So the most common complain I hear when discussing the topic of making the namesake ship of this game actually playable is that anything they can do just makes Biggs better.

But then I got to thinking about armada and how the x-wings function in that game, and the answer is staring us all in the face.

X-Wing Escort

0 pts.

Title. X-Wing Only.

While you are at range 1 of another friendly ship without X-Wing Escort, that ship cannot be attacked if the attacker could target you instead.

When everyone is Biggs, no one will be.

So the solution is to make every X Wing into Biggs?

In before the lolz

Can't wait to have a Biggs with Luke's ability and an EPT....... Jes might become the ultimate Biggs though, cause this would synergize with ability well and she can fit autothrusters.

2 minutes ago, Joe Censored said:

So the solution is to make every X Wing into Biggs?

In before the lolz

Can't wait to have a Biggs with Luke's ability and an EPT.......

Maybe you missed the part where I stated x-wings in armada ALL have the escort ability.

1 minute ago, Boris_the_Dwarf said:

Maybe you missed the part where I stated x-wings in armada ALL have the escort ability.

Maybe you missed the part where in Armada you can't have an X Wing escort your MC-80 while it regens off R2-D2.

This was the xwing fix. They gave it to scum because the game has evolved to Scum-Wing.

Wedge with Engine, VT, AT for 5pts. Add in PTL and R2 astro for another 2pts. Is a 36pt Wedge with PTL, boost,br,at any worse (aka better) than PTL Fenn for 34pts?

Wes with VI, R3A2, VT, IA for just 2pts.

All the 1pt astromechs are now 0pt astromechs. Yes, that means Xwings get 2 greens for 0pts with R2 astro. Not exactly OP here.

Is Biggs broken if he gets a 0pt bot? No.

Now that the The Empire are in the minority, all they do is obstruct, plus the Fake News can't seem to let go of their biases - that is why they are failing!

The X-Wing is great! The New Republic is great!

...and that not-a-meeting where Han met with those agents from Ruuskie System, anyone would have taken that meeting Kylo set it up, it is his fault, BELIEVE ME!

7 hours ago, wurms said:

Wedge with Engine, VT, AT for 5pts. Add in PTL and R2 astro for another 2pts. Is a 36pt Wedge with PTL, boost,br,at any worse (aka better) than PTL Fenn for 34pts?

Yes.

His ability works at all ranges, not just range 1, and whilst he has 1 less green dice, he has both an extra hit point and two of those are critical-immune shields, not hull.

Is he better enough that it'd be a game-upsetting change......probably not.

The big problem would be, inevitably, Biggs.

Biggs Darklighter - "Vaksai", R4-D6, Hull Upgrade, Integrated Astromech, Stealth Device - 29 points

Thrown into the stuff you can do to toughen him up further, you get ridiculous "defence bunker lists".

I wouldn't mind adding something to the X-wing, but I would suggest:

• You don't want to solve the problem of Biggs messing with the game by making everyone else Biggs. I know escort is a trait in Armada, but the thing is, you're talking about a squadron token protecting a couple of other squadron tokens; not 1/4-of-your-list medium ships affecting one another's targeting choices.
• You shouldn't take away Integrated Astromech being a thing. Which means 'cheaper modifications' seems a bit wrong.
• It does need to be a title, because that's about the only slot left.
• Ideally you want to Pilot Skill restrict it, because that's the easiest way to Biggs-Proof something: if you make it PS7+, then every named pilot except Tarn Mison can get it, but Biggs, Hobbie, and Garven can only get it by taking R2-D6 and then selecting Veteran Instincts (or Adaptability for Garven), which makes them 2 points more expensive, and prevents Biggs taking R4-D6.
• If the title* adds manoeuvrability and/or attack potential, it's less of an issue; Biggs is choke-chained to whoever he's protecting, so giving him an improved dial or repositioning ability doesn't help him too much, and since he tends to die first and be spending his focus defensively, adding a bit of punch to his primary weapon attack isn't going to noticeably affect the game. By comparison, adding repositioning ability and firepower to Wedge, Wes, Luke and Jek makes them much more interesting.

