4 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

If TLT had been range 1-2 like everything else in the slot, they'd all be competitive. Or even range 3 only, with a 1-2 donut hole.

I love this idea, specifically the one about TLT being only Range 3. Or maybe possibly just R2.

I don't like playing against TLT, but I deal with it. I don't typically field it because I don't feel there's much sportsmanship in it outside of limiting myself to one in a list.

That's the crux of it for me: it doesn't feel very sporting to have such consistency on an attack that doesn't depend on keeping the enemy in arc and has greater range than the other turrets available. It far outclasses the other turrets, can we agree on that?

There are other upgrades and pilots that don't feel sporting either, but most of us just deal with it.

9 hours ago, Velvetelvis said:

Once...in the past....the x wing community was spoken of highly.

In the past.

I thought X-wing community was the best in any game I've played while I was reddit-only. It's a great place there, just not as active as this.

But I wanted MORE discussion... So I joined this forum, and now it starts to look like other games communities.

So just bought 4 TIE Aggressors... Guess what I am going to fly ;-D ;-D ;-D

13 minutes ago, Chibi-Nya said:

I thought X-wing community was the best in any game I've played while I was reddit-only. It's a great place there, just not as active as this.

But I wanted MORE discussion... So I joined this forum, and now it starts to look like other games communities.

I'd recommend you make use of the block feature. I'd argue that there are a couple of purely volatile posters (every post has a mild coating of toxicity), a couple more that will argue any point for the sake of arguing (I'd argue that I fall under this category), and some honest-to-goodness helpful players that only have interest in progressing the game/community.

Also, once a post starts going into a back and forth and seems to be purely opinion based on at least one side of the discussion, feel free to start ignoring that post and assume it's closed. It isn't going to get better, and you'll often be happier for not participating.

Unless you have a bag of popcorn handy, then by all means, read along.

The overall X-Wing community is still great. The long time staples of the community that are still here are still great. The internet, however, is full of trolls and other creatures, and is a terrible example of what a community has to offer. The forums have pretty much always been volatile around new releases, for example.

4 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

As a rule, if you're asking for advice:

• Say what ships or upgrades are causing you trouble
• Also say what squad you're using
• If responding, try to suggest actual tactics as well as/rather than changing a list. You can win with tactics, not just rebuilding your list.

Hence why I'm asking what @Velvetelvis is using. He's clearly facing spammed twin laser turrets, but I don't know what with, so I can't offer any especially useful advice.

Twin Laser Turret, by itself, isn't an issue. It does eat a lot of time, I'll grant (which is a shame) but it's not horrifically overpowered. It does require some decent flying to actually be able to concentrate enough fire on a target to matter. The fact that I'm only aware of two players managing to do well with them at major national-level tournaments, but that they did, suggests there's a lot more than just dice efficiency.

There are two archetypes which really matter for twin laser turret - "Spam" - 4 x twin laser turret on Y-wings/aggressors/hwks or a twin laser turret paired with accuracy corrector on a ghost or havoc.

The former is beatable; logically it must be because it has never won a major national tournament. But it takes a bit of planning to beat; frankly a lot of people like to build squads around card-effect-interactions on 2-3 big ships and aces and forget to actually bring enough raw dice and hit points. Blowing away a Y-wing before it fires is doable; and that cuts the rate at which a squad can throw out damage a lot.

I don't find facing it, personally, a negative play experience. More than anything, it feels like WWII interceptors trying to break into a B-52 block, and is actually an interesting challenge. Bear in mind that the whole point of twin laser turret is to favour raw stats and any 'whenever defending' abilities over once per turn abilities and tokens; so, for example, a barrel roll that prevents one or more ships firing on you is actually a better choice, a lot of the time, than a focus/evade token.

I doubt I'd find using it enjoyable, but then I don't like unwieldy turret ships. The person who's using it, obviously does (or they wouldn't be using it!).

I've only faced the a/c tlt once - it was nasty, but not too bad; because two non-critical 'chip damage' is not really that bad in the grand scheme of things - and I don't really have strong feelings about it yet, but it doesn't feel massively worse than the uber-modified 3-dice primary turrets ships like that often have; in the game against Nym and Dash, dash's HLC turret felt much scarier than nym's TLT.

