If there's three or four TLT across the table then I guess congratulations...you're the best at x wing.

Wait...crap...wrong game.

Twin Laser Turret?

More like Takes Skill Turret.

The point at which TLT got stupid was when it transitioned from being a counter to fat turrets, to being the weapon of choice of fat turrets.

Another contributing factor is bombs becoming very competitive, which is a significant buff for Miranda and apparently Fat Nyms. Rather hard to just, 'git gud' and close to range one when you have to deal with (inifinite) bombs and getting slammed and bombed.

So bombs cover up TLT's weaknesses real well. Those would be punching through token stacking Autothrusters aces, and covering the range one vulnerability.

Miranda + TLT with Nym + TLT, both with bombs and missiles, is flat out nasty, I can attest.

Beatable, but nasty.

TLT needs another point (or two) added to its price; Miranda's pilot ability should be primary weapon only IMO.

Well, this whole idea of diving into range one is not exactly easy. Or really even possible.

I've never seen anyone run them so close together that that is an option.

You can get one ship into one of their bubbles....probably blocked there more than likely ...and the other three pass you around like the school tramp.

6 minutes ago, Velvetelvis said:

Well, this whole idea of diving into range one is not exactly easy. Or really even possible.

I've never seen anyone run them so close together that that is an option.

You can get one ship into one of their bubbles....probably blocked there more than likely ...and the other three pass you around like the school tramp.

Okay...I have to steal that line from you. It's genius.

TLT are a lazy X winger's crutch.

Sigh. Didn't we already have these tears when the K-Wing first came out? And then most people realised skillful flying can beat them just like any other list?

RoV

TLT is way undercosted and FFG doesnt fixed printed costs. So we are stuck. TLT should be around 10pts and would still see mad play, but at least you NEVER have to worry about 4 in a list.

36 minutes ago, Rat of Vengence said:

Sigh. Didn't we already have these tears when the K-Wing first came out? And then most people realised skillful flying can beat them just like any other list?

RoV

Not really.

Sure, Miranda was used as another stupid regen ship, but it wasn't until well after wave 8's release that 48 point Miranda with bombs became a meta force. Sabine crew is a wave 8 card and it wasn't really figured out/put on the table until well after Deadeye torp scouts were gone from the meta.

In a wave 7 context, Miranda with TLT and C-3PO was annoying, sure, but not much different from Soontir, Corran, or Poe. Just your average, everyday Cancerwing.

30 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Not really.

Sure, Miranda was used as another stupid regen ship, but it wasn't until well after wave 8's release that 48 point Miranda with bombs became a meta force. Sabine crew is a wave 8 card and it wasn't really figured out/put on the table until well after Deadeye torp scouts were gone from the meta.

In a wave 7 context, Miranda with TLT and C-3PO was annoying, sure, but not much different from Soontir, Corran, or Poe. Just your average, everyday Cancerwing.

Yes, it's a different set up now, but we had the same complaints with 4 TLT Y-Wings, and people complaining they couldn't be beat. We just need to work tactics for the new builds, which as you say are quite a force.

But still beatable by a well flown squad.

RoV

Biggest thing i hate about TLTs is its more of a timer than anything else.

TLTs wont kill you uber fast, but if you wiff more than a couple of attacks they win. In the 4Ywing TLT list, they tend to miss 1-2 of the 8 shots unless its a high agi autos user (even then they still kill them quick since theyre also low HP and with 8 shots coming in, eventually it gets through).
They rarely miss even half as often as they shoot. If you dont manage to remove some of them fast, you lose. I've never seen a list with more than 1 TLT ever go through a "I CANT HIT A DANG THING" phase...ever...lower than average but not a complete whiff like a lot of heavy-hitting lists tend to do somethings (seeing Fenn solid blank out on a 5die attack is both hilarious and disheartening)

I was not on this train until my tournament yesterday, but I actually think the "you may only have 2 copies of TLT in your list" is the answer. I feel like that allows a player to deal with TLT in a manner that leaves it capable of being deadly in the right hands, but manageable for players with strong target priority capabilities.

5 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

I was not on this train until my tournament yesterday, but I actually think the "you may only have 2 copies of TLT in your list" is the answer. I feel like that allows a player to deal with TLT in a manner that leaves it capable of being deadly in the right hands, but manageable for players with strong target priority capabilities.

What top tier squads have more than one, maybe 2 TLT upgrades in them?

19 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

What top tier squads have more than one, maybe 2 TLT upgrades in them?

Only TLT spam, but that's kind of the point. The ships that are issues with it are what? Miranda? This seems to indicate to me the problem is her, not TLT.

11 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

Only TLT spam, but that's kind of the point. The ships that are issues with it are what? Miranda? This seems to indicate to me the problem is her, not TLT.

Quad TLT isn't competitive anymore.

Also, Kanan Biggs.

14 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

Only TLT spam, but that's kind of the point. The ships that are issues with it are what? Miranda? This seems to indicate to me the problem is her, not TLT.