* My brain says "Scarif Veteran" because I'd love to see a "Correllian Conflict" box analogue with a campaign, missions, and new pilot/upgrade cards as a product; you could add in stuff for X-wings and Rebel Y-wings (including Blue Squadron pilots) and for TIe fighters (I'd love to see a 'reinforcements' respawn mechanic for academy pilots) and TIE strikers (either a TIE reaper or heavy striker title adding the crew and bombs they're supposed to carry).

The X-Wing has a strong core ship stat line; what it lacks is movement (greens) and re-positioning. I don't think it needs a defense boost (more agility) or an offence boost (it's got 3 attack like the defender).

With the major design issue here been Biggs,

re-positioning and stress clearing would be the way to go.

Thematic Fix;

Red Leader; 1pts

X-Wing only - You can only equip this is you are PS6 or Higher

At the Start of Combat; You may perform a free barrel action.

All X-Wings at Range 1, may perform a free barrel roll action.

^ Trench Run ^

Or modification

S-Foil - Upgrade; 1pts

X-Wing T-65 Only - You may equip one additional upgrade at 0 pts

When you perform a 3 turn or 3 bank, you may remove one stress at the start of combat.

Why start of combat? because it's different and rewards planning; Pair this with; Red Leader and intensity you can still get a token. Also there is Kyle who can deal out token and Ahsoka giving action in combat.

11 minutes ago, the1hodgy said:

T-65 Only

Note that there's no such thing as a "T-65" in rules terms.

The closest you can do as a definition is "X-wing Only. You may not equip this card if your action bar includes the [Boost] action icon".

This stops a T-70 selecting it. It also makes the card a mutually exclusive choice with Engine Upgrade; which is fine if you're getting free repositioning, but means that - even if someone wants to add multiple modification slots - there won't be autothrusters.

As an aside, it does make R7-T1 more attractive, as that's one of the few ways to get to Boost without the action appearing on your action bar.

I'm not sure what I'd suggest as an ability:

• Barrel Roll is nice, but is also relatively easy to come by; between Expert Handling, BB-8 and Vectored Thrusters, X-wings have a lot of ways to gain cheap access to barrel roll, and it's seem a bit odd to make them all redundant, especially if the card is an auto-include.
• Adding Boost.....basically turns you into a T-70, which you don't want to do. The whole point of a 'good' T-65 fix is that it should draw clear water between the faster (speed 3 green straight, boost, talon roll), tougher (3 shields) T-70 and the older, piloted-by-veterans T-65.
• That strikes me as neither of those really working. The other form of repositioning abilities are:

1. Extra manoeuvres - like adaptive ailerons, SLAM and Daredevil. Since these are generally 'boost plus', I'd steer clear of them for the same reasons as boost.
2. 'dial modifiers' like Juno Eclipse, Hera Syndulla, (Imperial) Boba Fett, Countess Ryad. Being able to change your dial is nice, but generally depends on you having a higher Pilot Skill to do it reactively. If you're tying this to PS7+ ships, though, there's a good chance you are higher PS than your opponent. Plus, there is value, even for lower PS, in the Ryad/Juno style of dial modifiers where you count X manoeuvre as Y, because that allows you to add manoeuvres that do not naturally appear on the ship's dial and/or change the effective colour. Juno, for example, gains a speed 1 turn the TIE advanced normally lacks, a speed 1 green straight the TIE advanced normally lacks, and gets green instead of white speed 2 banks (by dialing in a speed 1 and speeding it up).
3. 'Flip around' rules like Lightning Reflexes and (Heroes of the Resistance) Millenium Falcon. This allows you to add in 'counts as' segnor loops, but also allows you to create 'new' moves - especially if you were to use "rotate by 90'" as per the Talon Roll rather than 180' - a straight 4 or bank 3 followed by a 90' snap turn would make for very interesting moves, especially if paired with one of the barrel-roll granting abilities mentioned above....

