3 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

I've thought about this for a bit, and I still don't get why you would take ACM. I get it on Demo since you can move in and do it, but on an MC30 you have a limited window to use your black dice. APT would be the better option since you have H9, so they never have access to a Brace.

Assuming a full health Quasar, it's 2/2/2 for shields. ACM drops it to 1/2/1, so they redirect one point, so it's still 3 damage on shields.

Same for APT. 2/2/2 shields. APT happens dealing 1 face up, and they redirect for 2 points, so 4 damage on shields.

You're spending 2 extra points to distribute your damage in a different way, but APT has more versatility with crit effects and being useful against other ships, especially when pushing for the last hull point to kill a ship.

For the same situation, assuming you went last/first with the MC30 and are attacking the same hull zone, ACM might be better since the shields are 0/0/1, which means you strip the last shield and put a damage card on. APT is 0/0/2, so they can redirect 2 damage, but you still put a card on face up. After 2 rounds of attacks, your crit effects have yielded: ACM - no shields 1 hull - APT - no shields 2 hull - assuming your opponent redirects the damage and you're attack the front hull.

ACM does let other ships have an easier time attacking the target, but ACM is useless against flotillas. ACM is great against double redirect ship, but APT makes it easier to 1 shot small ships.

I get why you would use ACM in general, but not why you would use it on a Quasar.

Why do you assume a limited window? With last first you can easily set up more than one activation of shots.

With apts and one acc, assuming a critical, you have to do 12 damage over two attacks to drop a quasar with an mc30. After the apt and assuming no SD that leaves 10 damage.

Same scenario but acm. You have to do 9 damage after the acm. So it is slightly easier with acms.... About 2 points easier

7 minutes ago, Tirion said:

Why do you assume a limited window? With last first you can easily set up more than one activation of shots.

With apts and one acc, assuming a critical, you have to do 12 damage over two attacks to drop a quasar with an mc30. After the apt and assuming no SD that leaves 10 damage.

Same scenario but acm. You have to do 9 damage after the acm. So it is slightly easier with acms.... About 2 points easier

The best way to analyze the conditions is to standardize everything.

Fixed damage, fixed actions (how to redirect). You can't really say ACM or APT is better if you're not going to control all variables.

I think in some cases, ACM can be a stronger Ordnance upgrade, but APT will always be useful in any case you could use ACM. Over time, ACM will deal more damage by stripping shields, but APT can also cripple a ship. I think it comes down to personal preference and I was curious why someone would take ACM over APT.

The trouble with attempting to control for variables is that when it comes to the game, one player builds a fleet and then pits it against another player's fleet. In virtually no two games are the variables ever equal.

What we're left with, I think, is Undeadguy's comment about ACM being more meaningful in some contexts, and APT being more widely useful and cheaper, which in a tough economy of points, tends to tip the scales.

I've experimented with ACM in my Madine list where the MC30 functions as the first ship to open up on very large ships, and where the extra shield damage on the adjacent hull zones makes it much more likely that follow-up shots drop that large ship. I think that is one situation and one specific list where ACM might have marginally better use. In the end, I almost always put APT on the table because it is cheaper and still does pretty darn good work.

6 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

The best way to analyze the conditions is to standardize everything.

Fixed damage, fixed actions (how to redirect). You can't really say ACM or APT is better if you're not going to control all variables.

I think in some cases, ACM can be a stronger Ordnance upgrade, but APT will always be useful in any case you could use ACM. Over time, ACM will deal more damage by stripping shields, but APT can also cripple a ship. I think it comes down to personal preference and I was curious why someone would take ACM over APT.

I did control variables. I gauranteed acc and crit for each attack. You need less overall damage from acms against a quasar. That is why you would take acms

Getting back to the Quasar, I think it's just as durable as it needs to be for the role. Especially with Motti. I've run it in three games so far and the biggest determinate of if it lives or dies has been deployment. If I can manage to deploy it so that it can skirt around the edge of the fight and keep activating it's alpha strike then it's been pretty effective. PLUS if my opponents sends a hammerhead or CR90 to try and take it out I've been able to call the bombers home to help pick away at it and finish it off with the forward battery dice. Sure, it's going to die against any serious effort to kill it BUT it excels at the job it was designed and costed for. Partner with an ISD and a serious fighter screen for fun and profit.

5 hours ago, Tirion said:

I did control variables. I gauranteed acc and crit for each attack. You need less overall damage from acms against a quasar. That is why you would take acms

Take ACM so I can kill Quasars? Seems very situational.

2 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

Take ACM so I can kill Quasars? Seems very situational.

We were specifically talking about them.... Also acm is better against quasars. Haven't done the math but it's probably better against most ships. Thing that you can't account for is what the face up will be from apt.

