They've shown Shoju's art, he's definitely in.

Kachiko, OTOH, will probably not be in the Core Set. Maybe in the first Deluxe (so that she's evergreen). I still think the first Deluxe will be about the Coup.

5 hours ago, shosuko said:

Shoju is likely the most fortunate character in this reboot as he can finally get a chance to have a real story instead of being sacrificed to the SCC.

Hida Sukune may disagree with that as the Dread Banner disappears into nothingness...

Interesting thing to me, about Shoju?

He should, by rights, be just another Shiba Ujimitsu or Shinjo Yokatsu- a character whose role is basically to be chumped out for the good of the storyline that has a few wingnut fans but really not much of a base. Shoju was dead and disgraced before the game began back in the day. Valid complaints can be made about Kachiko's role in the initial narrative, but at least she had one.

Shoju's status as the Scorpion Champion (so pivotal to the fanbase's image of the clan that a Temptation involving redeeming his name was greedily snapped up during the Race For the Throne) is one of the most bizarre and wonderful things to come out of the fanbase. I don't think any other Clan really has someone quite like that. Yeah, you've got a few Ujimitsu fans in Phoenix-land and some Unicorn and Kolat fans who recall Yokatsu fondly, but nothing like the adoration Shoju gets.

12 hours ago, Eu8L1ch said:

As others said, Shoju will be in for sure. But why not both?

If you take a look at the picture on the box, the woman in the center might very well be Bayhushi Kachiko. From "Her Father's Daughter":

"Kachiko’s eyes glinted through the minimal mask that framed them, leaving the rest of her features, as fine as delicate porcelain, exposed"

The mask in the image does look very minimal to me. Now that could be something that's not unique to Kachiko, but it's enough for me to consider the possibility. As for this being related to the chance of that illustration being on a card: the Crane on the left does not seem to match a card we know right now, but the Lion bushi on the right is Vengeful Oathkeeper. So she might be Kachiko and still not have a card in the Core Set, but I see no reason to be completely certain she won't be there.

You are talking about the box of the game? The woman in the center is almost 100% a Yogo Shugenja. She uses magic (duh) and she uses ofuda, "paper ward magic", which is Yogo Trademark Do Not Steal Isawa Fuckoff.

2 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Interesting thing to me, about Shoju?

He should, by rights, be just another Shiba Ujimitsu or Shinjo Yokatsu- a character whose role is basically to be chumped out for the good of the storyline that has a few wingnut fans but really not much of a base. Shoju was dead and disgraced before the game began back in the day. Valid complaints can be made about Kachiko's role in the initial narrative, but at least she had one.

Shoju's status as the Scorpion Champion (so pivotal to the fanbase's image of the clan that a Temptation involving redeeming his name was greedily snapped up during the Race For the Throne) is one of the most bizarre and wonderful things to come out of the fanbase. I don't think any other Clan really has someone quite like that. Yeah, you've got a few Ujimitsu fans in Phoenix-land and some Unicorn and Kolat fans who recall Yokatsu fondly, but nothing like the adoration Shoju gets.

I think alot of folks (myself included) saw/see alot of potential in Shoju that never got to be explored.

Everybody loves a good anti-hero.

4 hours ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Everybody loves a good anti-hero.

Was he even an anti-hero? I saw him as a tragic hero. He loved the Emperor, and only went through with the regicide because he loved the Empire more, and only after asking those present if one must do all in one's power to protect it and receiving the affirmative reply.

6 hours ago, WHW said:

You are talking about the box of the game? The woman in the center is almost 100% a Yogo Shugenja. She uses magic (duh) and she uses ofuda, "paper ward magic", which is Yogo Trademark Do Not Steal Isawa Fuckoff.

Yup, I was talking about her! The use of magic was not clear to me from the image, but I trust your observation on the "paper ward" stuff.

8 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Interesting thing to me, about Shoju?

He should, by rights, be just another Shiba Ujimitsu or Shinjo Yokatsu- a character whose role is basically to be chumped out for the good of the storyline that has a few wingnut fans but really not much of a base. Shoju was dead and disgraced before the game began back in the day. Valid complaints can be made about Kachiko's role in the initial narrative, but at least she had one.

Shoju's status as the Scorpion Champion (so pivotal to the fanbase's image of the clan that a Temptation involving redeeming his name was greedily snapped up during the Race For the Throne) is one of the most bizarre and wonderful things to come out of the fanbase. I don't think any other Clan really has someone quite like that. Yeah, you've got a few Ujimitsu fans in Phoenix-land and some Unicorn and Kolat fans who recall Yokatsu fondly, but nothing like the adoration Shoju gets.

Frankly as a Scorpion player I don't understand it. Kachiko is and always be where my loyalties go. She did the impossible, she resurrected the clan after it destruction, not once, but twice. She is the true spirit of the scorpion, that of survival and cleverness.

If Phoenix did get an 'enlightenment' victory condition that no one else has access to, my live for this game would take a major hit.

I am completely sure that Shoju will be a part of the core set. I really hope that Kachiko will be in it, but kind of doubt that she will be. She has always been my favorite character of the scorpion clan.

