Speed 2, no defensive retrofit, only one brace token...

C'mon, we all know this. I'm a fan of the VSD and I'm constantly disappointed by its shortcomings. It can't go fast enough to commit the second row of battery dice when it needs to (which is why Dcaps needed to make the VSD-II count). and anyone with an Xi7 generating an accuracy laughs in the VSD's face. But for all that, it's got two redirect tokens, at least letting it use the reserve 3 shields on either side when it's taking a lot of fire. Even with two accuracy aimed at it, it's still got one to pull on. The Upgrade selection, firepower, and command values are good for the ship. What drags all that down is: Speed, and Protection.

The QF? Any Liberty packing H9s and QTLs will lock down both defense tokens when it vomits turbolasers on-target. The VSD at least has some more hull, more engineering, and another redirect to not be so vulnerable when it's in that position. The only thing to stop that rampaging Liberty from tearing apart the QF is either a blocker, or deploying it far away and use Relay.

9 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

The cheap, purpose-built carrier will get torn a new one by one of the most powerful pieces in the Rebel arsenal

Well, yes. Yes it would. It's also MAYBE 70 points fully-loaded, and likely cheaper than that.

It's squishy, but I think that the points value reflects that. It's not supposed to be an assault carrier - use the VSD I for such a role. Leave the Quasar where it belongs - at long range, behind your actual combat vessels.

24 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Speed 2, no defensive retrofit, only one brace token...

C'mon, we all know this. I'm a fan of the VSD and I'm constantly disappointed by its shortcomings. It can't go fast enough to commit the second row of battery dice when it needs to (which is why Dcaps needed to make the VSD-II count). and anyone with an Xi7 generating an accuracy laughs in the VSD's face. But for all that, it's got two redirect tokens, at least letting it use the reserve 3 shields on either side when it's taking a lot of fire. Even with two accuracy aimed at it, it's still got one to pull on. The Upgrade selection, firepower, and command values are good for the ship. What drags all that down is: Speed, and Protection.

The QF? Any Liberty packing H9s and QTLs will lock down both defense tokens when it vomits turbolasers on-target. The VSD at least has some more hull, more engineering, and another redirect to not be so vulnerable when it's in that position. The only thing to stop that rampaging Liberty from tearing apart the QF is either a blocker, or deploying it far away and use Relay.

You could focus on that, I guess. I see a ship that at 73 points has six natural dice in its front arc, 8 hull, 9 shields, brace/2xRdr, 3 squad/4 engineering. Good upgrade access. I've always looked at the VSD as stat stick. Especially at this point in the games lifespan.

Really, I just cant get behind the idea that this ship has poor stats. The only cogent argument for is that it hard caps at speed 2. Because if you get to use arguments like "anything with xi7's and an accuracy" i get to say things like "you can put a def retro on it with Tua" or "you can fix that turn like a brick issue with Jerry"

4 hours ago, Madaghmire said:

You could focus on that, I guess. I see a ship that at 73 points has six natural dice in its front arc, 8 hull, 9 shields, brace/2xRdr, 3 squad/4 engineering. Good upgrade access. I've always looked at the VSD as stat stick. Especially at this point in the games lifespan.

Really, I just cant get behind the idea that this ship has poor stats. The only cogent argument for is that it hard caps at speed 2. Because if you get to use arguments like "anything with xi7's and an accuracy" i get to say things like "you can put a def retro on it with Tua" or "you can fix that turn like a brick issue with Jerry"

Well, I didn't feel the VSD was such that I could build it to trash enemy ships like Demolisher or Avenger (or any ISD-II). It's not a ship you can build up to be feared by your opponent. VSD-Is with Expanded Launchers and Ordnance Experts is truly terrifying and awesome, but all it takes is an Ackbar Gunline with A/Fs (or ARQs, like my current list) to stay out at range and just keep shooting at the VSD. Intel officers or any accuracy can keep the brace down long enough for you to trash it. The VSD can't speed up fast enough to close the distance and start using its second row of dice.