27 minutes ago, Tirion said:

We were specifically talking about them.... Also acm is better against quasars. Haven't done the math but it's probably better against most ships. Thing that you can't account for is what the face up will be from apt.

I think it depends on what upgrades you have on the ship. An H9 MC30 would work better with APT since you can target the Brace so you don't have a reduction in your raw damage. Without H9, ACM would be better since your damage will be reduced by Brace, but it's effectively +2 for the sides and may dissuade your opponent from using Redirect so your braced damage goes onto 1 hull.

I think Demo might be the best ACM platform since it can strip most of the shields off a ship by itself, and ACM gets around Brace.

It's my preference to run APT and that comes from experience playing with and against APT. Being able to kill a ship with a single attack is powerful. I also like to drop face ups on ships. IMO, hull damage is better than stripping shields, even though ACM vs APT on a Quasar does show ACM will kill it more consistently than APT.

Take that same situation (OE, Confire, Double arc, front arc first, APT/ACM comparison) against a bigger target or a smaller

For reference:

Front arc: 3.75 (4) damage, accuracy (used CF)

Side: 4.5 damage, acc

Against a raider (APT)

1st shot (side arc): 1 crit, 2 shields gone, 2.5 hull gone. Act .5 hull left. Decent instagib chances and a crit effect. Second shot may go elsewhere.

Raider (ACM):

1st shot (side): 4 shields gone, 2.5 hull damage. Going to have to use a second shot.

Nebulon (APT):

1st shot: Braced (**** you double brace), 2 shields destroyed and 1 crit to hull.

2nd shot: Still braced (what a stubborn target), 1 more crit, 1 shield destroyed. 1-2 damage to hull. Neb survives with 1-2 hull and two crit effects.

Neb (ACMs)

1st shot: 2 damage to front shields, side shields gone.

2nd shot: two damage to hull from ACM, 1 shield gone, 1-2 hull damage from regular shot. Neb lives with 1-2 hull and no crits.

ACMs (unsurprisingly), don't help on ships with no redirect.

ISD1 (APTs):

End result of a single double arc: 2 crits to hull, all side shields destroyed, 2.5 front shields gone.

End result of a second (**** you Admonition!): 4 crits to hull, 7 hull damage. Dead if not Motti and didn't move shields. If either is true, ISD lives.

ISD1 (ACMs):

End Result of 1st: All front and side shields gone, 2.5 damage to hull.

End of 2nd: 15 hull damage total. Dead unless Motti AND repaired/moved shields.

Seems like ACMs are situationally better.

11 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Nebulon (APT):

1st shot: Braced (**** you double brace), 2 shields destroyed and 1 crit to hull.

2nd shot: Still braced (what a stubborn target), 1 more crit, 1 shield destroyed. 1-2 damage to hull. Neb survives with 1-2 hull and two crit effects.

Neb (ACMs)

1st shot: 2 damage to front shields, side shields gone.

2nd shot: two damage to hull from ACM, 1 shield gone, 1-2 hull damage from regular shot. Neb lives with 1-2 hull and no crits.

ACMs (unsurprisingly), don't help on ships with no redirect.

I don't think this is a good example. If you have H9, you won't use it. You're at close range and can't lock down both Braces unless you roll 1 Acc on the initial attack. And I don't think I've seen a Neb survive a double arc from a black dice ship. It just doesn't happen often, mainly because you want to shoot into the massive side arc. If you have a double arc on the front, you should have your side arc on its side but I'm not 100% on that.

And just to make the number whole, we can look at ACM vs APT with the following conditions:

Front - CF, H9, 4 damage (1 crit, 2 hits)
Side - H9, 5 damage (1 crit, 3 hits)
Into ISD I front.

APT:
Front - Redirect 3 to side, 1 on front. 1 Face up, Shields 3/3/0
Side - Redirect 3 to side, 2 on front. 1 Face up, Shields 0/1/0
Front - 1 to front, 1 Face up, 3 Face down. Current hull = 5
Side - 1 Face up, 5 Face down. ISD destroyed

ACM
Front - Redirect 1 to side, 3 on front, ACM. Shields 2/1/1
Side, Redirect 1 side, 4 on front. ACM. 3 Face down, Shields 0/0/0
Front - 6 Face down (+2 ACM). Current hull = 2
Side - 7 Face down (+2 ACM). ISD Destroyed, Motti cannot save.

Our numbers are pretty close, but the whole numbers are easier to work with. ACM is definitely better against larger ships. It acts like XI7, but deals damage. ACM does not help much against Flots, HH, Raider, CR90s. APT would be the better option against those ships. I think it is a wash in regards to Glads and MC30s, since stripping shields and dealing hull is important for kill them. We also are not considering what crits may be drawn.