• Attaching the fix to PS6 or 7+ (the latter makes Garven field R2-D6 + PS increase elite upgrade....but that's a good choice for him anyway ) means you can make it a "the pilots of this old warhorse still have a few tricks up their sleeve" ability, which feels right with them doing moves that don't appear in the book (or on the dial)
• Additional stress clearing.....is probably not that important; the T-65 has only 1 red move (its Koiogran turn) and can have a green dial the equal of a TIE interceptor or Protectorate for a point; besides which, You've already got the means to get action-independent target locks (Targeting astromech), action-independent focus (Garven), token independent dice modification (luke) and several in-built stress clearing mechanisms (Hobbie and Jek). Stress is not an problem for T-65s....they just don't tend to be stressed that much in the first place.

2 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

'new' moves - especially if you were to use "rotate by 90'" as per the Talon Roll rather than 180' - a straight 4 or bank 3 followed by a 90' snap turn would make for very interesting moves, especially if paired with one of the barrel-roll granting abilities mentioned above

I like the sound of this;

the stress clearing is maybe a local meta issue we have; stress dealers are a blight in our local scene.

4 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Barrel Roll is nice, but is also relatively easy to come by; between Expert Handling, BB-8 and Vectored Thrusters, X-wings have a lot of ways to gain cheap access to barrel roll, and it's seem a bit odd to make them all redundant, especially if the card is an auto-include.

Upon reflection looking at the card pool as whole; you make a good point. How about giving them either a 2 barrel roll or a bendy one (like echo or new star viper title)?

Really good insight, and good to look at it from a different perspective.

13 minutes ago, the1hodgy said:

I like the sound of this;

the stress clearing is maybe a local meta issue we have; stress dealers are a blight in our local scene.

Upon reflection looking at the card pool as whole; you make a good point. How about giving them either a 2 barrel roll or a bendy one (like echo or new star viper title)?

Really good insight, and good to look at it from a different perspective.

Agreed (sorry, apparently I can't give any more 'likes' today!)

But at the same time; whilst stress-dealers are annoying, 'control' is and should remain a viable archetype; push it too far and make X-wings functionally immune to stress and you undermine a lot of mechanics that make some ships and weapons work.

Not that I'd mind taking Assaj/Latts (for example) down a peg or two, you understand. But (without wearing the hat of the guy forever trying to kill that monstrous combination), I'm painfully aware that a ship which takes stress out of the equation undercuts that completely.

A bendy barrel roll feels like a clone of the starviper's ability (because it is) - which is an issue for three reasons:

1. Generally FFG don't like to 'clone' card abilities directly. There are often many different abilities, or different means to achieve the same end (focus & predator vs target lock & expertise, for example) but it's hard to see how you could do that without essentially using the Starviper MkII/Lieutenant Lorrir/Zeta Ace text.
2. If it's 'perform a barrel roll action' but use the different template, then you're still performing a barrel roll, which still invalidates BB-8, Vectored Thrusters and Expert Handling. If it's not a barrel roll action , then combining with those cards allows two barrel rolls a turn, which verges on the ridiculous; you shouldn't be able to go significantly faster sideways than you do forwards without changing your heading!
3. The Starviper, TIE fighter and TIE Interceptor are noted for being all spirally, swirly and manoeuvrable. Whilst you do see the 'massed barrel roll' in A New Hope, the X-wing is not specifically shown as being in the same league as the above, so giving them 'barrel roll plus' seems wrong for the same reason that SLAM, Daredevil, etc are essentially 'boost plus'.

20 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Generally FFG don't like to 'clone'

I agree with this idea, as new and interesting mechanics keep the game fresh and it's one of the reason I love this game is every wave changes the game or brings some new.

Am gonna keep thinking for the title; there has to be something fresh and interesting we can do; I've robbed the idea for "turn" for the S-Foil" below;

S-Foil - Upgrade; 1pts (Modification)

"X-wing Only. You may not equip this card if your action bar includes the [Boost] action icon".

"You may equip one additional modification at 0 pts"

When you perform a 3 turn, you may rotate this ship 90 degrees. Then receive one stress

^ 3 turn rather than hard, because the talon roll is the T70 hard turn and stress because in my mind for a classic X-Wing that would put same level of stress on the ship.

