13 minutes ago, Cerve said:

No way. The complainers.....well, complain.

Who want's improve himself, just complain himself. Never the game.

Complete bull.

The complainers want the game to be more fun. Why else would they complain?

TLT isn't very fun. It's not engaging to use, it's not engaging to fly against. It promotes lazy, easy mode flying.

But of course, this a nuanced position, which X-Wing players are largely incapable of holding. When you say that complainers want the game to be less negative and that's why they complain, the X-Wing community can only shout, "But complainers complain and complaining is negative! Nothing ever needs to be improved about the game, the sky is not falling just get better!"

27 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Playing X-Wing is fine, I meet plenty of great people.

The people that complain about complainers end up spreading more negativity than the complainers. Complainers otherwise like the game and want it improved and that's why they complain.

The anti-complainers end up stubbornly defending negative play experiences and telling complainers to just shut up and get good.

That's much more negative than pointing out how much of a Negative Playing Experience this game can be sometimes and wishing it wasn't that way.

There's too many people with agendas ready to twist anything into an argument, so almost any x-wing conversation inevitably turns into an acrimonious slanging match.

As a rule, if you're asking for advice:

• Say what ships or upgrades are causing you trouble
• Also say what squad you're using
• If responding, try to suggest actual tactics as well as/rather than changing a list. You can win with tactics, not just rebuilding your list.

Hence why I'm asking what @Velvetelvis is using. He's clearly facing spammed twin laser turrets, but I don't know what with, so I can't offer any especially useful advice.

Twin Laser Turret, by itself, isn't an issue. It does eat a lot of time, I'll grant (which is a shame) but it's not horrifically overpowered. It does require some decent flying to actually be able to concentrate enough fire on a target to matter. The fact that I'm only aware of two players managing to do well with them at major national-level tournaments, but that they did, suggests there's a lot more than just dice efficiency.

There are two archetypes which really matter for twin laser turret - "Spam" - 4 x twin laser turret on Y-wings/aggressors/hwks or a twin laser turret paired with accuracy corrector on a ghost or havoc.

The former is beatable; logically it must be because it has never won a major national tournament. But it takes a bit of planning to beat; frankly a lot of people like to build squads around card-effect-interactions on 2-3 big ships and aces and forget to actually bring enough raw dice and hit points. Blowing away a Y-wing before it fires is doable; and that cuts the rate at which a squad can throw out damage a lot.

I don't find facing it, personally, a negative play experience. More than anything, it feels like WWII interceptors trying to break into a B-52 block, and is actually an interesting challenge. Bear in mind that the whole point of twin laser turret is to favour raw stats and any 'whenever defending' abilities over once per turn abilities and tokens; so, for example, a barrel roll that prevents one or more ships firing on you is actually a better choice, a lot of the time, than a focus/evade token.

I doubt I'd find using it enjoyable, but then I don't like unwieldy turret ships. The person who's using it, obviously does (or they wouldn't be using it!).

I've only faced the a/c tlt once - it was nasty, but not too bad; because two non-critical 'chip damage' is not really that bad in the grand scheme of things - and I don't really have strong feelings about it yet, but it doesn't feel massively worse than the uber-modified 3-dice primary turrets ships like that often have; in the game against Nym and Dash, dash's HLC turret felt much scarier than nym's TLT.

23 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

It promotes lazy, easy mode flying.

What do you see as "easy mode" flying?

10 hours ago, Velvetelvis said:

Well, this whole idea of diving into range one is not exactly easy. Or really even possible.

I've never seen anyone run them so close together that that is an option.

You can get one ship into one of their bubbles....probably blocked there more than likely ...and the other three pass you around like the school tramp.

Okay; but if people are keeping their 4 twin laser turret ships spread out (such that you can only be in range 1 of 1 of them), then they must also be spread out enough that it must be possible to be in range of only 1-2 of them.

