One of the problems with bombs, and the Advanced SLAM Miranda bomb shenanigans is that often times when playing with Miranda, you will stumble into a good Cluster Mine or Advanced SLAM Cluster Mine location you didn't plan.

Because you saw where everything moved first, you could make that decision to drop with omniscience.

To me, this feels too much like the Phantom before the nerf. You can kind of just throw down a general purpose maneuver that would work with multiple SLAMs and cover a wide area with bombs almost unavoidably. That's how the Phantom used to be played, you'd put a hard one turn on the dial and then just decloak wherever you wanted.

But what if instead we made players declare their bombs and their bombs after an Advanced SLAM at the start of the activation phase.

"I would like to drop a Cluster Mine after performing an Advanced SLAM provided that I can Advanced SLAM."

"I would like to drop a Thermal Detonator from this ship when it's that ship's turn to activate"

The wording might get clunky with things like Experimental Interface and boost, but I think you understand my idea here.

Maybe the text would read, "Players that wish to declare a bomb drop may do so at the start of the activation phase. Players that wish to declare a bomb drop after a repositioning action or multiple repositioning actions must declare at which point they'll be dropping it".

I just don't like how you can stumble through playing some of these ships and still end up winning. The importance of the planning phase has been continually eroded since wave 4. I think treating bombs like decloak would be a step in the right direction towards correcting that.

Another thing this helps with is if you know a higher PS ship has committed to a bomb drop, you can try to block them and get them to stay in their own blast. Or if an opponent has committed to a bomb after a SLAM, you know that a non-SLAM location is safe.

What this doesn't affect are low PS bombers. One might criticize my idea by saying that it leaves Galaxy Note x7 untouched. I'm okay with that. Bombing isn't a problem when dedicated bomber ships are only good at bombing and nothing else. It's a problem on Miranda and Nym, ships that are good at other things and have bombs also.

This would also be thematic, it would represent the effort that the ship's bombardier or pilot would go through in dropping a bomb, and represent a bomb bay door opening or different types of bombs being selected.

Way too complicated. The decloak change works because you can declare it and execute it at the same time. What happens of I declare it and then forget because I'm flying Miranda against a rebel swarm of five ships that all move before me and they all move? Or if I "forget" it because it's not as advantageous as I thought?

Not only that, but you're changing a pretty widespread game mechanic (bombs) because of one specific card. If Advanced SLAM bomb drops are the problem, then Advanced SLAM can be dealt with directly by restricting it to actions on your action bar, or making it a single use discard card, or any number of things I haven't thought of that are way less complicated than this. You're proposing a sledgehammer fix when the problem needs a scalpel.

30 minutes ago, MacchuWA said:

Way too complicated. The decloak change works because you can declare it and execute it at the same time. What happens of I declare it and then forget because I'm flying Miranda against a rebel swarm of five ships that all move before me and they all move? Or if I "forget" it because it's not as advantageous as I thought?

Not only that, but you're changing a pretty widespread game mechanic (bombs) because of one specific card. If Advanced SLAM bomb drops are the problem, then Advanced SLAM can be dealt with directly by restricting it to actions on your action bar, or making it a single use discard card, or any number of things I haven't thought of that are way less complicated than this. You're proposing a sledgehammer fix when the problem needs a scalpel.

It's not just Cluster Mines. This would also affect normal drop on reveal bombs. It's not only Advanced SLAM I have a problem with, it's having abilities that allow you to react omnisciently and ignore having to plan.

Also, the forgetting thing isn't actually a problem. The same exact thing happens all the time with console fire.

Forget the bombs, the fix (to slam) is simple:

Is like you know.. we need some sort of token assigned to the K-wing at the start of the activation phase, which will signify we ARE GOING TO SLAM and cannot shoot in the combat phase.

2 hours ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

It's not just Cluster Mines . This would also affect normal drop on reveal bombs. It's not only Advanced SLAM I have a problem with, it's having abilities that allow you to react omnisciently and ignore having to plan .

Isn't that basically the fundamental gameplay style of ships like Soontir Fel, Fenn Rau, and most other PS8+ ships in the game? Repositioning?

These ships aren't planning anything ahead of time. They just dial an okay move that lets them not being blocked, and actually complete their movement in the activation phase with boost and barrel roll, after everyone else has moved, with full knowledge of the board, like if they were omniscient.

Is it just that they dislike others using their same cheats? Or having predators?