20 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Not that I'd mind taking Assaj/Latts (for example) down a peg or two

That's my white whale at the moment, not gonna lie.

I have just two words for you. Squadron. Mechanics.

Red Squadron Pilot / Leader title cards.
Blue Squadron Pilot / Leader title cards.
Green Squadron Pilot/ Leader title cards.
Gold Squadron Pilot / Leader cards.
Rogue Squadron Pilot / Leader title cards.

Titles which provide bonuses when you have other friendly ships with matching titles in range. For example:

Red Squadron Pilot "When a friendly ship with the Red Leader title at Range 1-2 perform an action, you may perform a free action of the same type. " 0 points

Red Leader "You may only equip this title if you are PS6 or higher. When you perform an attack against a target that a friendly ship with the Red Squadron title has a Target Lock on, roll one extra dice." 0 points

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Note that there's no such thing as a "T-65" in rules terms.

(To help people with their x-wing fix bingo cards)

Could FFG not just errata the ship names of all the T-65 pilots, to 'T65 X-Wing? It would be a trivial erratum to make, just a list that says 'The ship names for the following pilots should read 'T-65 X-Wing'', then a list.

Then do the same for the A Wing, B Wing, Y Wing, TIE Fighter, TIE Bomber, TIE Aggressor, and anything else which needs distinguishing from its inevitable TFA-era counterpart.

35 minutes ago, the1hodgy said:

^ 3 turn rather than hard, because the talon roll is the T70 hard turn and stress because in my mind for a classic X-Wing that would put same level of stress on the ship.

Sounds interesting. It does still feel a bit like "have a knock-off T-70", though.

Whilst it should be more limited in some way, I'd rather it be more flexible in others; hence the suggestion of making it a title you can attach to pilots.

My suggestion - feel free to pick holes.

Veteran T-65 Pilot

TITLE. X-wing Only.

You may not equip this card if your action bar includes the [Boost] action icon or your Pilot Skill is 6 or lower.

If you are not stressed, after completing a [Straight] or [Bank] manoeuvre, you may rotate this ship 90 degrees, following the rules for placing a ship when executing a barrel roll.

Then receive 1 stress token after your "perform action step".

• Making it straight or bank only (as you noted) makes it less capable than the 'full corkscrew' of a T-70's Talon Roll.
• Making it any straight or bank gives you advantages as well as disadvantages, because it's the pilot, not the ship, in this case.
• Because it's the pilot, tying it to a title and a PS limit makes more sense than a modification.
• "If you are not stressed" is a key requirement - it's not necessarily mandatory, but generally stuff like this is either "if you are not stressed" or it's a "then discard this card" (like inertial dampeners or lightning reflexes).
• Specify 'complete' not just 'execute' a manoeuvre. Because if you managed to complete the manoeuvre, there must be space for the ship, therefore there will be space to place the ship after you pick it up and then put it back again 'barrel-roll-fashion'.
• Stress because stuff like this should be either an action or stress.
• After the 'perform action' step so you can still get your action as a sort of 'knock-off pattern analyser'. Including an actual barrel roll, where you to purchase an appropriate upgrade. (Lets try spinning - that's a good trick!)

20 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

I have just two words for you. Squadron. Mechanics.

Red Squadron Pilot / Leader title cards.
Blue Squadron Pilot / Leader title cards.
Green Squadron Pilot/ Leader title cards.
Gold Squadron Pilot / Leader cards.
Rogue Squadron Pilot / Leader title cards.

Titles which provide bonuses when you have other friendly ships with matching titles in range. For example:

Red Squadron Pilot "When a friendly ship with the Red Leader title at Range 1-2 perform an action, you may perform a free action of the same type. " 0 points

Red Leader "You may only equip this title if you are PS6 or higher. When you perform an attack against a target that a friendly ship with the Red Squadron title has a Target Lock on, roll one extra dice." 0 points

I do like the idea of squadron cards/squadron tokens, and I think it's be a great tool to bring in, both for 'generic' squadrons (escort squadron, ambush squadron. strike squadron) and 'famous' specific squadrons (Red, Rogue, Black, Rho, etc). See my thoughts here (post that matters quoted below):

On ‎14‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 0:14 PM, Magnus Grendel said:

indeed. I'd be tempted to make it a pilot-sized card, rather than an upgrade-sized card.

