You know, for all the complaining I hear about the X-wing sucking 'except for Biggs', it got me thinking... of the small ships, how many chassis are actually any good with more than one pilot, ever?

TAPs suck except for the Inquisitor.
Interceptors (2 releases) suck except for Soontir Fel & Carnor Jax.
E-wings suck except for Corran Horn.
T-70s (3 releases) suck except for Poe and Jess Pava.
Y-wings suck except for PS2 generics.
TIE Advanceds (2 releases) suck except for Vader.
TIE Phantoms suck except for Whisper, and occasionally Echo.
Protectorates suck except for Fenn Rau, and occasionally Teroch (who mostly shows up because you wanted a second ship and you already had Fenn).
Scum Headhunters suck except for generics.
B-wings suck(ed) except for generics (though they're all a bit behind, these days).

This isn't to say that X-wings don't have a problem as they stand. Nor is it to say that the X-wing isn't iconic, and people have invested in the many colorful characters, so it'd be awful nice to see more of them get some table time... or that in three packs to date, the only pilot that gets table time is in the starter set. I'm not arguing any of that, today.

But we do seem to have given a pass to an awful lot of expansions in the past, just because they had one, maybe two, pilots that were able to show up on winning tables. This passes without nearly as much comment.

(And, okay, I admit that I probably have something missing or wrong in the above list... but you get the general idea, right?)

But Jumpmasters are fantastic nomatter WHAT pilot you chose!!

So Jumpmasters win?!?

Six of those ships are wave 4 or earlier. Accretion is a thing. Ideally, we'd have something pulling our oldies back into relevance rather than holding back the design space of an entire faction.

You're not wrong. The T-65 is basically in the same position as the TIE Phantom. The generics are basically unusable in the standard game, one ace is remarkably good, and there's one or more uniques right on the periphery (Echo for the Phantom, Wes, Tarn, Wedge and maybe Luke for the T-65). Protectorates are probably in this category, as are YT-2400s, TIE Interceptors, one or two others. But there are a few big differences that come with the T-65.

First, as you identified, it's the iconic hero ship of the first movie, up there with the Millenium Falcon, and the game is named after it. These arguably shouldn't matter from a rational competitive balancing perspective, but the reality is, they do.

Second, despite having been present since day one, the X Wing has never really dominated the meta in any iteration. People think about the Phantom, and they remember the pre nerf days. Fenn brings to mind Paratanni. Dash reminds people of the Superdash, or even the modern day Dash Miranda builds that so many lists struggle with. Yes, Biggs plays a part in a few scary lists (Kanan Biggs is a prominent example, but...

Third, Biggs, the moat successful T-65 is effectively a defensive ship. Games against Biggs lists almost never end with Biggs, alone, soloing his opposition. Even if Biggs was the key piece of the puzzle ultimately responsible for your opponent's win, you're far more likely to remember the ship that actually did the damage, and that's rarely Biggs.

TL:DR - You're right, but it's far more about how people perceive the ships than how good they actually are objectively.

Wes Janson is really good.

I'm actually a bit bored of saying this now but if flown right the rookies can really do a job. Yes you basically shoot, k-turn, green move repeat but if you get your angles right this can be really successful and has been for me when I've been I've been flying 3 of them together in a tight formation.

4 hours ago, RedHotDice said:

But Jumpmasters are fantastic nomatter WHAT pilot you chose!!

So Jumpmasters win?!?

All 4 jumps have won a high level (region?) torunament. All 4. Multiple times. Have had to be nerfed 4 times. Still top ship in the game. Balanced. =)

And soon we will get more scum ships of a similar sentiment.

5 hours ago, Reiver said:

You know, for all the complaining I hear about the X-wing sucking 'except for Biggs', it got me thinking... of the small ships, how many chassis are actually any good with more than one pilot, ever?

A good point! You could keep going and see that it's true a majority of ships. I know because I made such a list a couple of months back.

I'd say we are mixing two complaints here:
1. The ability of Biggs limits the rebel design space in a crippling fashion - Biggs is almost a necessity.He is never chosen because he's an X-Wing. Rather any ship would be taken as long as it had Biggs' ability. Of course that's true for several pilot, but...
2. ...we would like X-Wings to be half-decent as X-Wing, not as HP bag for something else.

