I played a round of Crab vs Crane the other day and on the second or so turn, I suddenly had my opponent on the dishonor ropes. He duels me using his crane bro and I know that I will lose the duel, but I drop a 1 anyhow. I was attacking and he was pretty worried so he dropped a 5. Our honor switched to 15 (me, Crab) to 4 (him, Crane) I then play a levy and he is pretty scared at this point and decides to hand me a fate there. Now he worked his way out of the pit, but it meant that he had to be much more conservative going forward and had to take the ring of air for 2 honor to get out of the danger zone. While it didn't decide the game dishonor felt like a real threat in this game. It forced my opponent to play differently and allowed me to put a little more pressure on that gave me the victory. Also way of the crab worked really well when he had to defend (he was down to provinces) with his clan champ and one other and I had 5 personalities on board. I killed off a Kaiu bro and boom, clan champion had to win a conflict, but I brought military and then got the stronghold with a political conflict. Pretty fun and I like how dishonor actually feels like a threat even though I wasn't playing a dishonor focus game, it just happened that I threw a low duel to get the pressure on. Yes he won the duel, but now I had a lot of threat to help push a win.

I think that people are going to underestimate the impact of honor and dishonor in this game, especially early on.

I don't know if either is a viable or reliable win strategy as of right now, but they are definitely threatening when you're in the 5 to 7 honor range for dishonor or they're in the 20 to 24 honor range for honoring out. Both scenarios can really alter the way you play the game.

The big problem for Honor decks is the journey from 11 honor to 7 honor (danger zone for dishonor) is much shorter than the journey from 11 to 20 honor (danger zone for honor) haha.

I have high hopes that Crab dishonor becomes the "defensive" strategy that meshes with all their defensive abilities. And, if it isn't there yet, it may only be 1 or 2 cards away :).

I have pretty similar experiences, honestly, the dishonor threat is pretty real from most of my Crab games. It's of course pretty tough to actually win that way, but you definitely force suboptimal plays. Watch Commander is the big threat, of course, and I seem to be a pro at pulling the thing, so maybe I've just been lucky so far. Intimidating Hida is an annoyance, too, especially early, and he's decently useful otherwise. Levy is the weakest card in my experience, you're giving up a conflict card for very little effect. Still, I'm glad to see the dishonor at least have an impact on the game.

This is a beautiful illustration of what I think is a very deep point: dishonour is more powerful as a threat than as a win condition.

It's really hard to push somebody down from 4 Honour to 0. Really hard. However, being down that low means that they can't play effectively:

- They have to bid 1 in every duel and every draw.

- They have to pick the bad option when Levy is played.

- They have to watch the rings like a hawk.

This means that by pushing someone's Honour down that far, you have won yourself a huge advantage in the important part of the game (the bit with conflicts and provinces) and are more likely to win a conventional victory.

If I'm correct, then dishonour decks will be viable even if the dishonour victory condition itself doesn't happen much. The threat of dishonour forces them into sub-optimal play, and that may be enough.

6 minutes ago, Joe From Cincinnati said:

I think that people are going to underestimate the impact of honor and dishonor in this game, especially early on.

I don't know if either is a viable or reliable win strategy as of right now, but they are definitely threatening when you're in the 5 to 7 honor range for dishonor or they're in the 20 to 24 honor range for honoring out. Both scenarios can really alter the way you play the game.

The big problem for Honor decks is the journey from 11 honor to 7 honor (danger zone for dishonor) is much shorter than the journey from 11 to 20 honor (danger zone for honor) haha.

I have high hopes that Crab dishonor becomes the "defensive" strategy that meshes with all their defensive abilities. And, if it isn't there yet, it may only be 1 or 2 cards away :).

Yeah, I agree, the tools aren't there yet to dishonor win, but the threat of it is still real. Also maybe it is just an effect of not playing towards it as much. It feels like all of the cards have combat stats so they should go to combat. Old dishonor had lots of bowing and low combat people with explicit dishonor effects. I think you have to change your mindset and draw less conflict cards and take the air ring and play your dishonor cards to keep the pressure on and that will change the feel. I think most of the people excited for the game are Old L5R players and back then dishonor was a deck archetype and now it seems like it is part of a deck and not the focus of the deck.