This gives you room to:

• Define specific pilots (not just ships) who are viable members. This is an optional approach, in a sense that you can have some which do define specific pilots, and some which don't; so "Strike Squadron" just requires 'Small Ship with an equipped [Missile] or [Torpedo] upgrade', "Ace Group" might be 'Unique Small Ships with Pilot Skill 7 or higher", 'Red Squadron' might be "X-wing with PS4 or higher only", whilst "Saber Squadron" requires 'Saber Squadron Pilot, Lieutenant Lorrir, Fel's Wrath, Turr Phennir, or Soontir Fel". Firstly this gives you a mechanic to reward "theme-correct" squadrons with the appropriate roster, secondly, it gives you a balancing mechanism which can 'reach in' to the existing roster of pilots and provide a boost which specifically benefits pilots who need more help than others in the same ship (the TIE advanced can always use a bit of help, but doing so without making Darth Vader better and the other pilots still proportionately no more attractive is currently quite hard)
• Squadron cards themselves could be generic or unique. Theoretically, you might have 4 TIE fighters and a pair of bombers, from different squadrons (if they fit in the points), but you should obviously only be able to use some squadron cards once, on very specific ships.
• Have a larger 'space' for rules mechanics.
• Potentially have an 'upgrade bar' on the squadron card. Much like 'Youngster' lets you buy an EPT and apply it to all nearby TIE fighters, essentially providing a (second) discounted EPT slot, a squadron card might have an EPT slot you can fill that benefits all squadron members. Equally, you might have a large upgrade bar with half a dozen upgrade slots for Elite upgrades, but restrict it to 'discard-on-use' cards like Crack Shot, Cool Hand, Lightning Reflexes or Adrenaline Rush, giving your squadron a 'pool' it can draw from.

You then need a means to attach it to specific ships. Condition tokens are a possibility, but littering the board in permanent, never-removed conditions seems silly. A 'squadron token' which sits on the pilot card wouldn't be unreasonable, though:

• The squadron card itself should definitely cost points if the abilities are good enough to matter but you don't want them to be an auto-include. Having a flat cost makes 'packing out' the squadron appealing, so is probably a good thing.
• How you get the points for the squadron is key; wiping it out seems a little harsh, because if you've taken a pure Interceptor squad (or whatever), making the value of the Saber Squadron card inaccessible without tabling the enemy seems unfair. My suggestion would be a loss of over half the squadron members - when people complained about large ship 'points fortresses', this was the response (do 1/2 damage), and no-one has really complained about it that I've seen. Getting the points value for the Squadron Card as if it was a destroyed ship if half or more of the ships with that squadron token have been destroyed is fairly easy to understand and calculate.
• If you move the squadron token back onto the squadron card as members are killed, firstly you get an easy reference (are there as many or more squadron tokens on the squadron card as on ships still in play) and secondly you have the potential for a game mechanic where a squadron gets better (or worse!) as its members are destroyed - 'friendly ships with this squadron token increase their pilot skill by 1 for every squadron token on this card', for example.
• This also gives you room for "one of these is not like the other" - where one of the squadron tokens is 'Tempest Leader' rather than 'Tempest Squadron', and your bonuses relate to being in proximity to them, or where an 'Assassin Squadron' hands out a nominated 'victim' token (akin to the 'bounty' ID token in the Preystalker mission) and the squadron bonus is essentially "go kill that one guy in the face".
• Assigning squadron membership at deployment (at the same time as things like Agent Kallus and A Score To Settle are assigned) means you 'buy' your squadron card(s) in squad building but can potentially define their membership on the fly. Imagine you have two cards; 'Strike Squadron' and 'Escort Squadron', and a squad with two TIE bombers loaded for Ace-hunting (Long Range Scanners/Crack Shot/Homing Missiles) and two for Big-Ship Hunting (Guidance Chips/Deadeye/Plasma Torpedoes/Extra Munitions). If your squadron cards provide you with two (or more) tokens for each squadron, you can define the ace-killers or big ship killers as the 'strike' and the others as the 'escort' depending on the composition of the enemy force, much like you get to decide who is the most threatening thing in the enemy force to assign A Debt To Pay/Agent Kallus to.

