5 hours ago, shosuko said:When did you start playing? Did you read the Clan Wars novel for Scorpion? Did you ever play with the Shoju card when he was alive?
Imperial, when he started undead, and you had to get him out of your dead discard. I haven't read the novel, but honestly while all your points are true, Kachiko is still twice his measure as a clan champ in my opinion.
My only problem with Kachiko was that, for all her cleverness and ability, she just couldn't seem to figure out how to wear a kimono properly. It was kind of sad, really.
Kachiko was a true leader... in LBS.
In L5R, she was always this caricature of "the powerful woman in a world where women have no power," ... except L5R is not that world, and never was.
It was always hard to respect her as a clan champion when her "go-to" move was, "show some shoulder; throw myself sexually at the powerful man."
It works for Cersei because Cersei has no alternatives. Kachiko just isn't talented enough of a character in any non-sexual-based area to shine.
I feel particularly bad for her after seeing her Coils of Madness card, and her attempt at...sitting? Lounging? Whatever she's supposed to be doing there.
I mean, just look at her poor, confused face. "Is...is this it? Am I doing it right? Do I look like a pretty empress yet?"
1 hour ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:Kachiko was a true leader... in LBS.
In L5R, she was always this caricature of "the powerful woman in a world where women have no power," ... except L5R is not that world, and never was.It was always hard to respect her as a clan champion when her "go-to" move was, "show some shoulder; throw myself sexually at the powerful man."
It works for Cersei because Cersei has no alternatives. Kachiko just isn't talented enough of a character in any non-sexual-based area to shine.
Yes and no. She was portrayed as being an excellent courtier and politician in the lore, pending on the source and edition. The problem is that the majority of her background or story is about either her beauty, Hoturi, or seductress trope rather than what she was usually doing (manipulation or clan leadership).
Again, the Sullivan book gives us more of a look at her as a mother, planner/schemer, and a Scorpion. She still has the seductress attributes but they're always treated as a tool rather than the usual trope.
1 hour ago, JJ48 said:I feel particularly bad for her after seeing her Coils of Madness card, and her attempt at...sitting? Lounging? Whatever she's supposed to be doing there.
I mean, just look at her poor, confused face. "Is...is this it? Am I doing it right? Do I look like a pretty empress yet?"
This art is supposed to be Kachiko around the time she encounters and uses the Egg of Pan'ku too. I always felt it was very odd that she looked like she was 17 or 18 when the previous art of her at this time is a more mature women, considering that she's in her later 30s. It also doesn't help that there's a pretty poor Nitoshi quote that doesn't necessarily make sense.
37 minutes ago, Kubernes said:
This art is supposed to be Kachiko around the time she encounters and uses the Egg of Pan'ku too. I always felt it was very odd that she looked like she was 17 or 18 when the previous art of her at this time is a more mature women, considering that she's in her later 30s. It also doesn't help that there's a pretty poor Nitoshi quote that doesn't necessarily make sense.
Sure it does
All of of Kachikos action between SCC and Second DoT are motivated by revenge. Including the EGG incident. That is what Nitoshi is referring to
4 hours ago, JJ48 said:I feel particularly bad for her after seeing her Coils of Madness card, and her attempt at...sitting? Lounging? Whatever she's supposed to be doing there.
I mean, just look at her poor, confused face. "Is...is this it? Am I doing it right? Do I look like a pretty empress yet?"
She's a seductress. She is acting vulnerable and submissive, because she has figured out that her victim likes vulnerable and submissive women.
7 hours ago, Kubernes said:Again, the Sullivan book gives us more of a look at her as a mother, planner/schemer, and a Scorpion. She still has the seductress attributes but they're always treated as a tool rather than the usual trope.
Sure, but you run into two issues here:
1) The Sullivan book is what made (makes) people fall in love with Shoju in the first place, which naturally pushes Kachiko into a clear 2nd place at best.
2) It's not canon.