What do you see as "easy mode" flying?

Easy mode would be having a turret and doing nothing except out dicing your opponent. Flying wherever you want and always having a shot.

Quad TLT is no longer competitive IMO. It's Kanan Biggs and Miranda that are the problems.

4 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

The Aggressor may be agility 3 but its dial is not amazing - it's basically a Y-wing with no red straight but no green turns from R2 astromech/unhinged astromech.

Barrel roll makes quite a difference, too, but between the option of barrel roll and its reliance on green dice and flimsy hull (compared to a Y-wing, anyway!) it's likely to be throwing unmodified shots far more often.

4 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

The Aggressor may be agility 3 but its dial is not amazing - it's basically a Y-wing with no red straight but no green turns from R2 astromech/unhinged astromech.

Barrel roll makes quite a difference, too, but between the option of barrel roll and its reliance on green dice and flimsy hull (compared to a Y-wing, anyway!) it's likely to be throwing unmodified shots far more often.

1.) It doesn't have green turns. Unbelievable. The thing has a dial that's already pretty decent for a non-turret ship, except it can carry TLT.

2.) It has an EPT. Even Trickshot is annoying on a TLT ship. It can take Lone Wolf. It always has dice mods.

40 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

I'd recommend you make use of the block feature.

I need to try that... Those moments when you miss the downvote button... Paragoombaslayer is so far in the red over on reddit that always know what to expect. But him being back here really made the forums worse again

4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I need to try that... Those moments when you miss the downvote button... Paragoombaslayer is so far in the red over on reddit that always know what to expect. But him being back here really made the forums worse again

Because the best way to get to the truth is to treat it like a popularity contest and ignore those that disagree with you, right?

1 minute ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Because the best way to get to the truth is to treat it like a popularity contest and ignore those that disagree with you, right?

Maybe there are other sources for the truth?

sources that are both right and reasonable enough to maintain meaningful discussion?

sometimes people grow up to realize that the way they present themselves makes them more or less approachable, and one has major advantages

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

Maybe there are other sources for the truth?

sources that are both right and reasonable enough to maintain meaningful discussion?

sometimes people grow up to realize that the way they present themselves makes them more or less approachable, and one has major advantages

That has no bearing on the truth of an argument. Especially around here.

Complaining about anything at all is seen as being unapproachable by default.

So...I guess...a good community is blaming about a card/ship/equip/mechanic, and spend a lot of posts between:

1) create homerules

2) just blame it

But when someone say that "there's a way to counter *it*", that becomes a bad community, trash talking, waste of time etc etc...

I can't get this. I would love yo see more tactics and less homerules or blaming. Almost the last. But seems to me that it is acceptable and even encourage it.

I really can't get it. So sorry for all, and oh ***, let's say me too"TLT is imba"!

21 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Because the best way to get to the truth is to treat it like a popularity contest and ignore those that disagree with you, right?

If I made use of the block list, you'd be number one on it. Although, I will say you're a poor man's PGS. You rely far too heavily on hyperbole and straw man arguments (like this lovely quoted zinger).

Fortunately, I like salt just fine.

I "Blame Canada" for tlt's.

28 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

That has no bearing on the truth of an argument. Especially around here.

Complaining about anything at all is seen as being unapproachable by default.

No but the truth ain't all that usefull if nobody is listening, is it?

And there's a wide range from constructive criticism past unconstructive complaints all the way down to the trolling that you provide us with.

1 hour ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

a couple more that will argue any point for the sake of arguing (I'd argue that I fall under this category),

I'd argue against that.

The problem isn't with TLTs specifically. Its that ''out of arc'' attacks are too powerful. Both primary weapon turrets and secondary weapon turrets.

They should probably add a new basic rule that applies a small penalty to attacks out of arc. Either defender gains +1 agility or attacker can only change 1eyeball into a hit.

#makearcsgreatagain

30 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

The problem isn't with TLTs specifically. Its that ''out of arc'' attacks are too powerful. Both primary weapon turrets and secondary weapon turrets.

They should probably add a new basic rule that applies a small penalty to attacks out of arc. Either defender gains +1 agility or attacker can only change 1eyeball into a hit.