D-Caps changes this equation at least because now you can throw six dice down range with a re-roll. If Dominator worked at long range, then we'd have something, but the titles here are just disappointing compared to Demolisher, or Avenger, or Devestator. Still, VSDs can take up Xi7s with SW-7s for six dice into a single arc, which is awesome.

And just... protection. Right it has good shields/repair/hull... but no contain and no ECM means things like APTs are still going to work against it (it can never take a DCO to stop them), and if you want that ECM, you're only buffing one of them. And you're losing the officer slot in exchange, where the ISD-II has that slot and dedicates the officer to Intel Officer or whatever you'd like there.

I mean, what I'd love out of the VSD is to have it as ubiquitous of a choice as CR-90s with TRCs. You take them, put your favorite upgrades on them, and they can work in any list for any situation. But ever since Ackbar and Rieekan's fighter swarms have repeatedly trashed the ship, I'm doubtful of their viability in the modern meta.

And that kind of goes for every medium out there. Players take the big ships for massive batteries, but if you want to add more ships in the list or field deadly upgrades, you pad your list with light ships and fighters so you can win the activation war and get the advantage that way.

But anyway, Quasar Fire. If you're setup against a list with a Demo/Liberty with flotilla spam and you're out-deployed, what do you do?

1 hour ago, Norsehound said:

Well, I didn't feel the VSD was such that I could build it to trash enemy ships like Demolisher or Avenger (or any ISD-II). It's not a ship you can build up to be feared by your opponent. VSD-Is with Expanded Launchers and Ordnance Experts is truly terrifying and awesome, but all it takes is an Ackbar Gunline with A/Fs (or ARQs, like my current list) to stay out at range and just keep shooting at the VSD. Intel officers or any accuracy can keep the brace down long enough for you to trash it. The VSD can't speed up fast enough to close the distance and start using its second row of dice.

D-Caps changes this equation at least because now you can throw six dice down range with a re-roll. If Dominator worked at long range, then we'd have something, but the titles here are just disappointing compared to Demolisher, or Avenger, or Devestator. Still, VSDs can take up Xi7s with SW-7s for six dice into a single arc, which is awesome.

And just... protection. Right it has good shields/repair/hull... but no contain and no ECM means things like APTs are still going to work against it (it can never take a DCO to stop them), and if you want that ECM, you're only buffing one of them. And you're losing the officer slot in exchange, where the ISD-II has that slot and dedicates the officer to Intel Officer or whatever you'd like there.

I mean, what I'd love out of the VSD is to have it as ubiquitous of a choice as CR-90s with TRCs. You take them, put your favorite upgrades on them, and they can work in any list for any situation. But ever since Ackbar and Rieekan's fighter swarms have repeatedly trashed the ship, I'm doubtful of their viability in the modern meta.

And that kind of goes for every medium out there. Players take the big ships for massive batteries, but if you want to add more ships in the list or field deadly upgrades, you pad your list with light ships and fighters so you can win the activation war and get the advantage that way.

But anyway, Quasar Fire. If you're setup against a list with a Demo/Liberty with flotilla spam and you're out-deployed, what do you do?

Pretty much none of this is an issue witg the ships base stats. A lot of it is totally valid concerns about the practical application of using a VSD on the table (except the part about the AF Ackbar gun lines, which is about as valid as my own fear of being trampled by a Wooly Mammoth). I'm just going to assume that you now believe the VSD has wonderful stats.

As for the quasar, id deploy mid table, nav hard first turn or two as to create space and keep my squadrons between me and the big scary space ship. Tough question tho since I dont know what other resources I have at my disposal, in terms of blockers or my own battleships.

1 minute ago, Madaghmire said:

Pretty much none of this is an issue witg the ships base stats. A lot of it is totally valid concerns about the practical application of using a VSD on the table (except the part about the AF Ackbar gun lines, which is about as valid as my own fear of being trampled by a Wooly Mammoth). I'm just going to assume that you now believe the VSD has wonderful stats.