18 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Red Squadron Pilot "When a friendly ship with the Red Leader title at Range 1-2 perform an action, you may perform a free action of the same type. " 0 points

Red Leader "You may only equip this title if you are PS6 or higher. When you perform an attack against a target that a friendly ship with the Red Squadron title has a Target Lock on, roll one extra dice." 0 points

So mini-mindlink for free? No thanks.

7 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I do like the idea of squadron cards/squadron tokens, and I think it's be a great tool to bring in, both for 'generic' squadrons (escort squadron, ambush squadron. strike squadron) and 'famous' specific squadrons (Red, Rogue, Black, Rho, etc). See my thoughts here (post that matters quoted below):

It would certainly have the potential to change up standard play a bit, while buffing some of the currently underpowered ships. Passive bonuses for multiple ships of the same type; squadron leaders becoming priority targets; formation flying becoming more important...

The actual nature of the benefits is obviously up for debate, but the idea as a functioning game mechanic sounds really good to me.

Exactly. The idea is:

• Squadron Mechanics are a fundamentally 'new' element to gameplay, and one that meaningfully affects both the squad-building and 'deploy forces' stage.
• It's something that should be available, if available to anyone, to all factions; it's not like a gimmicky variation on a token mechanic, but rather a fundamental means to attach as yet undefined rules to ships.
• One of the enduring problems in the game is the difficulty, at the moment, in attaching a 'fix' to the 3-4 'bad' pilots of a ship without massively improving the one who does see use.
• The more open-ended you can make it, the better
• Making it a new card-and-attaching-token means you're not using existing slots (like titles) which would prevent ships that have already have titles either as 'fixes' (TIE defender) or as core mechanics (TIE striker) from using title-based squadron mechanics.

I agree that any given bonus is something you need to plan and playtest for cost and effectiveness, but all I'm trying to argue for is a way to create 'blank card space' to which rules can be attached. Doing it as a squadron card rather than 3+ upgrade cards with separate ships allows you to have one card affecting many ships, which also saves on clutter.

4 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

(To help people with their x-wing fix bingo cards)

Could FFG not just errata the ship names of all the T-65 pilots, to 'T65 X-Wing? It would be a trivial erratum to make, just a list that says 'The ship names for the following pilots should read 'T-65 X-Wing'', then a list.

Then do the same for the A Wing, B Wing, Y Wing, TIE Fighter, TIE Bomber, TIE Aggressor, and anything else which needs distinguishing from its inevitable TFA-era counterpart.

8 minutes ago, Bullox said:

just use a sharpie and print T-65 in front of the X-Wing

Urgh the though of this wounds me to my soul.........Won't some body think of the cards!

7 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Note that there's no such thing as a "T-65" in rules terms.

There is a Resistance and Rebel distinction though.

Rebel X-Wing only would be a way to limit an upgrade to the T-65. Unless and until the Resistance get a T-65 in which case *shrug* whadayagonado?

8 hours ago, the1hodgy said:

what it lacks is movement (greens) and re-positioning.

Not a Rebel player but don't R2 Astromech and Vectored Thrusters or Engine Upgrade solves help with that?

4 minutes ago, Sasajak said:

Not a Rebel player but don't R2 Astromech and Vectored Thrusters or Engine Upgrade solves help with that?

Both go in the integrated Astromech slot and Engine costs way too much.

1 minute ago, Sasajak said:

Not a Rebel player but don't R2 Astromech and Vectored Thrusters or Engine Upgrade solves help with that?

They do, but x-wings feel entitled to free upgrades for having top billing. Prima Donnas, the lot of them!

Any ship with at least 1 pilot seen in competitive play is in a comparitively good place right now. X-wings are far from first in line for yet another fix.