Moving this conversation to the appropriate subforum, so the other thread can stay on topic...

Premise: Jake Farrell ("After you perform a focus action or are assigned a focus token, you may perform a free boost or barrel roll action.") can use Intensity ("After you perform a boost or barrel roll action, you may assign 1 focus or evade token to your ship. If you do, flip this card.") for both Focus and Evade in the same turn without ending up Exhausted. Here's how:

Since "If you do..." is a separate sentence, it can be interrupted by Jake's "After you perform..." leading to this sequence:

1. Jake moves
2. Jake Boosts
3. Intensity drops free Focus [delayed flip 1]
4. Jake interrupts with free Barrel Roll
5. Intensity drops free Evade [flip 2]
6. Resolve 2 flips, 1 to Exhausted, 1 back to Intensity

The challenge to this combo was thus:

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

Please point out where it say that interruptions happen at sentence breaks

The only precedent is that 'Do something. Then do something else.' is different from 'After doing something, do something else'.

As ever, it could have been written more clearly (specifically, 'If you do, flip this card *to its Exhausted side*.'), but it's entirely obvious how it's supposed to work.

The precedent for a period (.) creating opportunity for interruption is the ruling that Kanan Jarrus ("Once per round, after a friendly ship at Range 1-2 executes a white maneuver, you may remove 1 stress token from that ship.") does not help a ship wind up stress-less after using Inertial Dampeners ("When you reveal your maneuver, you may discard this card to instead perform a white (0 stop) maneuver. Then receive 1 stress token.") because he triggers after performing the white maneuver, but before the final sentence.

The above quote seems to imply there should be a difference between "Then do something" and "If you do something, do something else", however there is no precedent for that being the case. In fact, even worse, poor Lt. Lorrir ("When performing a barrel roll action, you may receive 1 stress token to use the (left 1 bank) or (right 1 bank) template instead of the (straight 1) template.") can't even do his funky shenanigans stress-free with Captain Yorr's help ("When another friendly ship at Range 1-2 would receive a stress token, if you have 2 or fewer stress tokens, you may receive that token instead."). If he had a period, though ("When performing a barrel roll action, you may use the (left 1 bank) or (right 1 bank) template instead of the (straight 1) template. If you do, receive 1 stress token.") this combo would work (not due to interruption specifically, but still a timing issue).

Finally, the argument "X is entirely obvious" does no hold water for what should be, well, entirely obvious reasons. Rules As Intended cannot trump Rules As Written without an FAQ. What the card says (do what the card says, not what it doesn't say) is "flip this card", so whether it's Intensity or Exhausted, it's still the same card. If FFG would like to rule that "this card" specifically refers to "the card with this name", that's fine, but it will likewise require an FAQ. The end result of that would still be Boost + Focus + Barrel Roll + Evade, just with an Exhausted Jake instead of an Intense one (the second "flip" trigger would try to resolve, but be unable to find "Intensity" and so do nothing with "Exhausted").

(I'm not trying to call out thespaceinvader here, just responding to his comments as I said in a more appropriate place. Plus he always provides excellent arguments here in the rules subforum, so I appreciate his thoughts on this.)

You're forcing an interpretation that isn't supported by actual rules text.

Looking at example cards that may have similar structure, but are, in fact, different, does not mean the interactions are the same.

Intensity requires you to flip the card if you voluntarily take the token. There are no rules supporting Jake's ability triggering before the card is flipped.

The ruling with Kanan is different because Inertial Dampeners separates the stress and the maneuver. You're getting the stress from ID specifically, because the card tells you to.

This is not a window for shenanigans, it is simply a separation of what gives you the stress, and it happens to be something Kanan doesn't trigger on.

EDIT: Also, the issue with double flipping the card would have other implications. Is Intensity and Intensity (Exhausted) "this card"? Can you flip Intensity (Exhausted) without meeting its requirements (the card doesn't seem to actually stop this, so this is more of a RAW vs RAI question, and still valid to have FFG weigh in on). Etc... That's an odd thought in general.