"Dive into range 1" is not the way to beat twin laser turrets; the way to beat them is "make sure only a maximum of 2 of them can concentrate their fire on any one of your ships" - if that's by being at range 1, fine, if it's by being at range 3 of one ship and range >3 of the others, that works too. So does PS-killing one of them, so does preventing one of them firing (by using Kylo ren to deliver a blinded pilot critical, for example).

2 hours ago, SOTL said:

Fair to say the X-Wing community is definitely a repellent factor these days. There's nowhere to talk about X-Wing, or go to play X-Wing, that isn't a toxic mess of horrible people.

Squadbuilding and customization forums are slow, but pretty happy places. Its when you move to the larger picture that things get ugly.

TLT removes practically all game variety in the turret slot. It must be nerfed to promote other turrets usage/configurations.

With the red dice power creep, TLTs are no longer needed to keep fat big ships in check.

TLTs were introduced for the greater good, and now they must die for the same greater good.

I suspect you'll find Synched Turret has the potential to give it a good showing on higher PS ships and those with decent upgrade bars, and autoblaster turret also puts up a decent fight.

25 minutes ago, Jehan Menasis said:

TLT removes practically all game variety in the turret slot. It must be nerfed to promote other turrets usage/configurations..

If you nerf TLT, what makes you think you will see 'variety in the turret slot' instead of 'nothing in the turret slot'?

Apart from niche stuff like ABT, which turrets would you consider competitive currently ?

5 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

If you nerf TLT, what makes you think you will see 'variety in the turret slot' instead of 'nothing in the turret slot'?

Apart from niche stuff like ABT, which turrets would you consider competitive currently ?

It's only Blaster that's actively horrible. All the rest are pretty fine, just so much worse than TLT it's not funny.

If TLT had been range 1-2 like everything else in the slot, they'd all be competitive. Or even range 3 only, with a 1-2 donut hole.

10 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's only Blaster that's actively horrible. All the rest are pretty fine, just so much worse than TLT it's not funny.

If TLT had been range 1-2 like everything else in the slot, they'd all be competitive. Or even range 3 only, with a 1-2 donut hole.

They're also much worse thanany things in the game too.How many people were fielding any turrets before TLT?

I honestly can't recall anything but stresshogs or ABT.

Look at ships that currently use TLT, and how they would fare without:

-Fat Ghosts. What would you put here instead of TLT?

- K-wings: apart from niche uses of ABT I see no reason to pay 4-5 points for a synced/Ion turret over its own PWT.

-Y-wings. Without TLT I don't think generic Y-wings are efficient enough to bring them anymore, niche builds (like Blair's rebel jank) excluded

-Hwk's: these are the only ships I think would get other turrets, as people mainly take them for abilities, and 1 attack is THAT bad.

2 hours ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Complete bull.

The complainers want the game to be more fun. Why else would they complain?

TLT isn't very fun. It's not engaging to use, it's not engaging to fly against. It promotes lazy, easy mode flying.

But of course, this a nuanced position, which X-Wing players are largely incapable of holding. When you say that complainers want the game to be less negative and that's why they complain, the X-Wing community can only shout, "But complainers complain and complaining is negative! Nothing ever needs to be improved about the game, the sky is not falling just get better!"

No. They found TLTs boring just because they don't know how to fly against it. Because they saw their precious ships gone in flame without nothing to do....they think.

Because play any TLT list agains someone who actually know how to engage them is way more fun. The game becomes a challenge for both, the fun improves.

If I got shredded against a TLT list I will never blame the card, nor the game. I will blame myself for that. That push me to find a way to fight against it. That push me to improve myself. That push me to learn how to fly, to play better. I don't know just 1 good player in any game that passed his time to blame the game itself.

TLT is not boring. That becomes boring only if you don't know how to play against it, OR if you fly it and your opponent doesn't know how to fly it. That's all.

And no, I'm not bully. I'm just one that prefer play, more than blame.

3 minutes ago, Cerve said:

No. They found TLTs boring just because they don't know how to fly against it. Because they saw their precious ships gone in flame without nothing to do....they think.

Because play any TLT list agains someone who actually know how to engage them is way more fun. The game becomes a challenge for both, the fun improves.