As for the quasar, id deploy mid table, nav hard first turn or two as to create space and keep my squadrons between me and the big scary space ship. Tough question tho since I dont know what other resources I have at my disposal, in terms of blockers or my own battleships.

I wouldn't trample you as such.

But I *am* trying to lose weight.

1 hour ago, Norsehound said:

Well, I didn't feel the VSD was such that I could build it to trash enemy ships like Demolisher or Avenger (or any ISD-II). It's not a ship you can build up to be feared by your opponent. VSD-Is with Expanded Launchers and Ordnance Experts is truly terrifying and awesome, but all it takes is an Ackbar Gunline with A/Fs (or ARQs, like my current list) to stay out at range and just keep shooting at the VSD. Intel officers or any accuracy can keep the brace down long enough for you to trash it. The VSD can't speed up fast enough to close the distance and start using its second row of dice.

D-Caps changes this equation at least because now you can throw six dice down range with a re-roll. If Dominator worked at long range, then we'd have something, but the titles here are just disappointing compared to Demolisher, or Avenger, or Devestator. Still, VSDs can take up Xi7s with SW-7s for six dice into a single arc, which is awesome.

And just... protection. Right it has good shields/repair/hull... but no contain and no ECM means things like APTs are still going to work against it (it can never take a DCO to stop them), and if you want that ECM, you're only buffing one of them. And you're losing the officer slot in exchange, where the ISD-II has that slot and dedicates the officer to Intel Officer or whatever you'd like there.

I mean, what I'd love out of the VSD is to have it as ubiquitous of a choice as CR-90s with TRCs. You take them, put your favorite upgrades on them, and they can work in any list for any situation. But ever since Ackbar and Rieekan's fighter swarms have repeatedly trashed the ship, I'm doubtful of their viability in the modern meta.

And that kind of goes for every medium out there. Players take the big ships for massive batteries, but if you want to add more ships in the list or field deadly upgrades, you pad your list with light ships and fighters so you can win the activation war and get the advantage that way.

But anyway, Quasar Fire. If you're setup against a list with a Demo/Liberty with flotilla spam and you're out-deployed, what do you do?

Vic II should be feared now. JJ, DC, LS, XI7/QBT, Tua ECM, GT. 136 points for a ship throwing up to 7/8 dice at 2 targets at long range with rerolls. Scoot forward 2, rinse/repeat at medium. I took second place in a SC with 2 of them with IO and 2 Comms Net, Maarek, Ciena, Valen, and 2 Decimators. I won a SC with that build with Demo, Insidious, FT Raider, Comms Net, Ciena and Valen. Of 11 games I've played with them, I've lost 2. My dual Vic list lost 1 each game, but they scored at least double their cost. I've yet to lose a Tua Vic.

The secret is to spam repair. Comms Net over a repair token, and turns 4-6 are repairs. Recover 3 shields or drop 2 cards. JJ makes up for Nav, and you keep a token just in case. Once you lose all shields, you disengage. This build is more than capable of going toe to toe with any other ship, so long as you don't get stuck in place.

With initiative, you delay so your Vic goes last and when it has 2 targets at long, you blow DC. Then when you go first, you should be at medium of both, allowing you to destroy both targets. That's a total of 24/28/30 (normal/QBT/CF) dice that your opponent has nothing to do against.

Vic II is the anchor to your fleet. It allows you to run a massive threat that is cheaper than the other options, and still allows you to take Demo and a bunch of squads with support. It has a natural balance with Demo because you get the mix of long/medium and close range. And you can pop 2 flotillas at long range which swings activation into your favor.

In regards to IO, I find I'm generating enough Acc when I need them. Or I just LS my entire pool. Tua is invaluable because Brace is what keeps the Vic alive. It can't take multiple, massive dice shots like an MC80 or ISD without the Brace. Otherwise you're left with no shields which means 2 of your tokens are useless. It also acts as a counter to XI7.

You can also show how fragile Quasars are with Vic. 2 Acc and it's pretty much over.