I original posted this response in the thread that started the discussion:

Let's assume you can interrupt Intensity. It's not a stretch, as there are precedents for interrupting other card abilities. Your idea for Jake still ignores the Exhausted side of the card. Your attempt really looks like this:

1. Jake Boost Action

2. Trigger Intensity to assign Focus token.

3. Jake trigger pilot ability for Barrel Roll Action (interrupting Intensity.)

4. Trigger Intensity. Strictly based on the wording of the card, Jakes free Barrel Roll action is a valid trigger for Intensity, but don't get too excited yet.

5. At this point you are waiting to resolve two instances of, "If you do, flip this card." You flip it one time; now the dual card's Exhausted side is face up. The Exhausted side has a distinct card ability, and can only be flipped during the End Phase by spending a focus or evade token. You created a paradox in which two sides of the card have active conditions that must be met. The side of the card you interrupted says you have to flip this card, but you can't flip the Exhausted side without meeting the condition of the Exhausted side. If you can't completely resolve all of a card ability, then you aren't allowed to trigger that card ability.

In that other thread, @ObiWonka argued that Intensity's Exhausted side doesn't say you can't flip it over for other reasons. That is of course followed by the argument that you can only do what the card says you can do. The absence of a prohibition is not inherently permissive. Exhausted describes one opportunity to flip the card back to the other side. Anything it doesn't say is irrelevant.

1 hour ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

This is not a window for shenanigans, it is simply a separation of what gives you the stress, and it happens to be something Kanan doesn't trigger on.

That doesn't explain why Kanan doesn't wait until after the full resolution of the card before his own trigger resolves. And if he doesn't have to wait, neither does Jake.

1 hour ago, jmswood said:

that other thread, @ObiWonka argued that Intensity's Exhausted side doesn't say you can't flip it over for other reasons. That is of course followed by the argument that you can only do what the card says you can do. The absence of a prohibition is not inherently permissive. Exhausted describes one opportunity to flip the card back to the other side. Anything it doesn't say is irrelevant.

My response in the other thread was a quick one, so more specifically, I have something that is telling me to flip a card, nothing is telling me that thing cannot flip that card, therefore I can flip that card. That is how the rules to X-Wing (and most games) work. Exhausted says I can flip it by spending a token, it does not say I can only flip it by spending a token.

22 minutes ago, ObiWonka said:

That doesn't explain why Kanan doesn't wait until after the full resolution of the card before his own trigger resolves. And if he doesn't have to wait, neither does Jake.

It's not about waiting. There isn't a window created at all. ID isn't saying the maneuver is giving you the stress. It is says you complete the maneuver. It's done. And ID says you have to have a stress now that that's all over, because you used the card.

It is not a window, it is simply something that does not trigger Kanan. He never has a reason to pop in at all.

Other cards that don't have the (apparently rudely interrupting) period are saying it is the maneuver giving you the stress. Because of that, Kanan is all over that ish.

The window is something you've personally created, in an attempt to find a loophole. No loophole exists. Kanan isn't being thrown out a window, the card is simply describing a scenario he doesn't qualify to trigger on.

Nothing in the rules supports Jake interrupting anything. I know you've seen this before, but read what's on the card. Not what isn't.

----

Now, back to your first post, I believe you are tripping over things "making sense" in terms of how Kanan functions. It doesn't matter if the Kanan interaction makes sense, thematically or otherwise. Apparently it's not the 0 maneuver of ID that is stressful for the pilot, it's the... device use? I guess? Maybe the button is in a hard-to-reach spot or something, kind of like when you drop your cellphone under your break pedal in a car. None of this matters, of course, so we can just continue reading what's actually on the card (or the rules), and not worry about the other stuff.

5 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

It's not about waiting. There isn't a window created at all. ID isn't saying the maneuver is giving you the stress. It is says you complete the maneuver. It's done. And ID says you have to have a stress now that that's all over.

It is not a window, it is simply something that does not trigger Kanan. He never has a reason to pop in at all.

Other cards that don't have the (apparently rudely interrupting) period are saying it is the maneuver giving you the stress. Because of that, Kanan is all over that ish.

The window is something you've personally created, in an attempt to find a loophole. No loophole exists. Kanan isn't being thrown out a window, the card is simply describing a scenario he doesn't qualify to trigger on.

