet Officer, so I could probably swing that. I just feel like Rebel Captive is so powerful, it's hard to drop it. And that's basically where I am: Fleet Officer vs. Rebel Captive. Thoughts?

Rebel Captive is an incredible card----Its one of those cards that is always a good choice no matter who you put it on.

However, there's a reason I have Fleet Officer on Kagi instead of the Captive. Basically, you WANT Kagi to be the first target the enemy shoots at. I consider it an excellent opening and going entirely in my favour if Jax and Strom are completely unscathed after that first turn of shooting. At that point, Jax and Strom should be able to get behind the enemy where they can continue doing damage and in position to get the most out of their pilot abilities. It should also be hard to finish off Kagi since he can block/mess up the enemy positions if you are good at placing him to disrupt enemy plans.

So for that reason, I prefer Fleet Officer in this case.

Fleet Officer: Strom & Jax most likely are sitting with focus + evade and Kagi has nothing. Kagi therefore is the more tempting target.

Rebel Captive: Strom & Jax have at least one token (maybe 2 for Jax) but Kagi probably has a focus as well, BUT with rebel captive, Kagi is no longer the most tempting target...

I also don't care if Kagi gets to use his crew cards that much. Systems officer is integral to allow Strom to get his Target Lock early on (without leaving him vulnerable) and fleet officer will get used for sure at least once, but after that....any further use is purely bonus.

Now of course, you could play it differently and not fly Jax and Strom in aggressively on that first turn. If that's the case, then Rebel Captive makes more sense, because you can position your ships in a way to make Kagi the most attractive target even WITH rebel captive. So, if you prefer a less aggressive playstyle, then I think Rebel Captive will be better.

Lastly, I just wanted to say that when I fly this list, I don't actually keep Jax super close to the other two (He's at least range 2 away and often comes through gaps in rocks on approach). Strom tries to stay within range 1 of Kagi to get the systems officer TL, but Jax works much better when coming in on an angle. Its so much easier for him to turn and follow the enemy (and stay within range 1) if he's already angled relative to the enemy on approach. Of course, exact placement of ships can be varied a bit and will depend on what enemies you face...

15 minutes ago, blade_mercurial said:

-snip-

Lastly, I just wanted to say that when I fly this list, I don't actually keep Jax super close to the other two (He's at least range 2 away and often comes through gaps in rocks on approach). Strom tries to stay within range 1 of Kagi to get the systems officer TL, but Jax works much better when coming in on an angle. Its so much easier for him to turn and follow the enemy (and stay within range 1) if he's already angled relative to the enemy on approach. Of course, exact placement of ships can be varied a bit and will depend on what enemies you face...

Great stuff, as always. You mention Jax coming in through the rocks. I love that - do it all the time. With Fleet Officer and Systems Officer limiting the shuttle to green maneuvers, I really like the idea of using the smallest asteroids so Kagi has room to maneuver. Does that fit with your experience? Am I worrying too much about a ship that's supposed to die early on?

5 hours ago, Parakitor said:

Great stuff, as always. You mention Jax coming in through the rocks. I love that - do it all the time. With Fleet Officer and Systems Officer limiting the shuttle to green maneuvers, I really like the idea of using the smallest asteroids so Kagi has room to maneuver. Does that fit with your experience? Am I worrying too much about a ship that's supposed to die early on?

I never pick the smallest rocks, simply because it helps Jumpmasters and some other large-based ships too much. I don't like giving an opponent using such ships an easier time, so I always pick at least medium-sized rocks. For this list, I think you could get away with the largest rocks, since its unlikely they will have much impact on Kagi, but it comes down to your comfort level. I think mid-sized rocks would be fine for this list if you don't want to take the big ones.

3 hours ago, blade_mercurial said:

I never pick the smallest rocks, simply because it helps Jumpmasters and some other large-based ships too much. I don't like giving an opponent using such ships an easier time, so I always pick at least medium-sized rocks. For this list, I think you could get away with the largest rocks, since its unlikely they will have much impact on Kagi, but it comes down to your comfort level. I think mid-sized rocks would be fine for this list if you don't want to take the big ones.

I think I'd go with larger debris fields. Use them as a buffer or try to block folks on them -- if you're using Reb Cap or Sensor Jammer, an enemy hitting a Debris Field is pretty awesome, while it's not the end of the world for the Lambda.

I will say that I really always use Collision Detector, so Debris is the obvious choice, but I've been bringing debris primarily since wave five, basically.

Interesting. Debris isn't a bad call. I just hate debris because it gives Dash more options of where to end his movement because he can still shoot if he lands on one, and never suffers any consequences. Yes, I have a Dash problem. Aside from Whisper, he's my least favorite pilot to fly against. It's part of the reason I am leaning heavily towards Carnor Jax instead of bringing TIE defenders, so he can boost to exploit that donut hole, and hopefully survive on the way in.

1 hour ago, Parakitor said:

Interesting. Debris isn't a bad call. I just hate debris because it gives Dash more options of where to end his movement because he can still shoot if he lands on one, and never suffers any consequences. Yes, I have a Dash problem. Aside from Whisper, he's my least favorite pilot to fly against. It's part of the reason I am leaning heavily towards Carnor Jax instead of bringing TIE defenders, so he can boost to exploit that donut hole, and hopefully survive on the way in.

I feel the same way. Plus, I face Dash a lot, because he's remained very popular in my area. For that reason I never touch the debris tokens for even small SC tourneys.

Also, I find debris is kind of bad for the same reason that it is good for your shuttle (its not really all that bad landing on them, so the opponent will go through them without much repurcussions). Having said that, if you decide to take rebel captive, then yeah, I can see the appeal----double stress IS pretty bad, even if they still get to shoot.

Thanks for all the insight and suggestions. In the end, this squad was too stressful. With so many ways things can go wrong, I know I'll be hard on myself when I lose, and I need something that makes me smile all day, win or lose. So I've settled on something else. Maybe I'm just a chicken