I'm eagerly watching and waiting to see what your next post is going to be @Kdubb

Congrats in advance for 3,000 posts

If a well flown list can beat it...is another way of saying....if you didn't bring at least three torpedoes or missles and shoot first....I guess.

11 minutes ago, Velvetelvis said:

If a well flown list can beat it...is another way of saying....if you didn't bring at least three torpedoes or missles and shoot first....I guess.

Not at all. If that was the case it would be "If you bring a list tailored to beat it..."

But you don't need to. Obviously we all try to take a list that can handle the local meta, but it's always a gamble what you'll face anyway

RoV

18 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Quad TLT isn't competitive anymore.

Also, Kanan Biggs.

It's competitive. It just isn't seen because most people find it incredibly dull to fly and to play against. If you don't believe me I'd advise you to go take it for a spin, but I'm not going to do that because that would be probably a rather dull game of xwing for you and your opponent.

Kanan Biggs is really good, but I don't see it as a major issue build. Also, Biggs is the issue there, not Kanan.

17 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

I'm eagerly watching and waiting to see what your next post is going to be @Kdubb

Congrats in advance for 3,000 posts

Heh more of the same. Sorry to disappoint!

Yea I think two TLT ships is the worst to face. Spamming 3 or 4 can be tough, but also more predictable. Plus then all the ships are low PS so better chance to kill something before it shoots.

One is not that annoying other than something like Miranda or a ghost/phantom combo.

But two means you're still doing a lot of TLT damage, but still have points for other good ships as well so you have to pick your poison.

6 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

It's competitive. It just isn't seen because most people find it incredibly dull to fly and to play against. If you don't believe me I'd advise you to go take it for a spin, but I'm not going to do that because that would be probably a rather dull game of xwing for you and your opponent.

Kanan Biggs is really good, but I don't see it as a major issue build. Also, Biggs is the issue there, not Kanan.

Heh more of the same. Sorry to disappoint!

1.) Except it isn't competitive. There are too many builds in this game's meta that on the surface seem like they'd be vulnerable to quad TLT, but in reality can just force a 1.5 Y-Wings vs. ace/Dengar/Defender scenario.

2.) If we're having an argument about how dull things are, Kanan Biggs is about as dull as quad Takes Skill Turret. Look at the wave 5 meta. Nothing is ever so dull that it completely stops play of itself. If something is actually that dull, the people who play it will come up with some excuse as to why it's not dull and pretend that it takes skill or has nuance.

3.) How can you want to nerf quad Takes Skill Turret, but not think that Kanan Biggs is a problem build? Kanan Biggs and Miranda Dash/Leebo(/Nym now I guess) are the most problematic squads with TLT in them. That doesn't make any sense.

17 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

1.) Except it isn't competitive. There are too many builds in this game's meta that on the surface seem like they'd be vulnerable to quad TLT, but in reality can just force a 1.5 Y-Wings vs. ace/Dengar/Defender scenario.

2.) If we're having an argument about how dull things are, Kanan Biggs is about as dull as quad Takes Skill Turret. Look at the wave 5 meta. Nothing is ever so dull that it completely stops play of itself. If something is actually that dull, the people who play it will come up with some excuse as to why it's not dull and pretend that it takes skill or has nuance.

3.) How can you want to nerf quad Takes Skill Turret, but not think that Kanan Biggs is a problem build? Kanan Biggs and Miranda Dash/Leebo(/Nym now I guess) are the most problematic squads with TLT in them. That doesn't make any sense.

2 lists with 3 or more TLT in the top 32 at worlds. All other TLT lists include either Miranda or Biggs. Things may have shifted a bit since, but I still think worlds results are valid. But if we don't agree on the point, that's fine. I don't expect everyone to agree with my viewpoint of the game.

I personally find Kanan Biggs a lot more engaging than quad TLT, but this may be just me. I'd be interested in other players input if they think Kanan Biggs and quad TLT are of equivalent "bore" level. I know @Stay On The Leader has quite the distaste for quad TLT. I'd be interested to hear what he thinks about Kanan Biggs.

Again, I believe Miranda's ability is the issue, not so much TLT in those builds. Take away Miranda's ability to regen on a TLT shot and instead restrict her ability to primary only, make a slight change to Biggs as well, and I think the lists that only have 1 or 2 TLTs become much, much more palatable. I didn't say I LOVED them currently, but even as is now, I personally find those games more engaging than one against a 3 or 4 TLT spam list.

Today we had a tournament with the new wave:

4 TLT Ywing (finished top 8 with 3-1)

4 TLT TIE Aggressors (unsure of rank, not top 8, was either 2-2 or 1-3)

Nym TLT + 2 YWing TLTs (4-0) (gave the loss to the 4 Ywing TLT)

The winner had no TLT, Nym Poe Rex (4-0, higher MoV)

TLTs are cancer.

Actually, one thing I always liked about fighting against a TLT is the feeling of relief you get when your opponent rolls multiple crits, but then you remember that it doesn't matter because it's just a TLT.

And then you return fire with Rexler, and suddenly everything becomes crits! Yay!