It's been my experience that ACMs are superior against ships that use redirects, particularly if they're at least 5 or more hull. In those circumstances it's rare to be able to just kill something through hull damage and ramming (like you can with APTs against something like a CR90, for example), so burning through the shields is more effective. Every now and then the APT face-up crit surprises you, though.

The short version is APTs are better against small ships and ACMs are better against heavier ships, but they're both good.

With External Racks now allowing Raiders to one-shot most of the light ships APTs used to crunch through, I'm experimenting with putting ACMs back on my Gladiators. The improved punch against heavier ships has been nice.

Edit: I wrote a fair amount about it on the blog too, but you got the short version ;).

23 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I don't think this is a good example. If you have H9, you won't use it. You're at close range and can't lock down both Braces unless you roll 1 Acc on the initial attack. And I don't think I've seen a Neb survive a double arc from a black dice ship. It just doesn't happen often, mainly because you want to shoot into the massive side arc. If you have a double arc on the front, you should have your side arc on its side but I'm not 100% on that.

And just to make the number whole, we can look at ACM vs APT with the following conditions:

Front - CF, H9, 4 damage (1 crit, 2 hits)
Side - H9, 5 damage (1 crit, 3 hits)
Into ISD I front.

APT:
Front - Redirect 3 to side, 1 on front. 1 Face up, Shields 3/3/0
Side - Redirect 3 to side, 2 on front. 1 Face up, Shields 0/1/0
Front - 1 to front, 1 Face up, 3 Face down. Current hull = 5
Side - 1 Face up, 5 Face down. ISD destroyed

ACM
Front - Redirect 1 to side, 3 on front, ACM. Shields 2/1/1
Side, Redirect 1 side, 4 on front. ACM. 3 Face down, Shields 0/0/0
Front - 6 Face down (+2 ACM). Current hull = 2
Side - 7 Face down (+2 ACM). ISD Destroyed, Motti cannot save.

Our numbers are pretty close, but the whole numbers are easier to work with. ACM is definitely better against larger ships. It acts like XI7, but deals damage. ACM does not help much against Flots, HH, Raider, CR90s. APT would be the better option against those ships. I think it is a wash in regards to Glads and MC30s, since stripping shields and dealing hull is important for kill them. We also are not considering what crits may be drawn.

Fair point in not using H9s in the Neb example. I derped on that. That moves Damage up into both probably kill the Neb, but it is a close thing.

You are are also completely right about the crits not being considered. I don't have a way to quantify them.

I look at APT as a soft counter to braces. If you get 7 damage, you actually deal 5 instead of 4 after a brace. If you have an even number in damage, you should always reroll one black die to see if you can up the damage, if your opponent has a brace.

7 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Fair point in not using H9s in the Neb example. I derped on that. That moves Damage up into both probably kill the Neb, but it is a close thing.

You are are also completely right about the crits not being considered. I don't have a way to quantify them.

I don't think there is a way to quantify them. You could say you have a 8/52 chance to draw a structural, but what about the other crits? I tend to look at APT as +1 damage on what ever I roll.

For Dodonna, the value of APTs clearly go up.

And I think we've come around to the old consensus of what we've known for over a year on APT versus ACM. I still think in most of my lists that it comes down to the fact that APT is two points cheaper.

3 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

For Dodonna, the value of APTs clearly go up.

And I think we've come around to the old consensus of what we've known for over a year on APT versus ACM. I still think in most of my lists that it comes down to the fact that APT is two points cheaper.

Well I'm trying something even crazier at a store championship this weekend. 2 mc30s, 2 external racks. Crits are for cool kids, more dice is where it's at.

5 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

For Dodonna, the value of APTs clearly go up.

And I think we've come around to the old consensus of what we've known for over a year on APT versus ACM. I still think in most of my lists that it comes down to the fact that APT is two points cheaper.

I think ACMs are costed slightly higher because if you count the extra damage in terms of eng value, it costs 4 points to heal 2 shields, 3 points to heal a face-up damage. sure there is an added crit effect but is still erratic without dodonna.
Thus ships cannot recover as quick from an ACM salvo vs APT.

4 hours ago, Grinoch said:

Getting back to the Quasar, I think it's just as durable as it needs to be for the role. Especially with Motti. I've run it in three games so far and the biggest determinate of if it lives or dies has been deployment. If I can manage to deploy it so that it can skirt around the edge of the fight and keep activating it's alpha strike then it's been pretty effective. PLUS if my opponents sends a hammerhead or CR90 to try and take it out I've been able to call the bombers home to help pick away at it and finish it off with the forward battery dice. Sure, it's going to die against any serious effort to kill it BUT it excels at the job it was designed and costed for. Partner with an ISD and a serious fighter screen for fun and profit.