As much as I want legit dishonor play, if this is true, then I am also good with it.

The only thing I like more than ratting you out to the Emperor about how you're a meanie, is watching you get hold your head and squirm with bad choices.

#justscorpionthings

1 hour ago, wolfien8 said:

He duels me using his crane bro and I know that I will lose the duel, but I drop a 1 anyhow. I was attacking and he was pretty worried so he dropped a 5. Our honor switched to 15 (me, Crab) to 4 (him, Crane) I then play a levy and he is pretty scared at this point and decides to hand me a fate there.

This just sounds like a bad player to me. I wouldn't dig too deep in to this. If your opponent makes stupid decisions, he/she SHOULD be punished for doing so.

Harsh. The game isn't even out yet.

I put Levy in a Crane deck and it felt pretty strong. It's an expensive splash but if you wait until they have no fate to force the honor swing I think there's something there worth considering. To force that to happen with a card out of hand seemed tactically powerful in the current card pool. If I can hold 2 or 3 of those in my hand and spring them when not expected that could close the gap enough to close out the game. I'd like to see when the Scorpions get spoiled just how interesting it is in their decks.

5 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

This just sounds like a bad player to me. I wouldn't dig too deep in to this. If your opponent makes stupid decisions, he/she SHOULD be punished for doing so.

I think he made a mistake here yes, but he couldn't have guessed that I would go so low. He was punished, but he needed to win or else I would have destroyed his province. He was trying to secure the defense because I had the 1-cost guy who can pump others guys/holding. If that guy had stayed, I would have gotten the province for sure. It was a risk that hurt him later. I knew that if I bid 5, I might win or tie, but I didn't need to succeed here, just exhaust resources since I knew I wouldn't break the province, but he didn't know my plans and I did. He took a gamble that hurt him, but it saved the province.

8 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

This just sounds like a bad player to me. I wouldn't dig too deep in to this. If your opponent makes stupid decisions, he/she SHOULD be punished for doing so.

A bid for 5 means the player likely really needed to win the duel, and the characters were at equal force. The Crane is either bluffing, and will be throwing the duel and the battle in hopes of stealing honor, or the Crane aren't bluffing and need to bid 5 to win. The Crab player then has a choice, bid 5 and win if its a bluff, and hand the Crane the honor or bid 1 and take any honor with the loss of the duel. If Crane is already losing the game, they may not afford to lose the battle immediately and the Crab player can read this to throw a bid of 1.

To me that is what the situation sounds like. Pretty tense!! I'm excited for the new dueling mechanic as it really turns honor into steel.

---

I agree with the assessment - both gaining much honor, and losing much honor put other binders on the game that change how its played. I don't see any reliable path to actually dishonor someone out, but it restricts their choices in bidding for draw and duels. If you can afford to bid just 1 as well, then the game is on the slow road to a close.

Has anyone threatened or achieved an honor victory while losing in provinces? I wonder how difficult it is to steal a win with honor.

3 minutes ago, shosuko said:

A bid for 5 means the player likely really needed to win the duel, and the characters were at equal force. The Crane is either bluffing, and will be throwing the duel and the battle in hopes of stealing honor, or the Crane aren't bluffing and need to bid 5 to win. The Crab player then has a choice, bid 5 and win if its a bluff, and hand the Crane the honor or bid 1 and take any honor with the loss of the duel. If Crane is already losing the game, they may not afford to lose the battle immediately and the Crab player can read this to throw a bid of 1.

To me that is what the situation sounds like. Pretty tense!! I'm excited for the new dueling mechanic as it really turns honor into steel.

---

I agree with the assessment - both gaining much honor, and losing much honor put other binders on the game that change how its played. I don't see any reliable path to actually dishonor someone out, but it restricts their choices in bidding for draw and duels. If you can afford to bid just 1 as well, then the game is on the slow road to a close.

Has anyone threatened or achieved an honor victory while losing in provinces? I wonder how difficult it is to steal a win with honor.