Nothing in the rules supports Jake interrupting anything. I know you've seen this before, but read what's on the card. Not what isn't.

----

Now, back to your first post, I believe you are tripping over things "making sense" in terms of how Kanan functions. It doesn't matter if the Kanan interaction makes sense, thematically or otherwise. Apparently it's not the 0 maneuver of ID that is stressful for the pilot, it's the... device use? I guess? Maybe the button is in a hard-to-reach spot or something, kind of like when you drop your cellphone under your break pedal in a car. None of this matters, of course, so we can just continue reading what's actually on the card (or the rules), and not worry about the other stuff.

Are you sure you understand how Kanan and ID interact? ID has you perform a white maneuver, which triggers Kanan. ID also gives you a stress. Kanan removes a stress after performing a white maneuver. However, we have per the FAQ that Kanan happens before you are given the stress. Kanan doesn't care where the stress comes from, he just lets you remove 1 from the ship after a white maneuver.

34 minutes ago, ObiWonka said:

Are you sure you understand how Kanan and ID interact? ID has you perform a white maneuver, which triggers Kanan. ID also gives you a stress. Kanan removes a stress after performing a white maneuver. However, we have per the FAQ that Kanan happens before you are given the stress. Kanan doesn't care where the stress comes from, he just lets you remove 1 from the ship after a white maneuver.

... You're 100% right, I should have pulled up Kanan (and the FAQ) instead of working from memory, that's always a lousy thing for me to do, I apologize.

Your issue is that Kanan does proc after the white maneuver, and the clarification says this interrupts the rest of the card, that's where you're getting your window. I see that, now that I'm being slightly less thick-headed.

The FAQ says Kanan triggers in the Clean Up step of the Execute Maneuver Phase, which is when you're removing your maneuver template, and is before ID's stress shows up.

We have nothing that tells us Jake happens during any step that occurs before Intensity flips. There is no gameplay window that exists between Intensity giving you a token and flipping. FFG would need to create one and then identify it for Jake's ability specifically for things to nest as you say.

overall all of this arguments the simply fact remains that FFG will NEED to FAQ this as to provide clarity of this issue.

This is why I included card text in the OP as another forum member recently suggested!

Otherwise fair enough (and in fact I probably should've gone digging a little deeper into the FAQ and quoted that directly, too).

What zhentil said, while I was replying.

10 minutes ago, zhentil said:

overall all of this arguments the simply fact remains that FFG will NEED to FAQ this as to provide clarity of this issue.

7 minutes ago, ObiWonka said:

This is why I included card text in the OP as another forum member recently suggested!

Otherwise fair enough (and in fact I probably should've gone digging a little deeper into the FAQ and quoted that directly, too).

What zhentil said, while I was replying.

The problem with that is that folks still need to accept A ruling before then. This is true for all of these awful topics "awaiting FAQ."

This goes outside of the point of the rules forum, or what it has become, anyway.

I don't disagree on your principle, though. In fact, it's the only correct answer for a lot of things. But we could also close down this entire sub-forum if that's the answer we rested on, these days.

This doesn't have the same tier of questioning -- Kanan is clearly given a defined phase & step that he operates in, further clarified by FFG in terms of ID. The proposed Jake interaction does not have a legal phase & step defined that is known to occur during the text on Intensity.

While FFG could certainly clarify differently in the future, this has a functional answer without further clarification.

Wow, this thread is a perfect example why nested actions is a TERRIBLE game mechanic.

Strictly RAW for Jake your guaranteed 4 actions for 1 with no stress involved regardless of which side of the argument you are on, and its 50/50 coin flip whether you get to have the intensity flip once or twice, you certainly get 2 flip triggers but the only question is does the second flip trigger work when intensity is on the exhausted side.

Yeah, we've never had an ability leave play before it finished resolving before.

And let's be honest, the ruling is borked either way:

A: you get a second bite of intensity for free.

B: You get a second bite of intensity and it flips itself face up again.

'A' is better, but still a little dumb.

There are a few ways Intensity and Jake can interact that can result in a multitude of tokens and re-position actions. However, I'm pretty sure none of them involve triggering or flipping Intensity more than once. I will explain.

