18 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Allow me to give an example:

A woman wearing a bikini to a beach or pool? Appropriate to the setting.

The same woman wearing the same bikini to her college classes? Most likely inappropriate to the setting (unless it's a college-level swimming class, I guess).

She is not wearing a bikini though. She wears a kimono(/whatever the proper name for that gown is) that looks totally appropriate in the context.

18 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

When someone feels the need to dress inappropriately for the situation just to draw attention to themselves, I would call that "trying too hard". And to me, that doesn't come across as "sexy", but rather as "sad". Kachiko is supposed to be a rather high-ranked woman married to a rather high-ranked man, and yet she's always depicted in a state of dress better suited to a high-priced courtesan (in the "good" art) or a drunken college girl (in Coils of Madness). Maybe this is intentional and Kachiko doesn't want people to take her seriously for some reason, but that's the impression I get from never seeing her in anything even resembling attire befitting her station.

How do you know what is the situation in the art? You can only see her in the composition, we have literally no idea what is happening.

Powerful woman and powerful man tend not to really care about the rules the rest of the society makes for them. Granted this is Rokugan and etiquette is supposed to be important but again we have 0 idea what is the situation in the art. If it was showing her off in front of emperor/ during some official meeting looking like that I would agree with you. But it doesn't.

On the other hand if Kachiko was supposed to adhere to etiquette or some rules made up by her husband in her private chambers that would be truly "sad/weak" to me.

And I don't know how you survived in the modern world if seeing a womans cleavage/thigh is too much for you.

edit: to be clear I am only arguing about this one piece of art

1 minute ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

To be fair to Kachiko, she has always been depicted as a seductress, and one of the best at that.

The problem isn't that she's good at it. The problem (IMO) is that, outside of a non-canon novel, we don't see her being good at anything else (arguably patience and "not getting caught poisoning her Emperor husband"... but that's circumstantial ).

As stated above, I am a Shoju fanboy going way back. Kachiko was never a particularly compelling character to me, for some reason. Good on her for holding the clan together (twice) when we desperately needed someone to do that, but to me her story really only had 4 bullet points that mattered.

• She created the false Hoturi via Egg of P'an Ku after he murdered their love-child without realizing who he was.
• She poisoned the Emporer, while married to him. Her goal was to kill him off without anyone realizing what happened, but in reality she just made it possible for Fu Leng to possess him, leading up to the day of thunder.
• She stabbed Fu Leng in the eyes with jade hair pins during the day of thunder.
• She led the clan back from the burning sands after the whole hidden emperor fiasco.

None of these involved seducing anyone. The only one that really required any leadership was bringing the clan back from the burning sands, and that didn't require much cleverness. Just leadership.

Almost all of her defining characteristics are either informed traits or come from her card art. While I get that a lot of people love her, I am hoping she gets better characterization this time around. I think the framework for a compelling character is definitely there, but I don't think the AEG story quite got there.

8 minutes ago, BordOne said:

She is not wearing a bikini though. She wears a kimono(/whatever the proper name for that gown is) that looks totally appropriate in the context.

How do you know what is the situation in the art? You can only see her in the composition, we have literally no idea what is happening.

Powerful woman and powerful man tend not to really care about the rules the rest of the society makes for them. Granted this is Rokugan and etiquette is supposed to be important but again we have 0 idea what is the situation in the art. If it was showing her off in front of emperor/ during some official meeting looking like that I would agree with you. But it doesn't.

On the other hand if Kachiko was supposed to adhere to etiquette or some rules made up by her husband in her private chambers that would be truly "sad" to me.

And I don't know how you survived in the modern world if seeing a womans cleavage/thigh is too much for you.

Oh, come now. That's not the point I was trying to make and you know it. You even addressed my actual point (that clothing should be appropriate to the setting), so please don't resort to irrationality.

To address your point about whether the setting is appropriate, I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm just saying, those doors she's entering through look more like they belong to a grand hall or even the walls of a city than to some personal chambers somewhere.

Isn't putting on a fake face to cause other people to not take you seriously or otherwise underestimate you one of the core philosophies of the Scorpion clan?

That said I think it would be more believable if in public she was dressed in a manner that fit her station. From her description in the Crane story I got the impression that her dress was right on the edge of respectful and revealing. Hotaru says something to the effect of she shows just enough to get your imagination going. What that's going to translate into for card art in the FFG era is yet to be seen, but to me that does suggest a slightly less extreme depiction compared to some of the old art pieces.