You can see it in my response, but this was the case, he needed to win the duel, I did not. It was tense and he knew he needed that defensive duel or I could pump up my crab character and pop his province leaving him down 2-0

I have a Lion deck that honors out pretty consistently. Once I have lost 3 provinces I starting bidding 5,usually,for defence and or win. I have to stay even with them on provinces though.

It has also won with dishonor twice.

14 minutes ago, BayushiCroy said:

I have a Lion deck that honors out pretty consistently. Once I have lost 3 provinces I starting bidding 5,usually,for defence and or win. I have to stay even with them on provinces though.

It has also won with dishonor twice.

What allowed you to push through to the dishonor win? Was there some dishonor effect you were using? Or did you trap them with Levi?

9 minutes ago, shosuko said:

What allowed you to push through to the dishonor win? Was there some dishonor effect you were using? Or did you trap them with Levi?

That wasn't out yet. 1 was after they played assassinate because they HAD to win that fight but it brought them down to 2 or 3. And an air Toturi to take 2 from them hurt.

The other they were bidding aggressively but were winning air to take my honor. So even though I was climbing pretty well from their bids, I wasn't close to winning. They started a Duel and I bid 1.

Dishonoring them was then easier than winning to PB or honor, so I played full on defence, always attacked twice a turn so they HAD to defend or lose honor, trying to win air and fire.

Haven't been able to play much since the new cards.

Dishonor will become viable as a victory condition when the Scorpion Clan start getting "Discard a card in target province" as a reliable, Personality based action. You can control, to an extent, how many Conflict cards you draw a turn. You have less control over how many Dynasty cards cycle through your Provinces each turn. With the "Lose 5 honor, and shuffle your discard pile to create your new deck", I expect to see a Scorpion Clan deck secure victory with Dishonor by stalemating the game and burning through their opponent's Dynasty deck repeatedly to dishonor them out.

17 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

Dishonor will become viable as a victory condition when the Scorpion Clan start getting "Discard a card in target province" as a reliable, Personality based action. You can control, to an extent, how many Conflict cards you draw a turn. You have less control over how many Dynasty cards cycle through your Provinces each turn. With the "Lose 5 honor, and shuffle your discard pile to create your new deck", I expect to see a Scorpion Clan deck secure victory with Dishonor by stalemating the game and burning through their opponent's Dynasty deck repeatedly to dishonor them out.

In Old5R it was fun to control their provinces with Scorpion. I remember forcing my friend to never be able to play personalities.

37 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

Dishonor will become viable as a victory condition when the Scorpion Clan start getting "Discard a card in target province" as a reliable, Personality based action. You can control, to an extent, how many Conflict cards you draw a turn. You have less control over how many Dynasty cards cycle through your Provinces each turn. With the "Lose 5 honor, and shuffle your discard pile to create your new deck", I expect to see a Scorpion Clan deck secure victory with Dishonor by stalemating the game and burning through their opponent's Dynasty deck repeatedly to dishonor them out.

I hope you're wrong. A stalemate is rarely fun - it drags, makes things go longer, and is simply frustrating (assuming it's non-interactive, which a planned stalemate usually will be.) I hope Scorpion has a good dishonor deck, and what we've seen of the Crab has me thinking FFG can design fun dishonor decks. Just keep it from being sit back and twiddle cards and I'll be quite happy with it... Well, except when I lose to it, of course

39 minutes ago, wolfien8 said:

In Old5R it was fun to control their provinces with Scorpion. I remember forcing my friend to never be able to play personalities.

Wow! I hope they bring that forward into the LCG! Please, oh, please! Give us decks that force one player to just sit there, capable of doing absolutely nothing, while the other player just solitaires to a win!

/sarc

If this sort of thing happens in the LCG, I'll be in full support of throwing the Scorpion right out of Rokugan once again.

8 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Wow! I hope they bring that forward into the LCG! Please, oh, please! Give us decks that force one player to just sit there, capable of doing absolutely nothing, while the other player just solitaires to a win!

/sarc

If this sort of thing happens in the LCG, I'll be in full support of throwing the Scorpion right out of Rokugan once again.

I enjoyed it, but I would be willing to see it go for the sake of the LCG and because I think Scorpion has plenty of other options.

It's good to hear that dishonor is a credible threat. I wonder if it will feature in most games.

