2 hours ago, shosuko said:

afaik - you gain 1 honor if an honored personality leaves play, and you lose 1 honor if a dishonored personality leaves play. You lose 1 honor if a conflict resolves and you have no defenders, but I don't think you lose if an attack resolves without attackers. You lose 5 honor if you deck out of either deck and need to draw from it, with this you reshuffle the deck back. Then there is the honor exchange that occurs with bidding for draw and duels.

Are there any other innate honor / dishonor / trade effects that happen in the game rules?

From there, in game we have the ability to dishonor in Crab from Watch Commander, Intimidating bushi, and levy. What other dishonor cards are there? I haven't gone through all of the cards enough to exactly recall.

When considering how much you can bid it's important to consider these other factors. Right now I think a bid of 2-3 is probably safe, and you can adapt to your opponent.

I wonder what testing went on to come up with the whole lose honor and reshuffle your deck. I haven't really seen any game come close to running low on cards. My only guess is that perhaps a clan really likes a milling, deck thinning, or draw/discard mechanic. That or someone suggested it after a long game where either player (or perhaps both) ran out of cards.

22 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

I wonder what testing went on to come up with the whole lose honor and reshuffle your deck. I haven't really seen any game come close to running low on cards. My only guess is that perhaps a clan really likes a milling, deck thinning, or draw/discard mechanic. That or someone suggested it after a long game where either player (or perhaps both) ran out of cards.

Perhaps future Dishonor decks will rely on discarding cards from the opponent's deck?

43 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

I wonder what testing went on to come up with the whole lose honor and reshuffle your deck. I haven't really seen any game come close to running low on cards. My only guess is that perhaps a clan really likes a milling, deck thinning, or draw/discard mechanic. That or someone suggested it after a long game where either player (or perhaps both) ran out of cards.

Closest I have gone is down to 12 on my dynasty. It wasn't an especially long game. It was just Lion

I've seen a game get fairly close to a reshuffle. Me playing a stalling/control style Crane vs Lion. Ultimately I lost about 2 turns before the reshuffle would happen, but, the potential is there.

With Lion potentially seeing upwards of 6 cards a turn plus any province breaks or face up cards remaining in previously broken provinces there is a very real chance that they could reshuffle before the game ends and I think is something opposing decks should consider as a strategy against the Lion in particular.

8 hours ago, sndwurks said:

Dishonor will become viable as a victory condition when the Scorpion Clan start getting "Discard a card in target province" as a reliable, Personality based action. You can control, to an extent, how many Conflict cards you draw a turn. You have less control over how many Dynasty cards cycle through your Provinces each turn. With the "Lose 5 honor, and shuffle your discard pile to create your new deck", I expect to see a Scorpion Clan deck secure victory with Dishonor by stalemating the game and burning through their opponent's Dynasty deck repeatedly to dishonor them out.

You don't really need a dynasty discard, the forced cycling of provinces is already baked into the rules. Face up cards that are in broken provinces at the end of each turn get discarded. If you are playing a stalling game you can break a couple provinces and then you opponent has to buy the characters in those broken provinces that turn it else.

I prefer what FFG has done here by baking into the mechanics a way to play a more controlled game without relying on cards that create NPE just to promote a style of play. This forces interaction on the controlling players part. Instead of just playing a bunch of hate cards.

I'd be pretty pissed to lose without ever really playing the game.......which was a big problem with the CCG from the very beginning.

9 hours ago, JJ48 said:

I think it depends on what you mean by "feature". Some people see wins by breaking provinces and say, "See? Honor and Dishonor aren't as important as military/political skill!" In doing so, some of them ignore the fact that merely getting close to an Honor/Dishonor victory or loss can cause people to play differently than they might otherwise.

What a curious position... First, the game has incorporated Honour/Dishonour into its core mechanics. They can never be truly "ignored" as you put it. Second, by definition, the threat of a result still falls short of the result itself. An opponent playing differently only matters this shifts his intended goal. If it doesn't, the initial goal remains intact regardless of the shift in play.

I think the OP has it right: Dishonour can be a "threat". An indirect method to creating a stronger board state. That's the appropriate classification for Dishonour, IMO. Enough to impact the game, but not enough to change the mode of the game result, which is still trying to break provinces.

1 hour ago, Sparks Duh said:

Not really rules, but the Air ring effect can have your opponent take 1 honor from ya.

thx, what is the air ring's effect please?

11 hours ago, phillos said:

Harsh. The game isn't even out yet.

I put Levy in a Crane deck and it felt pretty strong. It's an expensive splash but if you wait until they have no fate to force the honor swing I think there's something there worth considering. To force that to happen with a card out of hand seemed tactically powerful in the current card pool. If I can hold 2 or 3 of those in my hand and spring them when not expected that could close the gap enough to close out the game. I'd like to see when the Scorpions get spoiled just how interesting it is in their decks.