Your nerf is silly. That would be like calling out for soontir before you reveal your dial which actions you want to do. It destroys the game. Your misconception of alligning this to a phantom is wrong. I am sorry, but it is. The decloak is not an action, does not screw with action economy or anything the like. You cant compare it to something like a slam. It was too strong since it was a huge actionless mobility gain, after everyone had moved. Slam requires an action.

I can feel on the forums you have had some unpleasant experiences with miranda. But honestly, like Azrapse said, it is the benifit you get from having a higher PS than others. What is the point of higher PS, if you can't use it?

Why do you whine about miranda in that context? Slam bombs benifit from moving BEFORE your enemy, not after. Conner nets are much more potent before the enemy move, than after. And the k-wing can so easily be blocked before it moves, making bombs absolete.

My current build of homing/TLT/C3PO/Bomblet/guidance miranda wouldn't care two figs about your 'nerf'. I would just let my homeboy warden wreck their faces with proper slam bombs and just declare bomblet drops in almost every round, and see your salty tears from afar. ;-)

And in accordance to your thematic line of thinking: So what if you 'ready' the bomb chute. Even in old ww2 planes it was possible to open a chute and NOT drop a bomb, if so desired. It can be closed again. I would think that thousands of years into advanced technology they would have the same or more advanced technology on bombing!

The 'effort' of laying a bomb, is represented in that it costs an action to place a bomb. Advance slam, is a modification to the SHIP. Think of it as a modification that allows you to drop accurate bombs in high speeds. Reveal bombs are different, but if you watched the cool bits of Episode 2 with Jango fett and the slave 1, the seismic charges doesn't require that much effort to just throw in a vague direction behind you.

Mostly wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to the problem with Advanced SLAM bombs, which is that quite often absolutely nothign changes about the board state between dials and the ship's activation. Mostly, a K Wing pilot can trivially say I'm going to CLuster Mine that dude next ROUND as long as I'm alive, when the activation phase of the round prior to him dropping the bomb finishes.

In the same way that arcdodgers like Fel or Fenn eat slow clumsy ships (like b-wings) alive, they need to have something that eat them alive. And that is bombs.

They need to realize that the have to fly different when facing one of these bombing ships than when they are bullying b-wings. However, perhaps the autodamage is too much for ships that usually have so few hitpoints.

But in that case, in the same way that they got a buff versus turrets with autothrusters, they could get a different buff with some new card, and it's their choice to bring one or the other.

That would make these squishy ships more resistant to bombs, hitting obstacles, Vader, Sabine, Cad Bane, Seismic Torpedoes, Ruthlessness, Assault Missiles, Black Market Slicing Tools, etc. But not totally resistant. Also, it buffs Palpatine back again. (Somehow, C3PO would also like it)
BUT they need to bring it instead of some other modification (Autothrusters, Stealth Device). So there is a choice and a compromise for the player.

Edit:
I just realized this card would be a great debuff to Twin Laser Turret too!
Edit2:
A Doom shuttle with Electronic Baffle and Vader would love this too...

28 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

In the same way that arcdodgers like Fel or Fenn eat slow clumsy ships (like b-wings) alive, they need to have something that eat them alive. And that is bombs.

They need to realize that the have to fly different when facing one of these bombing ships than when they are bullying b-wings. However, perhaps the autodamage is too much for ships that usually have so few hitpoints.

But in that case, in the same way that they got a buff versus turrets with autothrusters, they could get a different buff with some new card, and it's their choice to bring one or the other.

Particle shields
Modification
When you suffer damage or critical damage as result of a game effect other than an attack, you may roll 1 defense die. On a (evade) result, cancel that damage or critical damage.
Cost 2

That would make these squishy ships more resistant to bombs, hitting obstacles, Vader, Sabine, Cad Bane, Seismic Torpedoes, Ruthlessness, Assault Missiles, Black Market Slicing Tools, etc. But not totally resistant. Also, it buffs Palpatine back again. (Somehow, C3PO would also like it)
BUT they need to bring it instead of some other modification (Autothrusters, Stealth Device). So there is a choice and a compromise for the player.

Edit:
I just realized this card would be a great debuff to Twin Laser Turret too!
Edit2:
A Doom shuttle with Electronic Baffle and Vader would love this too...

Hard counters are bad for the game.

Nonetheless, aces do need counters. These fixes I suggested wouldn't hurt The anti-ace capabilities of bombing ships that much.

I'm not apologist for aces, I hate them. I hate them more than the stupid bomb BS. But you can certainly stumble through games and end up winning with Miranda. Miranda maybe goes a too far with her shenanigans. Not against aces, but against a wide variety of things including aces.