The whole question of whether a trigger can interrupt something mid process and then returning to it is well established. The simplest way to show this is the interaction of Push the Limit and Experimental Interface. You can use both and then receive 2 stress (FAQ Page 17). The FAQ just says a ship can use both and then recieve 2 stress after the actions are done without explaining details. However, the only way that works is if the order is: Action, Trigger PTL for action, Interrupt PTL triggering EI for another action, Receive stress from EI, EI is complete so return to PTL which now gives an additional stress.

However, there is an important phrasing detail on these: the word THEN. As in they all say "Do X. Then do Y." The word "then" is the key thing that indicates it is broken into two separate segments in much the same way that "may" in X-Wing always indicates an action is optional as opposed to simply indicating it is permitted as might be inferred from common usage.

Since Intensity simply says flip the card "If you do" then there is not a window to interrupt it's resolution with another ability. So it would look like this:

1. Jake Focus

2. Jake Ability for Boost or Barrel Roll

3. Intensity Drops a Focus and flips

4. Jake Ability again for a Boost or Barrel Roll (whichever he didn't do before)

Or you could take an Evade at 3 and skip 4. Still looking at effectively 3 or 4 actions with no stress which is pretty good but you don't get to break the game and do it every round for free. On the other hand if you're taking a boost and barrel roll plus 2 focuses then there's a decent chance you can avoid a lot of fire and then have an extra token to spend and flip it up again with the printed method.

An official ruling would still be nice though.

I can absolutely see the argument for "if you do" being different than "then", however there are no clear rules (yet) one way or the other. FAQ to the rescue.

I would honestly be 100% ok with Intensity not being able to flip Exhausted back over but Jake still being able to Boost -> Focus -> Barrel Roll -> Evade. 1) It has to be in that order. 2) He would still have to spend a token at some point. And 3) He's in an A-Wing.

3 minutes ago, ObiWonka said:

I can absolutely see the argument for "if you do" being different than "then", however there are no clear rules (yet) one way or the other. FAQ to the rescue.

I would honestly be 100% ok with Intensity not being able to flip Exhausted back over but Jake still being able to Boost -> Focus -> Barrel Roll -> Evade. 1) It has to be in that order. 2) He would still have to spend a token at some point. And 3) He's in an A-Wing.

Actually, if we're letting him trigger intensity twice he can Focus Action, Boost or Barrel Roll, Intensity Focus, Boost or Barrel Roll, Intensity Evade. Intensity says assign a token not perform an action, so you can double up as much as you like.

I don't think you can trigger intensity multiple times based on my previous post, but if you could that's how it would work.

6 minutes ago, ObiWonka said:

I would honestly be 100% ok with Intensity not being able to flip Exhausted back over but Jake still being able to Boost -> Focus -> Barrel Roll -> Evade. 1) It has to be in that order. 2) He would still have to spend a token at some point. And 3) He's in an A-Wing.

If the above action chain works then why not focus-> boost-> focus-> barrel roll-> evade? In your example both tokens are coming from intensity and since intensity says "assign x token" not "perform x action" my chain is better and still legal... Making the assumption that intensity can be interrupted and therefore trigger twice.

You're correct. Still OK with it.

I still dont know why you dont flip intensity over after the first time its used.... The assining of the token flips the card and once its assigned it triggers jakes ability.

4 minutes ago, Icelom said:

I still dont know why you dont flip intensity over after the first time its used.... The assining of the token flips the card and once its assigned it triggers jakes ability.

No, it doesn't flip it right away. The ability is interrupted by Jake. These sort of interruptions are common: Inertial Dampeners vs Kanan Jarrus, Push the Limit vs Expert Handling, and so forth.

10 minutes ago, InquisitorM said:

No, it doesn't flip it right away. The ability is interrupted by Jake. These sort of interruptions are common: Inertial Dampeners vs Kanan Jarrus, Push the Limit vs Expert Handling, and so forth.

But those interactions are "do this, then do this" where intensity is not a then statement it says "if you do fip this card" there is no opening assigning the token flips the card, its not "assign a focus token, then flip this card" There is no opening... Either the token is not there yet, in that case jake does not trigger or it is and in that case the card is flipped.... where is this opening to wait around to flip it comeing from?