1 hour ago, Norsehound said:

But anyway, Quasar Fire. If you're setup against a list with a Demo/Liberty with flotilla spam and you're out-deployed, what do you do?

As someone who plays a Madine/Liberty list, I relish playing against QF's that aren't flown well. So there's part of you that is absolutely right to be scared, because I'll last/first if I can and in most cases would have a huge benefit out of going first.

You mention being out-deployed. For my list, you're probably going to outdeploy me, which makes things much easier for you. But if you're facing lists that are closer in style to what @Aresiusruns, then I can understand the concern. On the other hand, the Liberty and squads are the only threats in those lists, and a Sloan list should bring the squadron power to deal with those squads, so the only question is handling the Liberty. In my list, you have to deal with the fact that there is also an Admonition floating around. So dealing with each list type is going to be slightly different.

The match-up is going to come down to three points: 1. What other units did you bring and how effectively did you bring them to bear on the Liberty? 2. What happened in the squadron game? 3. How well was the Liberty player able to mitigate the extremely vulnerable side arcs? Objectives and Obstacle placement then factor into how these questions get answered.

In the end, you're speaking of matching up against well designed lists, which when well played are going to be tough match-ups. I happen to think there is a Quasar/Sloan list out there that when flown well, will compete with some of these other lists out there.

Being outdeployed has always been possible, and the same plans that work in other settings work here.

2 hours ago, Madaghmire said:

Pretty much none of this is an issue witg the ships base stats. A lot of it is totally valid concerns about the practical application of using a VSD on the table (except the part about the AF Ackbar gun lines, which is about as valid as my own fear of being trampled by a Wooly Mammoth). I'm just going to assume that you now believe the VSD has wonderful stats.

As for the quasar, id deploy mid table, nav hard first turn or two as to create space and keep my squadrons between me and the big scary space ship. Tough question tho since I dont know what other resources I have at my disposal, in terms of blockers or my own battleships.

I realize I did misspeak when saying "base stats". I always felt the VSD has many ingredients to be a great ship it's just....! It keeps coming down to protection and speed in my mind that prevent me from being satisfied with it. Protection because it needs help on the approach so it doesn't end up with partial health when it's in optimum firing range, and speed to help get it there if it has to chase targets. It seems to me the best use for a run-of-the-mill Victory (apart from being a carrier), is to play defensively squatting on objectives then try to annihilate target ships quickly before they can take advantage of your weaknesses. This is presuming you're facing seasoned opponents who know how great XI7s are and who often field fighters.

I mean, it's not like you can take Expanded Launcher Victory-Is. The last time I asked Mythics this question he laughed and told me to stop trying. There's nothing on the stat card to say Expanded Launchers + Ordnance Experts and something like Tractor Beams on a VSD-I is a bad idea. In fact it's great- throw eight dice (five black) with ordnance expert control and XI7s with an Intel officer (Or hovering Jonus)? Sounds great! It's in practical application that you realize you'll never get to black range chasing something, and you'll be sniped from long range long before you can actually use the black row to kill something. Most players in tournaments are smart enough not to let themselves get into close range- they'll kill you on the approach, or deploy-flank you. Jerjerrod is a nice idea but not against something like my ARQ battery list, which just hangs at range and pops the speed tokens to go faster to maintain distance as my ships circle around and hammer you with 5 red dice, a re-roll, and Jonus auto-accuracy from a distance with Intel Officers.

When I prosed the Quasar question, I leave it open to what else you would want to take in the list. Load up on Gozantis for activation? Swarms of TIEs? Put it next to Demolisher, or Avenger? I'm curious here how players would get around the liabilities I'm seeing in the Quasar.

2 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

Vic II should be feared now. JJ, DC, LS, XI7/QBT, Tua ECM, GT. 136 points for a ship throwing up to 7/8 dice at 2 targets at long range with rerolls. Scoot forward 2, rinse/repeat at medium. I took second place in a SC with 2 of them with IO and 2 Comms Net, Maarek, Ciena, Valen, and 2 Decimators. I won a SC with that build with Demo, Insidious, FT Raider, Comms Net, Ciena and Valen. Of 11 games I've played with them, I've lost 2. My dual Vic list lost 1 each game, but they scored at least double their cost. I've yet to lose a Tua Vic.