7 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I'm just saying, those doors she's entering through look more like they belong to a grand hall or even the walls of a city than to some personal chambers somewhere.

I dunno, if I was a rich and powerful person living in a palace, I would probably have doors like that for my bedroom...

45 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Sort of like how Star Wars' Expanded Universe went to thoroughly non-canon just because Lucasfilm said, "These are definitely not canon anymore".

Fixed for ya

Just now, Ide Yoshiya said:

Fixed for ya

Was that decision made before they were a part of Disney? I guess I wasn't paying too close attention at the time.

Either way, just glad Thrawn found his way back in.

Just now, JJ48 said:

Was that decision made before they were a part of Disney? I guess I wasn't paying too close attention at the time.

The decision was prompted by the realization of a sequel trilogy under Disney, but it was 100% LFL's decision. I still find it funny how many people think Disney is writing Star Wars now, when they have a whole company doing it for them.

1 minute ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

The decision was prompted by the realization of a sequel trilogy under Disney, but it was 100% LFL's decision. I still find it funny how many people think Disney is writing Star Wars now, when they have a whole company doing it for them.

To a point, but that's like saying that Toy Story and Cars aren't Disney movies just because Pixar's the one doing all the work.

2 hours ago, JJ48 said:

I don't know...the way her clothing hangs it still doesn't look like she's figured out how to wear it properly.

That's what I look like in a Kimono. It always keeps my guests guessing what might pop out next lol ^_~

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

Sort of like how Star Wars' Expanded Universe went to thoroughly non-canon just because Disney said, "These are definitely not canon anymore".

Yeah - Many of the Starwars fans I know who were actually Star Wars fans in spite of the prequels, not just returning fans now that a good movie has been released, were all big fans of the Expanded Universe. While these are "not canon" they are some of the best representations of the fuller world of Star Wars. Even without these novels being "canon" they are some of the best, and most complete pieces of fiction we have for these characters and I don't think AEG or FFG can rid us of these thoughts without ridding us of the character. They are going to change certain things, but they can't change who the characters are at heart that lead them through the first steps to begin with.

This is part of why I'm excited to see Shoju back in the story. He was developed very well through the book so we expect much of him now. I hope the writers on FFG's story team have read the novels even though they are noncanonical to get a better feel for who these characters are. It is entirely possible that Shoju simply dies on another fools errand "doing what must be done," and I'm fine with that and a Kachiko champion if it happens... but Shoju better get his piece first. I couldn't fathom him getting a write off like Arasou...

9 minutes ago, shosuko said:

That's what I look like in a Kimono. It always keeps my guests guessing what might pop out next lol ^_~

Yeah - Many of the Starwars fans I know who were actually Star Wars fans in spite of the prequels, not just returning fans now that a good movie has been released, were all big fans of the Expanded Universe. While these are "not canon" they are some of the best representations of the fuller world of Star Wars. Even without these novels being "canon" they are some of the best, and most complete pieces of fiction we have for these characters and I don't think AEG or FFG can rid us of these thoughts without ridding us of the character. They are going to change certain things, but they can't change who the characters are at heart that lead them through the first steps to begin with.

This is part of why I'm excited to see Shoju back in the story. He was developed very well through the book so we expect much of him now. I hope the writers on FFG's story team have read the novels even though they are noncanonical to get a better feel for who these characters are. It is entirely possible that Shoju simply dies on another fools errand "doing what must be done," and I'm fine with that and a Kachiko champion if it happens... but Shoju better get his piece first. I couldn't fathom him getting a write off like Arasou...

All this talk of Star Wars' EU...

Maybe the first major villain in FFG's L5R will be Grand Admiral Thrawn, in a thoroughly unexpected crossover! I'm sure Nerishma and Ackbar will get along well together, at least.

2 hours ago, JJ48 said:

All this talk of Star Wars' EU...

You started it.

Then I offered a well-intentioned correction and it just went downhill from there.

3 hours ago, JJ48 said:

To a point, but that's like saying that Toy Story and Cars aren't Disney movies just because Pixar's the one doing all the work.

I can (but won't, this time) argue that they aren't Disney movies, and honestly don't think of them as Disney movies.