1 hour ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:Sure, but you run into two issues here:
1) The Sullivan book is what made (makes) people fall in love with Shoju in the first place, which naturally pushes Kachiko into a clear 2nd place at best.
2) It's not canon.
Well, he was the central character in the book besides Toturi so Kachiko would be secondary.
Additionally, all the previous fiction is non canon now since FFG rebooted the timeline. Everything from the last two decades is far game when comparing the characters.
Edited by Kubernes7 hours ago, Ide Yoshiya said:She's a seductress. She is acting vulnerable and submissive, because she has figured out that her victim likes vulnerable and submissive women.
Then the artist probably should have depicted her as vulnerable and submissive, rather than just spacey and perplexed.
1 hour ago, JJ48 said:Then the artist probably should have depicted her as vulnerable and submissive, rather than just spacey and perplexed.
This art was heavily criticized at the time for being overtly sexual and overly vulnerable for a character that has never been portrayed that way previously. It's not a bad piece in a vacuum, but it isn't Kachiko. Especially, as noted above, Kachiko in her mid 30's when she is supposedly the Empress.
Compare to
the
definitive piece of Kachiko art. The difference is palpable.
Shoju, we aren't even at the Coup yet and much of the power and movements of the Scorpion before and during the Coup are directly caused by his hand. At this point in the story Kachiko was no where near as relevant as Shoju and we already pulled the "oops, the champ died, your in charge second in line" with both the Crane, the Lion, AND its looking like the Phoenix.
The main description of the clan has Shoju close to the emperor and we have his art as clearly part of the champion cycle. He is the champion character, and that is a good thing since this is the Core set, designed to introduce the clans at their core identities, and Shoju is far closer to that they Kachiko.
Leave Kachiko for an expansion where she is simply more relevant then right now. Yakamo didn't get a card, neither did Hitomi. I believe she will be shown later when her character is more relevant outside of being Hotaru's love interest.
27 minutes ago, Yogo Gohei said:
Compare to the definitive piece of Kachiko art. The difference is palpable.
I don't know...the way her clothing hangs it still doesn't look like she's figured out how to wear it properly.
12 minutes ago, JJ48 said:I don't know...the way her clothing hangs it still doesn't look like she's figured out how to wear it properly.
That, I believe, is the subtle difference between "wearing it"and "working it."
19 minutes ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:...and we already pulled the "oops, the champ died, your in charge second in line" with both the Crane, the Lion, AND its looking like the Phoenix.
To be fair, the Crane clan champ role was handed down to Hotaru prior to the fiction starting, and while her father was still quite alive.
4 hours ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:Sure, but you run into two issues here:
1) The Sullivan book is what made (makes) people fall in love with Shoju in the first place, which naturally pushes Kachiko into a clear 2nd place at best.
2) It's not canon.
What makes the novels non-canon, exactly? If it's simply the fact that they were publishrd by Wizards and the L5R license was since reacquired by AEG, I find that to be a weak reason in and of itself, but if there are specific events in the books that contradict Old Legend continuity, I would like to be aware of them.
Edited by Ide Yoshiya13 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:That, I believe, is the subtle difference between "wearing it"and "working it."
If you mean she's doing it intentionally in an attempt to look attractive, she's trying way too hard.
I never read any of the fiction with Kachiko in it, so I'm familiar with her only through her card art and a few summary mentions. Maybe the fictions presented her as clever and able, but that's not the impression I got from the artwork. Hopefully this time around we get a likeable, believable character rather than a laughable, over-the-top caricature.
Just now, JJ48 said:I never read any of the fiction with Kachiko in it, so I'm familiar with her only through her card art and a few summary mentions. Maybe the fictions presented her as clever and able, but that's not the impression I got from the artwork. Hopefully this time around we get a likeable, believable character rather than a laughable, over-the-top caricature.
Well, it's no longer the '90s and I don't believe Steve Argyle has done work for FFG. So you may get your wish, as far as these two cards are concerned.
