51 minutes ago, Chibi-Nya said:

Can't wait for Squad upgrades to be invented!

Yep!

1 hour ago, Joe Censored said:

The X Wings suck issue comes down to some people want to play Star Wars Fantasy Miniatures instead of FFG Space Ships, and would like to see heroes from the movies actually perform like the movies. As pointed out most ships have only a single exceptional pilot that gets play, with some better ships having 2 or so (Quickdraw/Backdraft, etc). I think that is fine for game balance, but isn't great for keeping people excited about playing a Star Wars game.

There's always going to be a best pilot for each chassis; that's pretty unavoidable. 100 point lists don't give much opportunity for 2nd best pilots. It is usually best to just pick the best pilot flying another ship than the 2nd best pilot flying the same ship. 150+ points changes that.

I think it has been a mistake for FFG to stick to 100 point lists, which made sense early in the game since ships had both fewer upgrade slots and the upgrades were not always as good as just putting more bodies down. Now with upgrade slot bloat and more powerful upgrades available, we're down to 2-3 ships as the norm. 100 points is just too limiting now.

Exactly. And my point is not that 100 points should be changed, but the One-Ace-Wonder effect will be a direct sequel of that format that you can't then complain about.

1 hour ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

I really don't think the format is the issue - doesn't raising the point limit just extrapolate existing problems? Let me explain with an example:

Sorry, but any balance issue that uses the Only Chassis Most Needing a Ban as an example doesn't hold much water for me.

Not saying your example is wrong, but that the JM5K is a problem that ruins the game in every way possible.

5 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Sorry, but any balance issue that uses the Only Chassis Most Needing a Ban as an example doesn't hold much water for me.

Not saying your example is wrong, but that the JM5K is a problem that ruins the game in every way possible.

See: Biggs in a larger swarm with bigger guns and more Auzi goodness.

Literally take all the complaints of today's and yesterday's meta: TLT, Atanni, regen, etc. and they only get stronger when you have more point to buff them or their wing-mates with. Does that make more sense?
Some things we used to b*tch about don't apply - Palp, x7s, um... Can't think of any more... but yeah, I think bombs, Biggs, and Scum get a huge boost from more points.

31 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

See: Biggs in a larger swarm with bigger guns and more Auzi goodness.

Literally take all the complaints of today's and yesterday's meta: TLT, Atanni, regen, etc. and they only get stronger when you have more point to buff them or their wing-mates with. Does that make more sense?
Some things we used to b*tch about don't apply - Palp, x7s, um... Can't think of any more... but yeah, I think bombs, Biggs, and Scum get a huge boost from more points.

I'm not sure that all the problems get bigger with more points. Epic play (which is what you begin to approach) is very different than 100-points, and certain strategies will not play out the same way. For one thing, you will get to the point where another ship is more valuable than stacking another upgrade on the ships you have. Maybe that is also an effect of a 6x3 field of battle. Certainly arc-dodging Imperials get a slap in the face. More guns = less places to hide.

36 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I'm not sure that all the problems get bigger with more points. Epic play (which is what you begin to approach) is very different than 100-points, and certain strategies will not play out the same way. For one thing, you will get to the point where another ship is more valuable than stacking another upgrade on the ships you have. Maybe that is also an effect of a 6x3 field of battle. Certainly arc-dodging Imperials get a slap in the face. More guns = less places to hide.

okay, well Epic ships. End of that tangent...

But to my earlier point: We agree - not all problems getting bigger with more points. But Biggs, bombs, aand most of Scum's (Atanni and cheap as **** chasis) problems do. Which are arguably the most commonly complained about issues with the game at the moment.

16 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

okay, well Epic ships. End of that tangent...

And FFG will never make "standard play" more than 100 points, so end of that tangent too

Guess that gets us back to One-Ace-Wonder lists (OAW XWM).

27 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

And FFG will never make "standard play" more than 100 points, so end of that tangent too

Guess that gets us back to One-Ace-Wonder lists (OAW XWM).

There's got to logic/legal jargon to describe what just happened...
Person A: Argument 1 (A1)
Person B: Refutes A1
Person C: Introduces Evidence X (EX) that supoorts A1
Person B: Refutes EX by bifurcating A1 from EX
Percon C: Refutes premise of A1 and the entire conversation

lol <3 you @Darth Meanie

I feel I should note a few ships that aren't so terribly limited:

A-wings had, post-refit, both Jake swooping about as well as Prototype Pilots and GSPs, once the 0 & 1pt upgrade options started to proliferate. Yeah, it had some duds, but three pilots - and two generic and one ace - isn't too bad at all.
TIE Fighters had Academy Pilots as viable from day 1; Black Squadrons took to the skies post Crackshot; Backstabber and Howlrunner were popular throughout, and Mauler Mithel, Scourge, and especially Wampa have seen play too. Really, their only crime has been falling behind in the power creep, but the ship itself saw decent variety.
Post-fix TIE Defenders saw their Deltas, Glaives, Ryad, and Vessery all as perfectly viable, and even the occasional Stele or Brath take the field. (They didn't do so well, sure, but you weren't laughed out of the room for flying them either.)
And HWKs have seen almost every iteration flown, especially on the Scum side.