If I got shredded against a TLT list I will never blame the card, nor the game. I will blame myself for that. That push me to find a way to fight against it. That push me to improve myself. That push me to learn how to fly, to play better. I don't know just 1 good player in any game that passed his time to blame the game itself.

TLT is not boring. That becomes boring only if you don't know how to play against it, OR if you fly it and your opponent doesn't know how to fly it. That's all.

And no, I'm not bully. I'm just one that prefer play, more than blame.

No, TLT is boring. Not all game mechanics are created equal, and TLT was created boring and awful. Two years later it's still boring and awful and will never be anything but boring and awful.

It's not about if you won or lose against TLT. It's not about whether you know how to fly against it or not (I do, fwiw, and I still recognise it's a boring and awful mechanic and just because I beat it like 90% of the time doesn't make it any less boring and awful).

The good thing about it is that most ships with turrets have less than superior dials. That makes it possible to stay out of range and pounce singled out targets. It isn't easy, but when enough thought is put in, it is usually possible to outfly turret ships. This, and TLT's inability to crit, is why list-tayloring is not yet necessary.

Let's just hope that doesn't change with LWF Aggressors ...

4 minutes ago, DampfGecko said:

The good thing about it is that most ships with turrets have less than superior dials. That makes it possible to stay out of range and pounce singled out targets. It isn't easy, but when enough thought is put in, it is usually possible to outfly turret ships. This, and TLT's inability to crit, is why list-tayloring is not yet necessary.

Let's just hope that doesn't change with LWF Aggressors ...

The Aggressor may be agility 3 but its dial is not amazing - it's basically a Y-wing with no red straight but no green turns from R2 astromech/unhinged astromech.

Barrel roll makes quite a difference, too, but between the option of barrel roll and its reliance on green dice and flimsy hull (compared to a Y-wing, anyway!) it's likely to be throwing unmodified shots far more often.

1 minute ago, Magnus Grendel said:

The Aggressor may be agility 3 but its dial is not amazing - it's basically a Y-wing with no red straight but no green turns from R2 astromech/unhinged astromech.

Barrel roll makes quite a difference, too, but between the option of barrel roll and its reliance on green dice and flimsy hull (compared to a Y-wing, anyway!) it's likely to be throwing unmodified shots far more often.

Full stop. Couldn't agree more.

4 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

The Aggressor may be agility 3 but its dial is not amazing - it's basically a Y-wing with no red straight but no green turns from R2 astromech/unhinged astromech.

Barrel roll makes quite a difference, too, but between the option of barrel roll and its reliance on green dice and flimsy hull (compared to a Y-wing, anyway!) it's likely to be throwing unmodified shots far more often.

Yup.

I one shotted an Aggressor yesterday trying out Cruise Missiles. Can't do that to a Y Wing. Well, technically, you COULD do that to a Y Wing but it would be VERY unlikely, and involve either N'Dru or TWO Major Explosion>Direct Hits.

Quad TLT Aggressors are no better than Quad TLT Y-Wings, arguably a bit worse.

You'll see them more because Y-Wings are in such short supply some people haven't been able to play Quad Y. You'll see them more in the short term because people think they must be better. Medium term they'll die off though and leave people with 3 or 4 TIE Aggressors sat on a shelf gathering dust.

the people saying if you lose to 4tlt still you are a terrible player are ignorant and blind.

1) This is a dice game. No matter how amazing you fly, 4TLTs will always have 2-3 that can shoot you and even lower than average dice from them will hit you. While your lower than average dice takes 4-6 rounds of attacks to take out a single Ywing.

2) Ever stop to think that your opponent is a better flier than you and suspects you know how to "fight TLT Ywings" and moves in a completely different manner?

Nothing in this game is a vacuum. Hell at a store champ in Sparta Games (Omaha, Nebraska), out of 44 people a freakin WOOKIE SHIP + Rey took 1st out of the top 8 (i wasnt around to see the final fights). Dont assume that since its not JM5Ks, Protectorates, Lancers, Reyfalcon, Miranda, Biggs, Backdraft, Quickdraw, or Poe that its not viable and automatically fails when facing said ships/pilots.