Jake explicitly says after you assing a token, and intensity has part of assinging the token is flipping the card....

9 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Jake explicitly says after you assing a token, and intensity has part of assinging the token is flipping the card....

No. Flipping the card is not part of assigning the token. That's literally not what is written on the card.

Things happen in the order presented. Jake kicks in when the focus is assigned, at which point Intensity ceases resolving until the interrupt is complete. You never finish the text before triggering the response like that.

1 hour ago, InquisitorM said:

No. Flipping the card is not part of assigning the token. That's literally not what is written on the card.

Things happen in the order presented. Jake kicks in when the focus is assigned, at which point Intensity ceases resolving until the interrupt is complete. You never finish the text before triggering the response like that.

Jake "After you perform a focus or are assigned a focus token, you may perform a free boost or barrel roll action"

Intensity "After you perform a boost or barrel roll action, you may assign 1 focus or evade token to your ship. If you do, flip this card"

Intensity says if you do it flip the card, not after you do it.

If I said "you may go to the park. If you do, take your brother" would you go to the park come back and then go again taking your brother?

The wording of intensity means you flip the card when you assign the token not after. Jake happens after you assign the token.

Things like PTL and Experimental interface both state after or "then" intensity makes no such distinction, flipping the card happens when the token is assigned then we move to the after part where jake's ability works.

I have no idea where you are getting the idea that the card gets flipped after the token is assigned, nowhere in its wording does it imply that.

3 hours ago, Icelom said:

Jake "After you perform a focus or are assigned a focus token, you may perform a free boost or barrel roll action"

Intensity "After you perform a boost or barrel roll action, you may assign 1 focus or evade token to your ship. If you do, flip this card"

Intensity says if you do it flip the card, not after you do it.

If I said "you may go to the park. If you do, take your brother" would you go to the park come back and then go again taking your brother?

The wording of intensity means you flip the card when you assign the token not after. Jake happens after you assign the token.

Things like PTL and Experimental interface both state after or "then" intensity makes no such distinction, flipping the card happens when the token is assigned then we move to the after part where jake's ability works.

I have no idea where you are getting the idea that the card gets flipped after the token is assigned, nowhere in its wording does it imply that.

Have you seen how PtL nesting works? Especially when it interacts with Experimental Interface? I think that's probably the best way to imagine how this is being setup.

EDIT: Based on that, I think the only other concern is how flipping cards really works, and also if "Intensity" and "Intensity [Exhausted]" both qualify for "this card" that Intensity refers to.

PtL nesting paints a pretty clear example of how this is being described. I got too much into the Kanan example, which I think is a rubbish one (no offense).

59 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

Have you seen how PtL nesting works? Especially when it interacts with Experimental Interface? I think that's probably the best way to imagine how this is being setup.

EDIT: Based on that, I think the only concern is how flipping cards really works, and also if "Intensity" and "Intensity [Exhausted]" both qualify for "this card" that Intensity refers to.

PtL nesting paints a pretty clear example of how this is being described. I got too much into the Kanan example, which I think is a rubbish one (no offense).

I understand PTL and experimental interface, and why they work.

What I am stating is Intensity does not have the "then receive 1 stress token" equivalent. That's precisely why you cant use it multiple times with jake because it's not worded like PTL or Experimental interface.

Intensity "After you perform a boost or barrel roll action, you may assign 1 focus or evade token to your ship. If you do, flip this card"

Push the limit "Once per round, after you perform an action, you may perform 1 free action shown in your action bar. Then receive 1 stress token."

Intensity does not tell you to wait until after the focus token is assign like PTL and experimental interface do it simply says if you assign the token flip the card. I would 100% agree with you if it was worded the same as PTL and Experimental interface is, but it's not.

You guys are pulling in a precedent from cards that explicitly word the negative aspect to happen after you do the first aspect. Intensity has no such wording.

It's not after, it's literally "if you do flip this card" there is no "after" or "then" timing window you flip the card if you assign the focus not after you assign the focus.

What I am essentially arguing is the "if you do, flip this card" is part of a assigning the focus token, not after assigning the focus token because it never states it happens after.