Personally I want X-Wings to be something they just are not - I want a sturdy 35pt ace that can outmaneuver other ships, and that was never the X-Wing's role. It's a jouster, a workhorse, a controlship with Wes, maybe even an ordnance carrier. But not an arcdodging ace like Soontir, Vader or Inquisitor.

Check this article of BOLS, it describes this situation perfectly. It is the "one ace wonder" problem.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/04/draft-x-wing-one-ace-wonders.html

The G1A interceptor have the same problem (Just 4-Lom pilot, and 4-Lom is even better Crew). The Khirazx has only Cobra and Cartel Marauder. The viper has only Guri The Y Wing in its two version has only generics.

1 minute ago, Erion_Fett said:

The Khirazx has only Cobra and Cartel Marauder. The viper has only Guri.

Not for much longer...

You may note I specifically avoided mentioning the Cartel Marauder or the StarViper. I'm actually not sure about either - I feel the StarViper got the raw end of the (the fancy ship will be the one that's flown lean and primitve; the cheap-x-wing knockoff is apparently the flying toolbox, eh?), but they're going to drift from 'everything is terrible' to maybe, just maybe, having a couple viable options yet. We'll see soon enough.

I also avoided mentioning the Large ships - quite a few of them have fairly decent selections available. Yeah, the top PS pilot tends to show up a lot, but all 4 Jumpmasters have a place; Chewie and Rey fly Falcons often enough when Han used to rule the roost, and IG-88s, when they were still solid (and of the case for power creep out there, their downfall is probably one of the most telling...) had IG-88B... and then a spirited arguement about which other one to fly with him. Leebo got screentime, the various Decimators all saw some use, and even the poor Shuttle had a couple of viable pilots.

One Ace Wonder seems to be much more of a problem in the smaller expansions, for sure. But it's also really common, yet we have wildly different attitudes to which ones are 'acceptable' vs not. It's an interesting dilemma, for certain.

2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

All 4 jumps have won a high level (region?) torunament. All 4. Multiple times. Have had to be nerfed 4 times. Still top ship in the game. Balanced. =)

And soon we will get more scum ships of a similar sentiment.

It amazes me that this unequivocally true and people still respond with "git gud" or "haven't we already complained about this?"
Arguably, if the Deadeye nerf hadn't happened, the 2016 Worlds final would have been Dengaroo v. Triple Scouts. BALANCE.

But to OP's point (I'm cherry-picking):
- TAPs is a good example. The Devs price the generics out so swarms can't be a thing (see Tie Strike, al la Black Squadron Scout at 20 points instead of 19). Ironically, we end up with Rebel 4-ship tanks (welcome to the Bigg-Auzie meta);
- The Protectorate Starfighter got a "pass" because of Atanni and, SHOCKER, the JM5k, in Old Fenaroo; and
- ALL Tie Advanced suck now because of TLT (and because they have a 2-dice primary).

Good topic; I like it as a platform for further discussion.

Hey man, the T-70 rocks! Nien Nunb as a stress hog and Snap with VI and Black one are definitely viable options.

I mean, they aren't Poetensity but they are still good lol

x-wings are all pretty great

...in Armada

Blame the format. In 100 point matches, you are only every going to need 2-4 ships (typically). Therefore, you are only going to need the best pilot of each chassis. Until squadrons of same-chassis ships gain some sort of synergy, all people will ever use is the best ace.

The ARC is a counter example. Braylen and Norra are both everywhere, and Shara was paired with Norra to synergize their pilot abilities in the list that won the Stele Open. Don't see Thane much, but 3/4 is a good fraction.

6 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Blame the format. In 100 point matches, you are only every going to need 2-4 ships (typically). Therefore, you are only going to need the best pilot of each chassis. Until squadrons of same-chassis ships gain some sort of synergy, all people will ever use is the best ace.

Tell that to the PS 3 Scout... And before that the PS 4 Tie Fighter.
Generics should have a place in the meta and ships should be and are developed with the tournament format in mind.

The format ain't the issue. It's a few bad eggs.

2 hours ago, Erion_Fett said:

Check this article of BOLS, it describes this situation perfectly. It is the "one ace wonder" problem.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/04/draft-x-wing-one-ace-wonders.html

Quote from that article:

Quote

YT-2400: It’s Dash. That’s the beginning and the end of it.