1 hour ago, SOTL said:

No, TLT is boring. Not all game mechanics are created equal, and TLT was created boring and awful. Two years later it's still boring and awful and will never be anything but boring and awful.

It's not about if you won or lose against TLT. It's not about whether you know how to fly against it or not (I do, fwiw, and I still recognise it's a boring and awful mechanic and just because I beat it like 90% of the time doesn't make it any less boring and awful).

And that's totally a personal taste.

1 hour ago, Vineheart01 said:

the people saying if you lose to 4tlt still you are a terrible player are ignorant and blind.

1) This is a dice game. No matter how amazing you fly, 4TLTs will always have 2-3 that can shoot you and even lower than average dice from them will hit you. While your lower than average dice takes 4-6 rounds of attacks to take out a single Ywing.

In fact, no. You know that TLTs doing 2 dmg at maximum of their fire power.

So you know that 4 TLTs are 8 dmg each round.

And you know that in range 1 they cannot shoot.

And you know too that normally any TLT has 8hp 1agi, or 5hp 3agi.

So you can math about take off one of them in alpha strike, or how many dice you can prevent by flying in range1.And that's not statistic, it's a fact, because you're considering the maximum dmg, not the medium one. 4 TLTs will never bring out more than 8 dmg on you each turn. And when you have concretes imput, you can plan a concrete strategy.

Saying "it's a dice game" is totally naive for me.

7 minutes ago, Cerve said:

And that's totally a personal taste.

Well, no, objectively it's a bad mechanic as well.

1 hour ago, Vineheart01 said:

the people saying if you lose to 4tlt still you are a terrible player are ignorant and blind.

1) This is a dice game. No matter how amazing you fly, 4TLTs will always have 2-3 that can shoot you and even lower than average dice from them will hit you. While your lower than average dice takes 4-6 rounds of attacks to take out a single Ywing.

2) Ever stop to think that your opponent is a better flier than you and suspects you know how to "fight TLT Ywings" and moves in a completely different manner?

Nothing in this game is a vacuum. Hell at a store champ in Sparta Games (Omaha, Nebraska), out of 44 people a freakin WOOKIE SHIP + Rey took 1st out of the top 8 (i wasnt around to see the final fights). Dont assume that since its not JM5Ks, Protectorates, Lancers, Reyfalcon, Miranda, Biggs, Backdraft, Quickdraw, or Poe that its not viable and automatically fails when facing said ships/pilots.

Depends on the matchup. But I'm certainly not suggesting losing to Twin Laser Turrets makes you a terrible player.

I'd agree that 'clever manoeuvring' realistically means 2 out of 4 Y-wings are able to fire on you. As to "even lower than average dice will hit" - that's very matchup specific. TIE interceptors or TIE advanced prototypes with Autothrusters and no tokens whatsoever, for example, can easily take 4 TLT shots and expect to be hit once, if at all.

I will accept that an agility 1 target can expect to be hit twice.....but then a 3-dice attack would expect to land a couple of hits, too.

Requiring 5 attacks to kill a Y-wing seems a bit over the top to me, though; especially if you can get any range 1 shots. Range 1 attacks, and there are a sizeable amount of non-ordnance red dice slingers out there (Swarm Leader Jess Pava, Fenn Rau, Norra Wexley, etc) who can easily half-kill a Y-wing on their tod.

2 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Well, no, objectively it's a bad mechanic as well.

Why do you see it as a bad mechanic?

The average ship has 6-8 hull.... no more than 8 damage? seriously? you act like thats a bad number.

And who uses Interceptors anymore? Besides that falls under what i mentioned in my first post that the few ships that TLTs typically have a hard time hitting are so low on HP it doesnt matter. Soontir will probably dodge more than half of the 8 TLT shots guaranteed, but it only takes 3 successful ones to take him out. They may not kill him in a single round, but i'd be surprised if he took 0 damage from all 8 shots. Number of attacks has always been the best way to bust his green dice defense, palp around or not.