As much as I like the dishonor support I have a hard time justifying including Levy over a card that actually does something to help win battles.

48 minutes ago, shosuko said:

thx, what is the air ring's effect please?

Your choice of either you gain 2 honor or your opponent loses 1 honor and you gain 1 honor.

Every faction has ways to win battles and they'll get more as time goes on. I don't particularly care one way or another if Levy ends up being a popular card or binder card, but it does right now kind of have a unique place in the card pool and I feel like it might be a stronger effect out of faction (which is probably why they made it 3 influence).

36 minutes ago, shineyorkboy said:

As much as I like the dishonor support I have a hard time justifying including Levy over a card that actually does something to help win battles.

That depends... Sometimes you don't need MORE cards in the deck. We have a 40 card deck, and we can have 3x of any card in there. Say you're playing Crab and picked 10 really solid cards that you have in play sets, and then in influence you pick up a few more, but you have some extra spots left. You can put in Levy, and use these cards to basically replace themselves by allowing you to bid higher for draw. Keeping a deck trim can be important and deck minimums can sometimes feel like too much.

I don't know if I like it as a splash though - its 3 influence and that is high... You better LOVE your 37 card clan deck to splash 3x levy...

Quote

Your choice of either you gain 2 honor or your opponent loses 1 honor and you gain 1 honor.

thx - so by the inherent features / rules of the game we have:

Gain 1 honor if a character leaves play honored. Lose 1 honor if a character leaves play dishonored.

Activating the Air ring lets you gain 2 honor, or take 1.

If you deck out and need to draw a card from that deck you lose 5 honor and reshuffle your deck to continue play.

Any bids for card draw or duels give the difference in bids as honor to the loser.

@shosuko

In terms of "extra spots" in a Conflict Deck: This completely depends upon the intended win condition (likely, breaking provinces) and the power level of all neutral cards. "Charge" seems amazing, regardless of the deck. "Banzai" seems strong, regardless of the deck. etc... Enough of these cards in an environment will ensure cards like Levy are left out of decks. Unless, the deck itself is geared towards Dishonouring your opponent out of the game. Then, Levy's importance in those "extra" card slots becomes that much greater... It still comes down to win condition.

As it stands, breaking provinces is the primary avenue to winning. And in order to break provinces, you have to win battles. Ergo, cards that better serve winning battles will supersede cards that do not. I think @shineyorkboy has it right.

1 hour ago, shineyorkboy said:

As much as I like the dishonor support I have a hard time justifying including Levy over a card that actually does something to help win battles.

LMFAO!!!! This comment makes me laugh so hard! Seriously, I have tears in my eyes!!!!

1 - Levy is card cycle (deck thinner) and potential dishonoring out threat OR

2 - Levy gives you a fate

BOTH of those are pretty **** good in this game, imo.

Also, remember that if your opponent doesn't have any fate, they HAVE to give you honor.

42 minutes ago, Anemura said:

@shosuko

In terms of "extra spots" in a Conflict Deck: This completely depends upon the intended win condition (likely, breaking provinces) and the power level of all neutral cards. "Charge" seems amazing, regardless of the deck. "Banzai" seems strong, regardless of the deck. etc... Enough of these cards in an environment will ensure cards like Levy are left out of decks. Unless, the deck itself is geared towards Dishonouring your opponent out of the game. Then, Levy's importance in those "extra" card slots becomes that much greater... It still comes down to win condition.

As it stands, breaking provinces is the primary avenue to winning. And in order to break provinces, you have to win battles. Ergo, cards that better serve winning battles will supersede cards that do not. I think @shineyorkboy has it right.

That doesn't change anything - you want the thinnest deck possible so that it is the most consistent in operating a specific way. This is a rule of deck building that is true through out all card games. Charge and Banzai may be great cards, but that may mean including them and excluding others that don't fit that theme. There will always be the "most optimal" cards, and sometimes a deck plays better if it can find a way to cheat the minimum deck size to use only the best of the best cards. Just having 3x Levy in a deck means you can bid that much more aggressively from the start - knowing that you can recoup 3 honor from those cards as they come up.

Hmm, I suppose I was mostly worried about Levy being a dead card in hand during the early game, and I still maintain that it is if you see it during the conflict phase, but if you play it during the dynasty phase then bid two instead of one then even if you just end up giving the honor back to your opponent it has technically replaced itself.