#makearcsgreatagain

I smell those Autothrusters that make turrets manageable. Shame only a few ships can use them.

1 hour ago, Cerve said:

So...I guess...a good community is blaming about a card/ship/equip/mechanic, and spend a lot of posts between:

1) create homerules

2) just blame it

But when someone say that "there's a way to counter *it*", that becomes a bad community, trash talking, waste of time etc etc...

I can't get this. I would love yo see more tactics and less homerules or blaming. Almost the last. But seems to me that it is acceptable and even encourage it.

I really can't get it. So sorry for all, and oh ***, let's say me too"TLT is imba"!

I think part of the issue is tactics and strategy are actually really, really difficult to discuss in a format like this. Every match up is going to be different, and it's impossible to just list 100 different situations and have the content be readable and managable. And whether we like to accept it or not, players largely really don't care to discuss tactics because you can only talk about "how do I beat jumpmasters/mindlink/TLT?" so much before it bores you to death. The universal tactical conversation, such as formation flying and rock placement, is few, but has already seen strong content posted.

I'd also wager that 95% of the content on here is provided by players who largely have very little tactical advice to give, or if they do give it, it is either poor, or it is "fly this! That'll beat it!".

Discussing the game and your experience with it, as well as the direction you would like it to go in the future, is much more simplistic. Everyone has an opinion, but not everyone has advice.

5 minutes ago, Chibi-Nya said:

I smell those Autothrusters that make turrets manageable. Shame only a few ships can use them.

Autothrusters is one of my least favorite upgrades. It essentially took away the modification slot on every 3 agility ship with boost and replaced it with autothrusters text. Unfortunate that FFG decided they would add an auto include upgrade which neutered list building, instead of just making a change to the mechanic the card was meant to counter.

they should have just made turrets not like firing out of arc instead of attempt to curb their power through other upgrades.
I.e. "If the target is out of arc, roll 1 less die"
Some turrets would have been priced differently or have different attack values if that was the case, but largely atm that would solve the issue. 2die TLTs is not anywhere near as big a threat.
I dont like autos either. For one it doesnt help the majority of ships that actually need the help and its almost a worthless upgrade on 1/2 agi ships while being an autoinclude on 3agi.

The main problem is. FFG needs to make a ruling. Secondary weapons give range modifications. That'll fix a lot.

14 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

they should have just made turrets not like firing out of arc instead of attempt to curb their power through other upgrades.
I.e. "If the target is out of arc, roll 1 less die"
Some turrets would have been priced differently or have different attack values if that was the case, but largely atm that would solve the issue. 2die TLTs is not anywhere near as big a threat.
I dont like autos either. For one it doesnt help the majority of ships that actually need the help and its almost a worthless upgrade on 1/2 agi ships while being an autoinclude on 3agi.

I think it would largely suffice to say "an attack outside an arc increases the defenders agility value by one."

18 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

I think it would largely suffice to say "an attack outside an arc increases the defenders agility value by one."

An increase of 1 agility, baring mods, is not quite as powerful. I'm for @Chibi-Nya 's idea of making AT a universal rule change, ban the AT card, free up mods again like you mentioned.

Turrets everywhere get encouraged to fight in arc, requiring a bit more "skill".

World Peace at last.

Well, maybe some fun X-Wing games.

A red is more reliable than a green, this is why Trickshot is actually a favorable trade for the attacker.

12 hours ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Complete bull.

The complainers want the game to be more fun. Why else would they complain?

TLT isn't very fun. It's not engaging to use, it's not engaging to fly against. It promotes lazy, easy mode flying.

But of course, this a nuanced position, which X-Wing players are largely incapable of holding. When you say that complainers want the game to be less negative and that's why they complain, the X-Wing community can only shout, "But complainers complain and complaining is negative! Nothing ever needs to be improved about the game, the sky is not falling just get better!"

Nope. Complainers want the game to be the way *they* want it, according to *their* style of play and *their* idea of what is fun. They don't seem able to accept that there could be alternate opinions, and when people come back with reasons why there isn't a problem, they then complain some more.

Like is happening in this thread.

RoV