How are you taking two VSDs with two Tuas? It's a unique, so you can only have one with ECMs.

Of course I know that's not what you mean, but it does mean one of them doesn't have Tua on it, and that's the first one to get shot at. One of my pain points with these VSDs (which I should probably bring to another conversation, out of this one) is that there is nothing to help Generic VSDs. Yes, you can load up Warlord with Tua, but is there validity in taking multiple VSDs without one of them having an acchilies' heel of not having Tua onboard? Take Needa and you have a ship that is not good at close range. There is no nice, generic loadout that patches both the problems of Speed and Protection. Speed we can get around with Dcaps now, but protection? You're still limited to uniques, meaning your VSDs are not identical and one of them is going to get the target priority based on what it has.

I need to actually try VSDs again now that the Dcaps are out... but conceptually I don't feel they compete with my ARQ battery. I can easily see how my ARQ battery beats VSDs no matter what configuration I come up with, except the configuration that squats on objectives with a deep bid to go second. Alas...

1 hour ago, Vergilius said:

You mention being out-deployed. For my list, you're probably going to outdeploy me, which makes things much easier for you. But if you're facing lists that are closer in style to what @Aresiusruns, then I can understand the concern. On the other hand, the Liberty and squads are the only threats in those lists, and a Sloan list should bring the squadron power to deal with those squads, so the only question is handling the Liberty. In my list, you have to deal with the fact that there is also an Admonition floating around. So dealing with each list type is going to be slightly different.

Methinks you and I have played before if you're a native in the SF Bay area.

I agree that the fighter game is going to have a big part of this. What I would fear as a QF player is having my squadrons tied up with interfering squadrons, and an opponent's heavy hitter pushing through those squads (or getting around them) to knock out the carrier. It's a thing I would have to pay attention to during deployment to watch where ships go, maybe putting some fighters out of position just so I can drop my QF in a good spot.

48 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Methinks you and I have played before if you're a native in the SF Bay area.

I agree that the fighter game is going to have a big part of this. What I would fear as a QF player is having my squadrons tied up with interfering squadrons, and an opponent's heavy hitter pushing through those squads (or getting around them) to knock out the carrier. It's a thing I would have to pay attention to during deployment to watch where ships go, maybe putting some fighters out of position just so I can drop my QF in a good spot.

We've never played. I've never been to SF. I did pioneer a Madine Liberty build, and there are three posts that I've written (Houston Regional, San Antonio Regional, Worlds), and then every time a Liberty or Madine gets mentioned, someone seems to page me. I do have a bit of a cult following now, in that one player borrowed my list and won the London regional with it, and I've had extensive communication with 2-3 others about it. And that's not to mention anyone who looked at the list and decided it was a good starting point for putting a Madine Liberty into play themselves.

Dengar synergizes so well with the other elements that show in a Sloan list. That ought to take care of any concern from squads getting tied up with interfering squadrons.

6 hours ago, Norsehound said:

How are you taking two VSDs with two Tuas? It's a unique, so you can only have one with ECMs.

Of course I know that's not what you mean, but it does mean one of them doesn't have Tua on it, and that's the first one to get shot at. One of my pain points with these VSDs (which I should probably bring to another conversation, out of this one) is that there is nothing to help Generic VSDs. Yes, you can load up Warlord with Tua, but is there validity in taking multiple VSDs without one of them having an acchilies' heel of not having Tua onboard? Take Needa and you have a ship that is not good at close range. There is no nice, generic loadout that patches both the problems of Speed and Protection. Speed we can get around with Dcaps now, but protection? You're still limited to uniques, meaning your VSDs are not identical and one of them is going to get the target priority based on what it has.