On 7/17/2017 at 6:13 AM, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

I think alot of folks (myself included) saw/see alot of potential in Shoju that never got to be explored.

Everybody loves a good anti-hero.

An anti-hero is someone who does the right thing for the wrong reasons. I'd call Shoju more of an anti-villain, because he did the wrong thing for the right reasons. That's why I like the character so much: I have a soft spot for anti-villains. I hope we see more of them this time around.

5 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Oh, come now. That's not the point I was trying to make and you know it. You even addressed my actual point (that clothing should be appropriate to the setting), so please don't resort to irrationality.

To address your point about whether the setting is appropriate, I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm just saying, those doors she's entering through look more like they belong to a grand hall or even the walls of a city than to some personal chambers somewhere.

I've always thought that art represented Kachiko throwing open the palace gates for the other Thunders. Definitely one of her most awesome moments, though it's admittedly a weird time to be showing off skin.

4 hours ago, JJ48 said:

All this talk of Star Wars' EU...

Maybe the first major villain in FFG's L5R will be Grand Admiral Thrawn, in a thoroughly unexpected crossover! I'm sure Nerishma and Ackbar will get along well together, at least.

Considering the influence of The Hidden Fortress in A New Hope, things have certainly come full circle.

11 hours ago, JJ48 said:

And I guess that's part of my grievance. Yes, she's a seductress, but what exactly does that entail? I contend that seduction should be more about how she acts and manipulates people rather than just how much skin she shows, especially given her station. (Or are we honestly expected to believe she shows up to court in outfits like that?)

Here's how my headcanon breaks it down:
The Courtier keyword shows that she is mentally manipulative, as what Courtier isn't? It's part of the job, after all.
The Seductress keyword shows that, in addition to being mentally manipulative, she is also physically manipulative in a sexual (rather than violent) way.

If that helps explain it, great! If not, I can't help you, lol.

As to how revealing her attire is given her station , I think this is one of those perfect examples of how "Rokugan is not Japan." While there are instances of artwork depicting the same sort of hyper-conservative dress such as you might find in feudal Japan, they are not the norm, and I think in Rokugan, while touching is still a no-no, showing more skin is a more regular occurrence.

5 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

As to how revealing her attire is given her station , I think this is one of those perfect examples of how "Rokugan is not Japan." While there are instances of artwork depicting the same sort of hyper-conservative dress such as you might find in feudal Japan, they are not the norm, and I think in Rokugan, while touching is still a no-no, showing more skin is a more regular occurrence.

Also, if one compares the supercontinent to a real-world map, and assumes that this fictional world's landmass has a similar northerly tendency, it puts Rokugan squarely in the tropical latitude, making it far warmer than most of its real-world cultural inspirations. That's more thought than probably went into the decision to have Rokugani samurai show off more skin than their Japanese counterparts, but it's a decent way of BSing an explanation given the preexistence of this particular quirk.

16 minutes ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

Also, if one compares the supercontinent to a real-world map, and assumes that this fictional world's landmass has a similar northerly tendency, it puts Rokugan squarely in the tropical latitude, making it far warmer than most of its real-world cultural inspirations. That's more thought than probably went into the decision to have Rokugani samurai show off more skin than their Japanese counterparts, but it's a decent way of BSing an explanation given the preexistence of this particular quirk.

Except...Rokugan isn't tropical

Hot summers and cold winters.
Rokugan is California.

25 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

Hot summers and cold winters.
Rokugan is California.

Nope, It's Illinois

36 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Nope, It's Illinois

Lies, it must be Michigan. Plus, that means the Shadowlands are...Chicago.

1 minute ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Lies, it must be Michigan. Plus, that means the Shadowlands are...Chicago.

Hey now!!!, no need to get personal

14 hours ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Lies, it must be Michigan. Plus, that means the Shadowlands are...Chicago.

It can't be Michigan; we've seen no sign of any of Rokugan's roads being closed for construction!

42 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

It can't be Michigan; we've seen no sign of any of Rokugan's roads being closed for construction!

Our roads don't close, they are just fertile blooming sites for the great orange coneflower. A shame its blossoms are so large, and unsuited for our courtiers' flower arrangements.

4 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Our roads don't close, they are just fertile blooming sites for the great orange coneflower. A shame its blossoms are so large, and unsuited for our courtiers' flower arrangements.

I salute you for your flowery BS