8 minutes ago, Mercuric said:

It's good to hear that dishonor is a credible threat. I wonder if it will feature in most games.

I think it depends on what you mean by "feature". Some people see wins by breaking provinces and say, "See? Honor and Dishonor aren't as important as military/political skill!" In doing so, some of them ignore the fact that merely getting close to an Honor/Dishonor victory or loss can cause people to play differently than they might otherwise.

3 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Wow! I hope they bring that forward into the LCG! Please, oh, please! Give us decks that force one player to just sit there, capable of doing absolutely nothing, while the other player just solitaires to a win!

/sarc

If this sort of thing happens in the LCG, I'll be in full support of throwing the Scorpion right out of Rokugan once again.

Yeah the solitaire honor and dishonor decks are great examples of NPE. Honor seems to be wound up in this game as a much better mechanic than the old game. You can see how any clan, even the Crab and Scorpion are going to need to respect honor, but also you see how they gain ways to play around it. There seems to be a solid pattern of honor loss coming from a choice which is great - it's kinda similar to duels. Having the card means nothing if you can't create the right board state to make it valuable. The Crab can use Levy to dishonor an opponent out if they can get them to 1-3 honor and catch them without fate on hand. Without creating that board state an opponent can freely give you honor or fate, which ever keeps them in the game longer.

The new card and game mechanics also mean a dishonor deck doesn't have to WIN by dishonor victory. If you can take a few honor from your opponent you can dump that right back on them for heavier card draw, or to win a duel, which can translate to a stronger game state to win naturally through provinces. I have a feeling the core set won't give Scorpion any more options than the Crab to actually force more than a few points of dishonor. I think they'll more likely have ways to dishonor personalities to take advantage of their glory stat mostly to gain a MIL / POL advantage and keep them dishonored with abilities like Young Rumormonger. A dishonored champion is horribly inefficient and that leverage can give the Scorpion a good advantage. What they will do against other Scorpion and Crab players who don't care about glory so much? We'll see...

Would there be any drawback to consistently bidding low unless your hand is absolute trash? Like, say I bid 2 each turn (let's ignore duels for simplicity's sake). If they bid 1 each turn, I'm only losing a single point of honor each turn in exchange for drawing 1 more card than them, and the game simply doesn't appear to last enough turns for that to destroy me. If they bid any higher, I'm either gaining or at least not losing anything. It's when they start bidding 4 or 5 that I start to fall back in card advantage, but I can leverage what I'm gaining in honor on the following turn and bid higher so as not to fall too far behind (assuming my goal isn't to win through honor or dishonor).

11 minutes ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

Would there be any drawback to consistently bidding low unless your hand is absolute trash? Like, say I bid 2 each turn (let's ignore duels for simplicity's sake). If they bid 1 each turn, I'm only losing a single point of honor each turn in exchange for drawing 1 more card than them, and the game simply doesn't appear to last enough turns for that to destroy me. If they bid any higher, I'm either gaining or at least not losing anything. It's when they start bidding 4 or 5 that I start to fall back in card advantage, but I can leverage what I'm gaining in honor on the following turn and bid higher so as not to fall too far behind (assuming my goal isn't to win through honor or dishonor).

afaik - you gain 1 honor if an honored personality leaves play, and you lose 1 honor if a dishonored personality leaves play. You lose 1 honor if a conflict resolves and you have no defenders, but I don't think you lose if an attack resolves without attackers. You lose 5 honor if you deck out of either deck and need to draw from it, with this you reshuffle the deck back. Then there is the honor exchange that occurs with bidding for draw and duels.

Are there any other innate honor / dishonor / trade effects that happen in the game rules?

From there, in game we have the ability to dishonor in Crab from Watch Commander, Intimidating bushi, and levy. What other dishonor cards are there? I haven't gone through all of the cards enough to exactly recall.

When considering how much you can bid it's important to consider these other factors. Right now I think a bid of 2-3 is probably safe, and you can adapt to your opponent.

2 hours ago, shosuko said:

Are there any other innate honor / dishonor / trade effects that happen in the game rules?

Not really rules, but the Air ring effect can have your opponent take 1 honor from ya.