I need to actually try VSDs again now that the Dcaps are out... but conceptually I don't feel they compete with my ARQ battery. I can easily see how my ARQ battery beats VSDs no matter what configuration I come up with, except the configuration that squats on objectives with a deep bid to go second. Alas...

When I ran the Dual Vics, I did not have Tua in my list, but I was running IO on both. Tuawould have saved JJ in my first game when Ackbar threw 9 damage and 3 Acc which wiped JJ off the board. And that is why I dropped the other Vic and put Tua on the flag ship. For 136 points, I think it is the cheapest, most reliable way to deal damage at long range.

You gotta try it. It's pretty **** terrifying when you have initiative.

I don't think an equal point value of Arqs will beat this Vic. I've been last/first them and they die after 2 shots. The DC/GT combo is extremely powerful.

5 hours ago, Vergilius said:

I do have a bit of a cult following now,

The Cult of Ben. They call themselves Classicists.

6 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

The Cult of Ben. They call themselves Classicists.

People's front of Ben-Classic, as opposed to the Been People's Front. Splitters!

Just now, Madaghmire said:

The Cult of Ben. They call themselves Classicists.

The really funny thing about this is that Ben is himself a classicist.

30 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

The really funny thing about this is that Ben is himself a classicist.

Ha! Of course he is. Classic Ben.

5 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

Ha! Of course he is. Classic Ben.

He means that quite literally, in that I have a degree in Classics.

I have to admit, I got up this morning and was reading this and literally could not stop laughing for five minutes. Its already going to be a great day.

21 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

He means that quite literally, in that I have a degree in Classics.

I have to admit, I got up this morning and was reading this and literally could not stop laughing for five minutes. Its already going to be a great day.

Oh I figured. I also have a useless degree.

33 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

Oh I figured. I also have a useless degree.

Ha!

The good, the true, and the beautiful are intrinsically good for their own sake.

Or at least we can tell ourselves that...

I've got a dual Vic II/Quasar Motti list that I'm itching to try out, but I've been down with the flu so have yet to see how it plays. With 8 hull the Quasar (on paper at least) looks able to survive a bit more of the attention that'll be directed at it - hopefully for long enough to allow my fighter ball to do its job sweeping the board of bombers. My hope is that enemy big hitters will have more pressing concerns in the form of two Dcap/Quad/Gunnery/LS Victories pointed in their general direction, and so allow the carrier to do it's job.

I find it underwhelming for the point cost and I am disappointed that there is no Rapid Launch Bays upgrade card in the box.

15 hours ago, TheRealStarkiller said:

I find it underwhelming for the point cost and I am disappointed that there is no Rapid Launch Bays upgrade card in the box.

Or Flight Controllers. Still annoyed you have to buy a $40 box of a ship you already have at least 1 of (from the Core Set) in order to get 1 copy of that card.

Flight Controllers is the worst that way.

Flight Commander is a close second. Because of the cost of the ship its with, and the fact that even people who WANT that ship usually only want one of them.

Most days, I think Flight Commander is worse of the two, because of its cost and slot, and ubiquity, I want like, 4 copies. At once.

1 hour ago, Valca said:

Or Flight Controllers. Still annoyed you have to buy a $40 box of a ship you already have at least 1 of (from the Core Set) in order to get 1 copy of that card.

And Ion Cannon Batteries (only place to get them). And Intel Officer. And Gunnery Team. And Expanded Hangar Bays. And a few other upgrades that are otherwise available in only one other place. Honestly it's not that bad a deal and 2 are easily worth owning. Once you get past 2, though, I get skeptical.

14 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

And Ion Cannon Batteries (only place to get them). And Intel Officer. And Gunnery Team. And Expanded Hangar Bays. And a few other upgrades that are otherwise available in only one other place. Honestly it's not that bad a deal and 2 are easily worth owning. Once you get past 2, though, I get skeptical.

Most days I feel like I need 2 more Ion Cannon Batteries.

42 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Most days I feel like I need 2 more Ion Cannon Batteries.

I picked up 2 ICB for $2.50 a pop on eBay. Flight Controllers was $15 last I looked.