I found in my own crane crab combos that I the crab did not bid 1 for cards then the crane would threaten honor very fast indeed. If the crab bid 1 then the crane tended to bump along around and below starting honor but was then quite capable of matching crab in taking provinces.

switch to crab going for cards to then the cranes honor flies so fast that the crab taking provinces can be absorbed. Here the 'not losing a provinces draw capability when lost' turns out to be a big change in competetivrness.

due to the mono thing suddenly switching to 1 card draws when the crane is close to honouring does not guarente the win or loss.

as crane I found honor/dishonor seems less important to my game play than province taking but that if a player ignores either then you can adjust your own game play to take advantage.

4 hours ago, shosuko said:

That doesn't change anything - you want the thinnest deck possible so that it is the most consistent in operating a specific way. This is a rule of deck building that is true through out all card games. Charge and Banzai may be great cards, but that may mean including them and excluding others that don't fit that theme. There will always be the "most optimal" cards, and sometimes a deck plays better if it can find a way to cheat the minimum deck size to use only the best of the best cards. Just having 3x Levy in a deck means you can bid that much more aggressively from the start - knowing that you can recoup 3 honor from those cards as they come up.

With the way New5R is structured, Levy by _itself_ is not a "deck thinner". Unless of course you want to classify all effects that manipulate honour as deck thinners. Do you consider the Ring of Air and Kakita Asami as deck thinners?

A Conflict Card that can either generate or manipulate 1 honour has the potential to have that honour be converted to a Conflict Card Draw, yes. However, that 1 honour effect may not be necessary in drawing said Conflict Card. And so, instead of being a 1:1 deck thinning relationship, it ends up being the potential to draw 1 Conflict Card -- given various factors. Much in the same way Brash Samurai can result in an extra Conflict Card drawn, given various factors.

Levy isn't a bad card. It has its uses. It's not a direct deck thinner like "A New Alliance" was in Old5R, or cards of that ilk were. So there is a difference in how it's strength can be interpreted across all cards in the LCG field. It's situational, which renders it below a class of cards that will be optimal.

34 minutes ago, Anemura said:

With the way New5R is structured, Levy by _itself_ is not a "deck thinner". Unless of course you want to classify all effects that manipulate honour as deck thinners. Do you consider the Ring of Air and Kakita Asami as deck thinners?

A Conflict Card that can either generate or manipulate 1 honour has the potential to have that honour be converted to a Conflict Card Draw, yes. However, that 1 honour effect may not be necessary in drawing said Conflict Card. And so, instead of being a 1:1 deck thinning relationship, it ends up being the potential to draw 1 Conflict Card -- given various factors. Much in the same way Brash Samurai can result in an extra Conflict Card drawn, given various factors.

Levy isn't a bad card. It has it has its uses. It's certainly not a direct Fate (Conflict) deck thinner like "A New Alliance" in Old5R, or cards of that ilk. So there is a difference in how it's strength can be interpreted across all cards in the field. It's situational, which renders it below a class of cards that will be optimal.

The main difficulty with Levy is that it is a 3 influence cost... The Crane can gain more honor than other clans, and that ability to gain honor can directly translate to a card advantage as they can consistently bid higher without honoring out. It's actually an interesting relationship because having levy, or having Kakita Asami in your deck can allow you to be more bold with your bids before you even have that card - trusting that you can recoup your losses with that card when the time comes. The Air ring can do the same, but you aren't limited in Rings the same way you are limited in cards... With Rings you can repeatedly grab your chosen ring, which may well be the ring of air, but with cards you must draw randomly out of a deck that cannot be thinner than 40 cards, and if there is a certain card you need for a certain situation then you want to be able to draw deep.

I'm not saying Levy is an auto include, or worth a splash. Not every deck has the need to be thinner than the deck minimum... but we don't even know all of the cards in the core set yet - to be dismissive of this card when it presents such an important mechanic in these types of games is a mistake. I doubt it's worth the influence, but for the Crab it means they might play for combos or rely on fewer, stronger cards.

I was under the impression that Crab's preferred play style would be to underbid, bleed honor from the opponent, and make up the difference with superior dynasty side card draw.

4 hours ago, Sparks Duh said:

LMFAO!!!! This comment makes me laugh so hard! Seriously, I have tears in my eyes!!!!

1 - Levy is card cycle (deck thinner) and potential dishonoring out threat OR

2 - Levy gives you a fate

BOTH of those are pretty **** good in this game, imo.

Also, remember that if your opponent doesn't have any fate, they HAVE to give you honor.

I don't know if it's a good or a bad thing to share an opinion with Sparks...

Levy is a hard card to evaluate but I look at like this:

Imagine your Dynasty deck and Conflict deck are cogs of a wheel. Both have good cards, but to create good win conditions you need them to 'mesh' together. (Cards from both the Dynasty deck and Conflict deck available to play at the same time).