1 hour ago, ModernPenguin said:

And in accordance to your thematic line of thinking: So what if you 'ready' the bomb chute. Even in old ww2 planes it was possible to open a chute and NOT drop a bomb, if so desired. It can be closed again. I would think that thousands of years into advanced technology they would have the same or more advanced technology on bombing!

I think you should watch the movies again because all of this happened 'A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...'

10 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Hard counters are bad for the game.

That's being repeated over and over again, but rarely explained why that should be the case. Hard counters have their niche legitimation, and that's ok.

Besides, the proposed text is not a hard counter because it would counter several different effects from different types of ships and cards.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That's being repeated over and over again, but rarely explained why that should be the case. Hard counters have their niche legitimation, and that's ok.

Besides, the proposed text is not a hard counter because it would counter several different effects from different types of ships and cards.

I was wondering precisely that. How a card that buffs squishy ships versus bombs, obstacles, autodamage crews (Vader), Twin Laser Turret, Ruthlessness... can be considered a hardcounter?

Allow evade tokens to be used against bomb damage.

Job done.

3 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Allow evade tokens to be used against bomb damage.

Job done.

Because aces get their evade tokens at PS2.

Wait.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

Because aces get their evade tokens at PS2.

Wait.

Because PS2 bomb droppers are a massive problem, and PS8-10 Miranda/Nym are not.

...wait.

The biggest problem I see with bombers (particularly ASLAM bombers) is ones with lower PS than the ship they're targetting which can move and drop a bomb without any hidden information. Aside from Comm Relay and Coordinate there aren't any ships which can get evades before they move. EVen with Miranda, against higher PS ships.

Bomblet Generator changes that up a lot, true, and maybe this works well against that.

But it doesn't stop Soontir, on average, dying in a single enemy K Wing's Perform Action step, if he so much as puts a wing into their bombing reach.

PS8 Miranda has exactly the same problem with respect to many PS8 and all PS9 aces.

Maybe a compromise would be 'if you have the evade ACTION in your action bar you may ignore one point of bomb damage' or proper wording to that effect.

My issue with slam, that it is a gimmick, and there is very little counterplay to bombs being dropped ANYWHERE. That cannot be fixed without making it unusable

15 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

My issue with slam, that it is a gimmick, and there is very little counterplay to bombs being dropped ANYWHERE. That cannot be fixed without making it unusable

What do you mean? SLAM was in the lore, this ship had it (or similar, although it was not the only one or the first one), and the application of it to drop bombs is brilliant.

It's an entirely different subject that they overbuffed action bombs with unavoidable damage (Conner Net, Sabine), and recently made instant damage bombs (proton, charges, detonators) being able to effectively being dropped after movement with a 'Havoc' Scurrg with Genius.

Since what is done is done, and they didn't consider the effect of unavoidable damage on weak aces, they have drawn themselves to the corner and now they have to add a way to somehow mitigate that unavoidable damage (and bombs aren't the only effect that deals unavoidable damage and is keeping weak ships out of the game).

TL;DR: Bombs as a mechanic doesn't need to become unusable. Just tone down the unavoidable damage they deal or add a way to mitigate it.

2 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

What do you mean? SLAM was in the lore, this ship had it (or similar, although it was not the only one or the first one), and the application of it to drop bombs is brilliant.

It's an entirely different subject that they overbuffed action bombs with unavoidable damage (Conner Net, Sabine), and recently made instant damage bombs (proton, charges, detonators) being able to effectively being dropped after movement with a 'Havoc' Scurrg with Genius.

Since what is done is done, and they didn't consider the effect of unavoidable damage on weak aces, they have drawn themselves to the corner and now they have to add a way to somehow mitigate that unavoidable damage (and bombs aren't the only effect that deals unavoidable damage and is keeping weak ships out of the game).

TL;DR: Bombs as a mechanic doesn't need to become unusable. Just tone down the unavoidable damage they deal or add a way to mitigate it.

By gimmick I mean its only ever good to drop bombs, but the way it places bombs provides no counterplay

1 minute ago, RufusDaMan said:

By gimmick I mean its only ever good to drop bombs, but the way it places bombs provides no counterplay

I dissent. I have exclusively used lean Miranda without bombs since it came out in wave 7. Just a TLT and some crew (C3PO, Recon Specialist, ...) wearing down your opponent, and getting out of arcs with SLAM when the odds are bad. She was a good late game ace.
It's the profusion of untouchable Fenn Raus and Jumpmasters, along with the release of Sabine crew, that forced people to load Miranda with bombs and conners because it was soon becoming the only way to consistently deal some damage past all the ridiculous defenses those ships were able to pull during a game.