Their hit rate isn't perfect (Seriously, some of their ace pilots have truly baffling special abilities, so it'll never be perfect), but getting variety out of a ship can be done.

35 minutes ago, Reiver said:

Their hit rate isn't perfect (Seriously, some of their ace pilots have truly baffling special abilities, so it'll never be perfect), but getting variety out of a ship can be done.

One other problem is the 4 pilot release SOP:

1 generic that won't see play

1 "elite" generic with or with out EPT that won't see play

1 mid-PS ace that might see play

1 high-PS ace that will see play.

In truth, as an Epic player, the pilot that does all my heavily lifting is the mid-PS generic that (hopefully) has an EPT.

10 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

...we would like X-Wings to be half-decent as X-Wing, not as HP bag for something else.

I agree with your intended sentiment here, so I have nothing productive to add to this conversation.

I just wanted to say that this sentence made me think of the fact that my mom used to work as an electrical engineer at Hewlett-Packard, and she let me keep the padded leather carrying case from her old logic analyzer. So my four glorious custom painted T-65s are sitting in a literal "HP bag" as I write this! And I'm also having a blast flying casual with all four as Rookie Pilots with Proton Torps and Guidance Chips.

The complaint comes from the actual game being called X-Wing. Its not called Bwing, or TIE Fighter, or Falcon. And the ship is plastered on the front box, and comes with an Xwing and two tie fighters:

So yeah, expectations for the ship are a little high. Not to mention LUKE FREAKIN SKYWALKER flies one.

2 hours ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

okay, well Epic ships. End of that tangent...

But to my earlier point: We agree - not all problems getting bigger with more points. But Biggs, bombs, aand most of Scum's (Atanni and cheap as **** chasis) problems do. Which are arguably the most commonly complained about issues with the game at the moment.

Biggs doesn't become a bigger problem with more points, in fact the opposite. He still dies when 6 hits get through, and the more points on the table the more red dice rolling against him during the first shooting round. Biggs would still be good, but not as game breaking as with 100 points (he's only really broken when he continues taking fire for several rounds, which is less likely the more points that are on the table).

I would like to petition for Porkins to get viable competitive table time.

1 hour ago, wurms said:

The complaint comes from the actual game being called X-Wing. Its not called Bwing, or TIE Fighter, or Falcon. And the ship is plastered on the front box, and comes with an Xwing and two tie fighters:

Wait -- the title on my core set box says "Jumpmaster 5K." Did I get the wrong game?

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

One other problem is the 4 pilot release SOP:

1 generic that won't see play

1 "elite" generic with or with out EPT that won't see play

1 mid-PS ace that might see play

1 high-PS ace that will see play.

In truth, as an Epic player, the pilot that does all my heavily lifting is the mid-PS generic that (hopefully) has an EPT.

I point to the A-wings for having both usable generics and a couple (previously) useful aces. HWKs also come with 4 pilots, and almost all of them have seen some play on occasion. You're right that almost all the one-pilot-wonders are ships that would suck but for That One Ace, though.

Much sucking in the galaxy there is!

1 hour ago, Reiver said:

I point to the A-wings for having both usable generics and a couple (previously) useful aces. HWKs also come with 4 pilots, and almost all of them have seen some play on occasion. You're right that almost all the one-pilot-wonders are ships that would suck but for That One Ace, though.

Ships that have seen a rerelease (aces, veterans or epic box) are usually in a better spot for pilot options.

7 hours ago, Wiredin said:

I would like to petition for Porkins to get viable competitive table time.

Petition DENIED!!!

Yeah with most ships it seems like there is one optimal pilot and the rest are not worth it. Also that pilot is usually the highest skilled unique or the lowest generic however there are exceptions as your example Biggs.

But a couple of things to consider is that most ships only have 4 pilots, 2 unique pilots and 2 generics with most of the higher skilled generic falling to the side because the +2 pilot skill is not worth the extra point or two spent on it. Some have more uniques and some start with several pilots and a few of them generic but for the most part you don't have that much variety of pilots when picking a ship out. It also depends on the meta, if Ace wing is in full effect then only the highest (7 with ept - 9) will be a competitive choice while the rest you want low for blocking.

So it all comes with the troubles of middling pilot skill giving you the worst of both worlds.

13 hours ago, Wiredin said:

I would like to petition for Porkins to get viable competitive table time.

5 hours ago, Nyxen said:

Petition DENIED!!!

Well, he's not particularly viable or competitive but I have been at least giving Porkins ('Poor-kins') some table time! Currently trying to decide if I want to take him to a 4th tournament or swap him and his B-list Buddies (Hobbie & Dutch) for the triple PS10 alpha list mentioned in the squad forum...