Yeah; nobody would ever fly any other YT-2400 pilot. Not competitively anyway. In particular, not for the European Championship or any similar high-end event. And if they would, they certainly wouldn't win.

18 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Tell that to the PS 3 Scout... And before that the PS 4 Tie Fighter.
Generics should have a place in the meta and ships should be and are developed with the tournament format in mind.

The format ain't the issue. It's a few bad eggs.

Sure, there are some notable exceptions. . .the early TIE swarm and the uber-broken JM5K. You also left out the BBBB list. But still, if you only need 3-4 ships from a dozen options, why wouldn't you cherry-pick the best pilot from each?

It's not really about bad eggs, it's about only talking the best egg. And with this many ships available, you don't need to make any hard choices to fill out a 100 point roster.

The X Wings suck issue comes down to some people want to play Star Wars Fantasy Miniatures instead of FFG Space Ships, and would like to see heroes from the movies actually perform like the movies. As pointed out most ships have only a single exceptional pilot that gets play, with some better ships having 2 or so (Quickdraw/Backdraft, etc). I think that is fine for game balance, but isn't great for keeping people excited about playing a Star Wars game.

There's always going to be a best pilot for each chassis; that's pretty unavoidable. 100 point lists don't give much opportunity for 2nd best pilots. It is usually best to just pick the best pilot flying another ship than the 2nd best pilot flying the same ship. 150+ points changes that.

I think it has been a mistake for FFG to stick to 100 point lists, which made sense early in the game since ships had both fewer upgrade slots and the upgrades were not always as good as just putting more bodies down. Now with upgrade slot bloat and more powerful upgrades available, we're down to 2-3 ships as the norm. 100 points is just too limiting now.

9 minutes ago, Joe Censored said:

I think it has been a mistake for FFG to stick to 100 point lists, which made sense early in the game since ships had both fewer upgrade slots and the upgrades were not always as good as just putting more bodies down. Now with upgrade slot bloat and more powerful upgrades available, we're down to 2-3 ships as the norm. 100 points is just too limiting now.

I really don't think the format is the issue - doesn't raising the point limit just extrapolate existing problems? Let me explain with an example:

SCUM 150 PT

Contracted Scout (38) x 2
JumpMaster 5000 (25), Extra Munitions (2), Proton Torpedoes (4), K4 Security Droid (3), Unhinged Astromech (1), Scavenger Crane (2), Attanni Mindlink (1), Guidance Chips (0)

Contracted Scout (37) x 2
JumpMaster 5000 (25), Extra Munitions (2), Plasma Torpedoes (3), K4 Security Droid (3), Unhinged Astromech (1), Scavenger Crane (2), Attanni Mindlink (1), Guidance Chips (0)

That's 8 torpedoes (with the ability to generate more), 4 free target locks, 3 ships with double focus/repositioning (1 only gets one of those), and all behind 36 hull/shields...

Yes but once they fire off all those torps you've got 4 ships with weak 2 dice turrets, and Biggs taking all those shots - or you wasted a good number of torps just knocking Biggs out. I think a 6 ship rebel regen Biggs list does better against this than you think.

19 minutes ago, Joe Censored said:

Yes but once they fire off all those torps you've got 4 ships with weak 2 dice turrets, and Biggs taking all those shots - or you wasted a good number of torps just knocking Biggs out. I think a 6 ship rebel regen Biggs list does better against this than you think.

Even if one ship dies before firing off both Torps, all others at range 1-2 get one of theirs back if they're all out.

So your counter to my point is that at 150-points the broken things are still broken but much more powerful? ... I know, that's what I said.

18 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Even if one ship dies before firing off both Torps, all others at range 1-2 get one of theirs back if they're all out.

So your counter to my point is that at 150-points the broken things are still broken but much more powerful? ... I know, that's what I said.

My point is just that a 50% increase in points buying only 1 additional torp jumpmaster isn't all that scary. That list is less efficient points wise than the 100 point version (4 torps firing in first round of combat for 50 additional points vs the normal 3 torps). There's lots of lists at 150 points that would burn it down.

4 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Blame the format. In 100 point matches, you are only every going to need 2-4 ships (typically). Therefore, you are only going to need the best pilot of each chassis. Until squadrons of same-chassis ships gain some sort of synergy, all people will ever use is the best ace.

Can't wait for Squad upgrades to be invented!