Everything in X-Wing involves positioning to some extent but TLT involves positioning less than almost anything. Range 2-3 and 360 degrees covers a huge area of table and removes a lot of the 'skill' from positioning. That TLT is a secondary weapon and the opponent doesn't benefit from an additional R3 dice also removes some of the complexity from positioning and reduces all the decisions a TLT players has to make "how do I keep you away from R1". Note this doesn't mean I'm saying TLT requires no skill - I've played against some very good TLT players and seen how well they fly to achieve that goal - but I'm saying it REDUCES the amount of skill required. In terms of raw amount of table covered and the absence of combat modifiers it's objectively reducing opportunities for player skill to make difference.

Everything in X-Wing involves an element of variance, which introduces both excitement and skill into the game because you have to factor the risks of potentially very bad things happening to you. TLT strips the game of most of this because with multiple low-value attacks it's a very low variance weapon to use. Variance is good, it makes things interesting. Variance on attack dice forces skill-based decisions like "I didn't going to spend a focus but at the moment this would push a crit through my shield so maybe I have to". TLT never forces those tough decisions because it's brainless and reduces all the variance and possible outcomes from launching an attack to "do I take a damage". That's also objectively reducing decisions and removing an opportunity for player skill to make a difference.

X-Wing is a game of positioning, variance, and risk/reward calculations. TLT materially reduces the opportunity for all three of those factors.

Also: it's boring and awful.

Anyway I'm getting dragged into another shitfest. Do whatever you want.

27 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Everything in X-Wing involves positioning to some extent but TLT involves positioning less than almost anything. Range 2-3 and 360 degrees covers a huge area of table and removes a lot of the 'skill' from positioning. That TLT is a secondary weapon and the opponent doesn't benefit from an additional R3 dice also removes some of the complexity from positioning and reduces all the decisions a TLT players has to make "how do I keep you away from R1". Note this doesn't mean I'm saying TLT requires no skill - I've played against some very good TLT players and seen how well they fly to achieve that goal - but I'm saying it REDUCES the amount of skill required. In terms of raw amount of table covered and the absence of combat modifiers it's objectively reducing opportunities for player skill to make difference.

Everything in X-Wing involves an element of variance, which introduces both excitement and skill into the game because you have to factor the risks of potentially very bad things happening to you. TLT strips the game of most of this because with multiple low-value attacks it's a very low variance weapon to use. Variance is good, it makes things interesting. Variance on attack dice forces skill-based decisions like "I didn't going to spend a focus but at the moment this would push a crit through my shield so maybe I have to". TLT never forces those tough decisions because it's brainless and reduces all the variance and possible outcomes from launching an attack to "do I take a damage". That's also objectively reducing decisions and removing an opportunity for player skill to make a difference.

X-Wing is a game of positioning, variance, and risk/reward calculations. TLT materially reduces the opportunity for all three of those factors.

Also: it's boring and awful.

Anyway I'm getting dragged into another shitfest. Do whatever you want.

I think you may be oversimplifying X-Wing mechanically. Certainly those are huge mechanical underpinnings of the game, but other mechanics have consistently sought to reduce variance and increase control of positioning outside of your maneuver. It is unfortunate that you do not like TLTs impact on the game. Games are about having fun, and if you are not having fun due to TLT that is a shame.

I do want to point out that TLT does two interesting things mechanically.

TLT represents an accurate, but low damage attack. Typically, accuracy and damage are inextricably in X-Wing. TLT offers a different type of weapon, and that is interesting.

TLT also offers the games most clear example of steady damage over time. TLTs are attrition weapons, a polar opposite of the high spike damage and limited use ordnance. Again, I find the inclusion of both attrition and spike damage options in secondary weapons to be interesting.

I am not saying everyone will or should enjoy TLT being part of X-Wing. I am saying, there are reasons to see TLT as providing interesting mechanical additions to the game. This additions may well be appealing to some players.

I LOVE MY Y-WINGS...

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