This might happen by chance, but to increase the chance of getting that 'mesh' to happen you need to draw quickly from either or both decks - get those cogs spinning.

The Dynasty deck / cog is spun through the Fate resource (paying for characters). The Conflict Deck / cog spun by card draw (high honour bids).

The 'ideal' is to spin both cogs fast - spending Fate and Honour to get the cards you need to win. Obviously there are some cards that help you do that for a low cost or free.

Levy is the opposite to those cards- it punishes the player who is doing *both* (they run out of Fate & have spent a lot of Honour).

I think that's largely why it has a high Influence cost, because it is really quite powerful when used at the right moment (typically when an opponent has over extended).

Remember that drawing Conflict cards results in you having less Honour and your opponent having more Honour. Every Conflict card should be read as having the additional implicit game text "Give your opponent 1 Honour."

This is why Levy is a null card: it literally does nothing. You gave your opponent 1 Honour when you drew it, and then they gave that Honour back when you played it. As long as both of you have enough of an Honour buffer that you can afford this, Levy is meaningless.

It's also harmless. If you put three copies of Levy in your deck then your deck essentially only has 37 cards in it. This is exciting for anyone who likes building slender decks.

4 minutes ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

Remember that drawing Conflict cards results in you having less Honour and your opponent having more Honour. Every Conflict card should be read as having the additional implicit game text "Give your opponent 1 Honour."

This is why Levy is a null card: it literally does nothing. You gave your opponent 1 Honour when you drew it, and then they gave that Honour back when you played it. As long as both of you have enough of an Honour buffer that you can afford this, Levy is meaningless.

It's also harmless. If you put three copies of Levy in your deck then your deck essentially only has 37 cards in it. This is exciting for anyone who likes building slender decks.

Unless you drew it with Funeral Pyre or Shrewd Yasuki or Kaiu Envoy or Imperial Storehouse.

3 minutes ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

It's also harmless. If you put three copies of Levy in your deck then your deck essentially only has 37 cards in it. This is exciting for anyone who likes building slender decks.

In nearly every card game I ever played you don't put more cards in your deck than you have to, for obvious reasons. And thats exactly the reason why Levy is great and NOT harmless/meaningless!

That Levy can generate Fate, if your opponent is at low honor, makes it even better.

12 hours ago, shosuko said:

The main difficulty with Levy is that it is a 3 influence cost... The Crane can gain more honor than other clans, and that ability to gain honor can directly translate to a card advantage as they can consistently bid higher without honoring out. It's actually an interesting relationship because having levy, or having Kakita Asami in your deck can allow you to be more bold with your bids before you even have that card - trusting that you can recoup your losses with that card when the time comes. The Air ring can do the same, but you aren't limited in Rings the same way you are limited in cards... With Rings you can repeatedly grab your chosen ring, which may well be the ring of air, but with cards you must draw randomly out of a deck that cannot be thinner than 40 cards, and if there is a certain card you need for a certain situation then you want to be able to draw deep.

I'm not saying Levy is an auto include, or worth a splash. Not every deck has the need to be thinner than the deck minimum... but we don't even know all of the cards in the core set yet - to be dismissive of this card when it presents such an important mechanic in these types of games is a mistake. I doubt it's worth the influence, but for the Crab it means they might play for combos or rely on fewer, stronger cards.

If you're not proposing that Levy is an "auto include" or "even worth a splash", then we are more or less in agreement about it's worth. That's not being "dismissive" about a card. It's understanding said card's effects and how it currently stacks up against other spoiled cards.

Further, it sounds like you are also categorizing Ring of Air and Kakita Asami to be "deck thinners", in that they allow a player to "consistently bid higher" in order to "draw deep". If this is the correct assessment of your post, then you are acknowledging that other clans may devalue the inclusion of Levy because of their own Honour gaining mechanics (which help draw cards). Levy may serve to supplement these decks. Or, these decks may draw cards well enough that they don't need Levy. The Influence Cost further prohibits the use of the card out of clan.

I like it for Crab because it serves to level a potential card disadvantage given up to more Honoured opponents. It may also serve the Scorpion as a dishonour splash down the line.

11 hours ago, Kubernes said:

I wonder what testing went on to come up with the whole lose honor and reshuffle your deck. I haven't really seen any game come close to running low on cards. My only guess is that perhaps a clan really likes a milling, deck thinning, or draw/discard mechanic. That or someone suggested it after a long game where either player (or perhaps both) ran out of cards.

Having attempted a game of Crab v Crab, I can see reshuffle happening just by stalled gameplay. We were almost always bidding at 2/3 cards a round, and pulling in 2 dynasty people. It'd be a slow burn but we could have probably decked out sooner or later. And we kept basically bumping heads against each other, no attack really could get past the other's defenses effectively.