Anyway, back to the Quasar, from what I understand from this, to keep it alive we should treat it like an oversized flotilla? keep it ranged and command squads unless having something better to do like stronghold?

13 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Well I'm trying something even crazier at a store championship this weekend. 2 mc30s, 2 external racks. Crits are for cool kids, more dice is where it's at.

I think the idea has merit. Most of the time, you're not getting more than the one activation of damage. As @Caldias pointed out above, its still subject to brace. But still, that's 1.25 average damage per die, or 2.5 average damage overall. And to be fair, a double arc APT is no guarantee of two face-up cards. I haven't done the math in a while, but I think it is somewhere around 1.6-1.7 average damage. Of course, we can't quantify what the face-up crit is actually worth in terms of damage, but no exercise in comparison is perfect, as this thread aptly illustrates. So there's a slight boost and its 2 points cheaper. Make it an H9 MC30 and you can make the damage stick much more easily, and with External Racks and CF dial, that's 3+CF side and 2+ER out the front. It doesn't matter which he braces, there's going to be comparable damage.

I'll be eager to hear about how it goes.

I played against a quazar and my opponent sent it straight up the middle..... My two torpedo HHs obliterated it with external racks. Only have to use one to do 7 damage including a crit which added one more. My second HH had no trouble getting that last damage.

So yes if you send it into the enemy fleet head on.... It dies hahaha. So send it around the side or in behind your ISD, VSD and other combat geared ships.

12 minutes ago, Muelmuel said:

I think ACMs are costed slightly higher because if you count the extra damage in terms of eng value, it costs 4 points to heal 2 shields, 3 points to heal a face-up damage. sure there is an added crit effect but is still erratic without dodonna.
Thus ships cannot recover as quick from an ACM salvo vs APT.

Anyway, back to the Quasar, from what I understand from this, to keep it alive we should treat it like an oversized flotilla? keep it ranged and command squads unless having something better to do like stronghold?

A flotilla that can activate 6 squadrons with EHBs and a token AND take flight controllers. Throw in Howlrunner and have a Tie Interceptor throw 6 blue dice. With swarm you can start to reliably one shot enemy aces. I also threw in Mauler to take care of the survivors.

Motti is a Quasar's best friend.

8 hull puts it right at MC80 card based health, or a non-Motti Victory. Not too shabby for a 60-something point ship pushing 5-6 squadrons.

32 minutes ago, Muelmuel said:

Anyway, back to the Quasar, from what I understand from this, to keep it alive we should treat it like an oversized flotilla? keep it ranged and command squads unless having something better to do like stronghold?

It is more dual purpose than flotillas. I would still engage with it, but either delay engagement (if part of a swarm) or roll it in next to big guns (ISDs).

It has managed to become the first ship I would really consider Boosted Comms for.

2 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

I think it depends on what upgrades you have on the ship. An H9 MC30 would work better with APT since you can target the Brace so you don't have a reduction in your raw damage. Without H9, ACM would be better since your damage will be reduced by Brace, but it's effectively +2 for the sides and may dissuade your opponent from using Redirect so your braced damage goes onto 1 hull.

I think Demo might be the best ACM platform since it can strip most of the shields off a ship by itself, and ACM gets around Brace.

It's my preference to run APT and that comes from experience playing with and against APT. Being able to kill a ship with a single attack is powerful. I also like to drop face ups on ships. IMO, hull damage is better than stripping shields, even though ACM vs APT on a Quasar does show ACM will kill it more consistently than APT.

I was assuming h9 on both sorry.

I'm not saying that apt is bad. It's not it's a great card.

The question was why would you take acm in this situation over apt. The answer is you need less damage.

2 hours ago, geek19 said:

Well I'm trying something even crazier at a store championship this weekend. 2 mc30s, 2 external racks. Crits are for cool kids, more dice is where it's at.

I tried this a couple of weeks ago with 3 MC30T with enhanced armaments and Ackbar. It was nice to roll 11 dice in 1 arc (and 8 additional as an Ackbar slash at one point!) but brace still brought it down massively. Afterwards I came to the conclusion that I would have been better with 2 APT crits on a double-arc shot vs one target rather than the extra 2 black dice on just 1 attack.

3 hours ago, BiggsIRL said:

Motti is a Quasar's best friend.

8 hull puts it right at MC80 card based health, or a non-Motti Victory. Not too shabby for a 60-something point ship pushing 5-6 squadrons.

For a guy we're going to find dead on the floor of his shuttle with a vibro-belt around his neck and his pants around his ankles, he sure does work in a lot of fleets.