3 hours ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

Was he even an anti-hero? I saw him as a tragic hero. He loved the Emperor, and only went through with the regicide because he loved the Empire more, and only after asking those present if one must do all in one's power to protect it and receiving the affirmative reply.

In the context of Rokugani society, you could make a case that ALL Scorpions fit a loose anti-hero definition.

Shoju fits the tragic hero model, so I have no arguments here.

10 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Hida Sukune may disagree with that as the Dread Banner disappears into nothingness...

idk - I'd agree Hisa Sukune could be "equally fortunate," but lets not bicker about which got it worse, as they both got it...

1 hour ago, Taki said:

Frankly as a Scorpion player I don't understand it. Kachiko is and always be where my loyalties go. She did the impossible, she resurrected the clan after it destruction, not once, but twice. She is the true spirit of the scorpion, that of survival and cleverness.

When did you start playing? Did you read the Clan Wars novel for Scorpion? Did you ever play with the Shoju card when he was alive?

I think Shoju holds a very unique place in the storyline to Scorpion loyalists. He was the most iconic champion, better than Kachiko or Yojiro (both great champions) because he embodied the underhand of the Empire best, he showed what Scorpion loyalty and honor meant. The Lion talk about loyalty, and the Crane talk about honor, and the Scorpion laugh because to the Lion and the Crane these are defense mechanisms, that prevent them from performing their duty. Their loyalty and honor keep their hands clean. Shoju was willing to get them dirty because he was more loyal, and it was his honor to play his part. With no SCC who knows what Shoju will be up to...

7 minutes ago, shosuko said:

idk - I'd agree Hisa Sukune could be "equally fortunate," but lets not bicker about which got it worse, as they both got it...

When did you start playing? Did you read the Clan Wars novel for Scorpion? Did you ever play with the Shoju card when he was alive?

I think Shoju holds a very unique place in the storyline to Scorpion loyalists. He was the most iconic champion, better than Kachiko or Yojiro (both great champions) because he embodied the underhand of the Empire best, he showed what Scorpion loyalty and honor meant. The Lion talk about loyalty, and the Crane talk about honor, and the Scorpion laugh because to the Lion and the Crane these are defense mechanisms, that prevent them from performing their duty. Their loyalty and honor keep their hands clean. Shoju was willing to get them dirty because he was more loyal, and it was his honor to play his part. With no SCC who knows what Shoju will be up to...

Hopefully, that Scorpiony awesomeness

10 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Interesting thing to me, about Shoju?

He should, by rights, be just another Shiba Ujimitsu or Shinjo Yokatsu- a character whose role is basically to be chumped out for the good of the storyline that has a few wingnut fans but really not much of a base. Shoju was dead and disgraced before the game began back in the day. Valid complaints can be made about Kachiko's role in the initial narrative, but at least she had one.

Shoju's status as the Scorpion Champion (so pivotal to the fanbase's image of the clan that a Temptation involving redeeming his name was greedily snapped up during the Race For the Throne) is one of the most bizarre and wonderful things to come out of the fanbase. I don't think any other Clan really has someone quite like that. Yeah, you've got a few Ujimitsu fans in Phoenix-land and some Unicorn and Kolat fans who recall Yokatsu fondly, but nothing like the adoration Shoju gets.

Sullivan's boon is probably the culprit if you want to know Shoju got a "revival": it let the reader really get to know him and many others in the clan. Heck, it even fleshed out some other characters far more than the card and general story fiction ever did.

2 hours ago, Togashi Gao Shan said:

If Phoenix did get an 'enlightenment' victory condition that no one else has access to, my live for this game would take a major hit.

yeah, at the very least it would kind of suck if the clan that literally has a Seeker of Enlightenment as a card can't find enlightenment when someone else can.

21 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

yeah, at the very least it would kind of suck if the clan that literally has a Seeker of Enlightenment as a card can't find enlightenment when someone else can.

In fairness, they have the Seeker of Enlightenment, not the Finder of Enlightenment.

39 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

In fairness, they have the Seeker of Enlightenment, not the Finder of Enlightenment.

Boom. Lawyered.

48 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

In fairness, they have the Seeker of Enlightenment, not the Finder of Enlightenment.

7 minutes ago, Nickciufi said:

Boom. Lawyered.

I'd be careful about that, since it implies that we in the Phoenix have no Knowledge. Which is patently false. ( we know everything )

5 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

I'd be careful about that, since it implies that we in the Phoenix have no Knowledge. Which is patently false. ( we know everything )

Unfourtunately for the Phoenix, knowledge isn't wisdom.

29 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Unfourtunately for the Phoenix, knowledge isn't wisdom.

And so answers that age-old question, "What is not wisdom?"

1 hour ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

And so answers that age-old question, "What is not wisdom?"

Phoenix Knowledge. We *just* answered this.

2 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

I'd be careful about that, since it implies that we in the Phoenix have no Knowledge. Which is patently false. ( we know everything )

It implies no such thing! It simply means that seeking doesn't necessarily imply finding!

3 hours ago, JJ48 said:

In fairness, they have the Seeker of Enlightenment, not the Finder of Enlightenment.

Oh I fully understand, but to seek and never be able to find? That would suck. Or the character sucks. Either way, suckage is had.

1 hour ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

Phoenix Knowledge. We *just* answered this.

My reply was meant to be read as a statement.