28 minutes ago, JJ48 said:If you mean she's doing it intentionally in an attempt to look attractive, she's trying way too hard.
No she isn't trying too hard. She looks powerful and sexy to me and it is the first time I see this art, I don't really understand what part of it is "over the top".
or maybe showing a thigh is too much for a character who is supposed to be a seductress?
I am just honestly interested
Edited by BordOne5 minutes ago, BordOne said:No she isn't trying too hard. She looks powerful and sexy to me and it is the first time I see this art, I don't really understand what part of it is "over the top".
or maybe showing a thigh is too much for a character who is supposed to be a seductress?
I am just honestly interested
Allow me to give an example:
A woman wearing a bikini to a beach or pool? Appropriate to the setting.
The same woman wearing the same bikini to her college classes? Most likely inappropriate to the setting (unless it's a college-level swimming class, I guess).
When someone feels the need to dress inappropriately for the situation just to draw attention to themselves, I would call that "trying too hard". And to me, that doesn't come across as "sexy", but rather as "sad". Kachiko is supposed to be a rather high-ranked woman married to a rather high-ranked man, and yet she's always depicted in a state of dress better suited to a high-priced courtesan (in the "good" art) or a drunken college girl (in Coils of Madness). Maybe this is intentional and Kachiko doesn't want people to take her seriously for some reason, but that's the impression I get from never seeing her in anything even resembling attire befitting her station.
52 minutes ago, Ide Yoshiya said:What makes the novels non-canon, exactly? If it's simply the fact that they were publishrd by Wizards and the L5R license was since reacquired by AEG, I find that to be a weak reason in and of itself, but if there are specific events in the books that contradict Old Legend continuity, I would like to be aware of them.
There were some contradictions, but mostly it's that AEG said, "hey, those novels aren't canon."
Since it was their IP at the time, that's honestly good enough. *shrug*
1 minute ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:There were some contradictions, but mostly it's that AEG said, "hey, those novels aren't canon."
Since it was their IP at the time, that's honestly good enough. *shrug*
Sort of like how Star Wars' Expanded Universe went to thoroughly non-canon just because Disney said, "These are definitely not canon anymore".
5 minutes ago, JJ48 said:Allow me to give an example:
A woman wearing a bikini to a beach or pool? Appropriate to the setting.
The same woman wearing the same bikini to her college classes? Most likely inappropriate to the setting (unless it's a college-level swimming class, I guess).
When someone feels the need to dress inappropriately for the situation just to draw attention to themselves, I would call that "trying too hard". And to me, that doesn't come across as "sexy", but rather as "sad". Kachiko is supposed to be a rather high-ranked woman married to a rather high-ranked man, and yet she's always depicted in a state of dress better suited to a high-priced courtesan (in the "good" art) or a drunken college girl (in Coils of Madness). Maybe this is intentional and Kachiko doesn't want people to take her seriously for some reason, but that's the impression I get from never seeing her in anything even resembling attire befitting her station.
To be fair to Kachiko, she has always been depicted as a seductress, and one of the best at that.
The problem isn't that she's good at it. The problem (IMO) is that, outside of a non-canon novel, we don't see her being good at anything else (arguably patience and "not getting caught poisoning her Emperor husband"... but that's circumstantial
).
(And there's a very thin line between "appropriate kimono" and "oops, that slipped a lil kimono.")
Edited by Bayushi Tsubaki2 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:To be fair to Kachiko, she has always been depicted as a seductress, and one of the best at that.
The problem isn't that she's good at it. The problem (IMO) is that, outside of a non-canon novel, we don't see her being good at anything else (arguably patience and "not getting caught poisoning her Emperor husband"... but that's circumstantial
And I guess that's part of my grievance. Yes, she's a seductress, but what exactly does that entail? I contend that seduction should be more about how she acts and manipulates people rather than just how much skin she shows, especially given her station. (Or are we honestly expected to believe she shows up to court in outfits like that?)