11 hours ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

Footnotes added to quote text above.

1. Where in the rules does it say you can't choose zero?

2. How, exactly? Please feel free to share reference images or copied text, if that saves time.

3. What?

4. Yes, you rerolled zero dice. If they required you to roll a number higher than zero, they would have used the wording on C-3PO. Otherwise, zero is a legal target, and the game logic does not care about the physical logic you're suggesting.

EDIT: From the FAQ, under Spending Tokens - "When attacking, players may spend target locks and choose to reroll 0 attack dice."

Keyword there is that you are allowed to reroll zero dice. Therefore, X-Wing considers you to have rerolled dice, so game effects looking for rerolling trigger.

1.- You cannot choose anything, that's my point. The wording of the regular focus effect insttructs you to change ALL your results. That's why bringing the "you can change 0 eyeball results" up is pointless. That, and the fact that I never said you can't use the TL and choose 0.

2.- The FaQ woudln't be inconsistent. You are just missing my point and you say they would be. Yes, you can change 0 eyeball results all your eyeballs, even if they are 0 with a focus token, and it's still a modification, so Omega Leader prevents that. Yes, you can spend a Target Lock and choose 0. I'm not denying that, and they are not in conflict with my point (thus, it has no sense to use them to deny my point).

3.- Let's put it another way: you resolve an effect A that allows you to do B. You then can trigger anything that need A to resolve, even if you don't do B. But it doesn't mean effects that need B as a trigger resolve just because you resolved A.
Just take a look at TFA Blinded Pilot. When you have the opportunity to attack, you flip the card, but you haven't actually attacked, so effects that trigger after an attack can't be resolved.
This is the same. You spend the Target Lock. You have the chance to reroll, but you choose not to (by not choosing any die), so effects that trigger after a reroll can't be resolved.

4.- Rerolling 0 dice is not rerolling dice. I know it seems to be, because of the wording, but to reroll dice, you have to actually, physically pick at least one die and (re)roll it.

About the FaQ quote of spending tokens. Would you say the same if it was worded "When attacking, players may spend target locks and choose to reroll no attack dice."? Because it also has the word reroll in it? I really think a little language comprehension (and a little will) is needed here.

4 hours ago, Willy Jarque said:

About the FaQ quote of spending tokens. Would you say the same if it was worded "When attacking, players may spend target locks and choose to reroll no attack dice."? Because it also has the word reroll in it? I really think a little language comprehension (and a little will) is needed here.

No one is denying that tokens can be spent in multiple ways. You can spend focus tokens for multiple reasons too. But in this case you ARE spending the target lock for a reroll. So yes, you are rerolling. That is what what you paid for, that is what you get. How you use it is is up to you, and in this case you are paying the cost to reroll 0.

So look at it this way. Let's say I am flying Redline and using some ability that triggers when you spend a target lock. If I spend a lock and reroll 0 dice, to trigger the ability... can I then spend the other one and reroll all my dice to trigger that ability again? No, because you can't perform the same action during the same attack and I did use my reroll opportunity. If we went by your logic, I spent it for a reroll, but didn't roll anything so I didn't reroll so I could spend the other TL to reroll again. That first expenditure of the first target lock used up my reroll. Rolling 0 dice is rolling some number. Sunny's ability does not require at least 1 die to be rolled, it does not require a physical die to move on the table.

ETA: If this post seems out of step with the posts that came immediately before it, that's because I replied to the thread without realizing I wasn't at the end of it. I'm not taking about rerolling zero dice to trigger Sunny after spending a Focus, I'm talking about rolling zero dice to start with (old school Blinded Pilot, for instance).

I think Sunny doesn't work after rolling zero dice because the dice aren't all showing the same face.

In many database systems there is a NULL value that is distinct from 0 or "" because, among other things, it does not equal itself. It's not saying "this field in this row is empty", it's saying "it does not make sense to even ask the value of this field for this row." Zero dice are not all showing blank faces. They're showing NULL faces. They don't trigger Sunny not because rolling zero dice isn't rolling dice (it totally is), but because it doesn't make sense to ask what result they're showing.

3 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

I think Sunny doesn't work after rolling zero dice because the dice aren't all showing the same face.

In many database systems there is a NULL value that is distinct from 0 or "" because, among other things, it does not equal itself. It's not saying "this field in this row is empty", it's saying "it does not make sense to even ask the value of this field for this row." Zero dice are not all showing blank faces. They're showing NULL faces. They don't trigger Sunny not because rolling zero dice isn't rolling dice (it totally is), but because it doesn't make sense to ask what result they're showing.

But the dice are showing a face (Keeping in mind this assumes a scenario where you rolled a hit and an eye, then used you focus to change the eye to a hit then spent a target lock to reroll) , they are showing the same face they had before you took the reroll. Sunny's ability does not ask you to check the face of the dice you just rolled. It tells you to check the face of the dice, after you have rolled. In programming terms the dice each represent a variable, containing the values of either (and exclusively) 'Hit', 'Crit', 'blank', 'eye' or 'evade' After performing a roll, or reroll you compare the values of those variables, if they are all equal then the ability triggers to generate an additional variable with a value equal to the others. The question is only did the function of a roll or reroll take place, and if so we go to the compare the variables step.

Were we only comparing the value of the rolled dice Sunny's ability would be very easy indeed to trigger, just roll 1 die on your re-roll it will always be equal to itself and therefore spawn an additional.

4 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

But the dice are showing a face (Keeping in mind this assumes a scenario where you rolled a hit and an eye, then used you focus to change the eye to a hit then spent a target lock to reroll) , they are showing the same face they had before you took the reroll. Sunny's ability does not ask you to check the face of the dice you just rolled. It tells you to check the face of the dice, after you have rolled. In programming terms the dice each represent a variable, containing the values of either (and exclusively) 'Hit', 'Crit', 'blank', 'eye' or 'evade' After performing a roll, or reroll you compare the values of those variables, if they are all equal then the ability triggers to generate an additional variable with a value equal to the others. The question is only did the function of a roll or reroll take place, and if so we go to the compare the variables step.

Were we only comparing the value of the rolled dice Sunny's ability would be very easy indeed to trigger, just roll 1 die on your re-roll it will always be equal to itself and therefore spawn an additional.

Note that the 7th word is 'rolling' not 'rerolling'.

There are two different discussions going on here:

1: If Sunny has focus/tl and rolls hit hit eye, can she spend the focus, then spend the TL to reroll 0 dice, and add a hit?

2: if Sunny has no dice at all (e.g. 2x Weapons Failure, Weapons Failure/Kanan pilot, old Blinded Pilot etc), can she roll 0 dice, and then add a result because all 0 of the dice match?

You're answering the latter with an argument about the former.

6 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

But the dice are showing a face (Keeping in mind this assumes a scenario where you rolled a hit and an eye, then used you focus to change the eye to a hit then spent a target lock to reroll) ,

My post was out of sync with the thread. I wasn't talking about rerolling zero dice, I was talking about rolling zero dice to start with.

Just now, digitalbusker said:

My post was out of sync with the thread. I wasn't talking about rerolling zero dice, I was talking about rolling zero dice to start with.

I see, yes, then I agree completely.

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Note that the 7th word is 'rolling' not 'rerolling'.

There are two different discussions going on here:

1: If Sunny has focus/tl and rolls hit hit eye, can she spend the focus, then spend the TL to reroll 0 dice, and add a hit?

2: if Sunny has no dice at all (e.g. 2x Weapons Failure, Weapons Failure/Kanan pilot, old Blinded Pilot etc), can she roll 0 dice, and then add a result because all 0 of the dice match?

You're answering the latter with an argument about the former.

yeah, I see that now. Sorry I got a little ahead of the discussion I guess. thanks.

If she "added a hit if all results matched" I think there might be an argument with a zero-roll, but since you're trying to add a matching non-existant result...yeah.

Either you get nothing or you get an "Error 404" game state, which is where FAQs generally come down on "this is not allowed to happen"

6 hours ago, Willy Jarque said:

4.- Rerolling 0 dice is not rerolling dice. I know it seems to be, because of the wording , but to reroll dice, you have to actually, physically pick at least one die and (re)roll it.

For number four, going to need to see where it says that in the rules reference or FAQ.

I've added emphasis to your line where I think you're struggling. This is a game, with a defined rule set that does not care about external logic. "The wording" is what we have to go by, and anything else is... well, not applicable.

"When attacking, players may spend target locks to reroll 0 attack dice." If it wasn't considered rerolling, FFG would need to have phrased it differently. Instead, it clearly says you can reroll zero. Regardless of how you interpret that... You can reroll zero. Spend a target lock, reroll zero, you've rerolled. Zero. But the rerolling trigger has come up all the same, because rerolling zero is a legal target based on the text in the rules.

They could have said players may spend target locks to not roll/reroll any dice, then they'd achieve what you're suggesting.

They did not. This is a bad way to support an argument about FFG rules writing, but, unless noted otherwise, RAW is very strict about word choice.

And FFG says you can reroll zero dice.

Sunny needs you to reroll dice. Nowhere does he specify an amount (again, like C-3PO). The rules reference does. And it says zero is kosher.

... If you choose to debate further, please cite rules reference lines, the FAQ, or card text that support your points. I've given you rules reference text to explain, and C-3PO to show a counter example. You've given me your opinions... Which, while logically sound, don't impact how X-Wing is played.

On an additional note, I have chosen to take offense at your insinuation that my language comprehension is sub-par. This is not important to the discussion at hand, but it will likely persist until the end of time. My coffee was particularly bitter this morning, and so shall I be.

21 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

Hell, TECHNICALLY Sunny's ability procs when he rolls 0 dice (not sure how that'd happen and still be alive). Course it doesnt do anything cause 0 + 0 = 0.

Captain Rex's Suppressive Fire condition + Weapons Failure critical damage card. It came up in a store champ I played last week. The victim wasn't Sunny, but Scum Nym. He fired an autoblaster with zero dice, then used Accuracy Correct to cancel the (null) results and add two hits.

On 7/20/2017 at 0:27 PM, Incard said:

Captain Rex's Suppressive Fire condition + Weapons Failure critical damage card. It came up in a store champ I played last week. The victim wasn't Sunny, but Scum Nym. He fired an autoblaster with zero dice, then used Accuracy Correct to cancel the (null) results and add two hits.

That's just Mean! lol. But so awesome.

one could also argue that it does not say .... immediately after you roll or reroll dice. It just says, after. so after when, you roll modify then add? if it said immediately then it would be clearer. cryptazoic had this issue with a promo character card, black lightning. claiming zero kinda breaks the game a bit, or it did in that case. I would be a fan of not claiming zero. just cause it causes to many issues

"Immediately" doesn't mean nothing in this game.
"After X" is a trigger condition, and must be done right after X is resolved.

13 hours ago, Willy Jarque said:

"Immediately" doesn't mean nothing in this game.
"After X" is a trigger condition, and must be done right after X is resolved.

"Immediately" means you should do this first, but then other things can immediately trigger before the "immediately" that you're trying to resolve.

Unfortunately, someone at FFG clarified that "immediately" doesn't hold much weight when trying to establish timings. It should be read as " do X as soon as you can, but other things can interrupt you ".

Just now, Parravon said:

"Immediately" means you should do this first, but then other things can immediately trigger before the "immediately" that you're trying to resolve.

Unfortunately, someone at FFG clarified that "immediately" doesn't hold much weight when trying to establish timings. It should be read as " do X as soon as you can, but other things can interrupt you ".

The FAQ literally says 'immediately has not meaning in x wing'.

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

The FAQ literally says 'immediately has not meaning in x wing'.

"i mmediately "

Immediately is used as emphasis on some cards, it is purely reminder text and has no distinct game effect.

Hence the second line of my post.

It holds no weight *at all*.

It literally means nothing and could be deleted from all cards on which it appears with no effect on the rules of those cards.

Q: So Sunny's ability triggers if all dice match. In the scenario under discussion, you have two hits, then reroll 0 dice, right?

What's the facing on the 0 dice rerolled? Do they match the two hits? If they don't exist because they are null, null doesn't equal hit, right?

(Really, FFG should never had a rule that allowed zero of anything. That goes for C3PO, too.)

0 doesn't work for 3PO anyway, he specifies one or more.

Sunn should have done the same.

But after rerolling 0, all your dice match, so you can add 1 matching one, by RAW.

On 7/19/2017 at 3:02 PM, InquisitorM said:

It can, but that's a colloquialism, not the root meaning. A moot is an or organised discussion, and a moot point is one that needs to be raised at a moot because it is unclear or contested.

Not to be confused with mute point, which is people being unable to use words properly.

Also not to be confused with a 'moo point'. It's like a cow's opinion, it just matter.

As for the discussion at hand, I'm firmly on the "it doesn't trigger unless you (re)rolled at least 1 die", because otherwise you didn't reroll any dice. Unless/until ffg gives us a firm answer the other way.