9 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

All Cartel Spacers, or do you try to throw Sunny into the mix?

I tried once, and only once. He is the wrong ps, manouver 5 ships to all have a shot and as many get focus token as possible is hard enough with being able to choose who moves first. Also with a mangler his ability proxs even less due to the 3 dice.

3 minutes ago, Icelom said:

I tried once, and only once. He is the wrong ps, manouver 5 ships to all have a shot and as many get focus token as possible is hard enough with being able to choose who moves first. Also with a mangler his ability proxs even less due to the 3 dice.

Fair. Sunny's ability is a fun little roulette piece, but it's reliance on luck and the loss of PS are deterants.

I hear blow torches work too. Not as hammery... but just so hot right now...

On 7/16/2017 at 8:51 AM, FTS Gecko said:

...really?

Played Dengar/Nym twice - for the first time - won one game, lost the other.

"Just lost a Store Championship, FFG needs to fire their playetesters".

If you don't think that's overreacting, then we're really not going to be able to help you out.

Or maybe the OP understands that there is a persistent problem at FFG with playtesting and balance issues, and that the SC he played in just demonstrated another example in that series of blunders.

The biggest problem at FFG across the board right now is their knee jerk reaction to problem elements that don't really solve the actual problem but just exacerbate the problem by either creating a new problem or nerfing natural solutions to the problem within the meta. Deadeye is a great example. Let's screw all big ships because Jumpmaster exploits the card to a level that's frustrating and arguably overpowering. But the Jumpmaster evolved while counter options faded away. It's a culture of fear in which we as customers and players have to constantly wonder what oddball choice they'll make to try to control the level of playability of their products which they can't accurately predict during playtest.

9 minutes ago, Boris_the_Dwarf said:

Or maybe the OP understands that there is a persistent problem at FFG with playtesting and balance issues, and that the SC he played in just demonstrated another example in that series of blunders.

The biggest problem at FFG across the board right now is their knee jerk reaction to problem elements that don't really solve the actual problem but just exacerbate the problem by either creating a new problem or nerfing natural solutions to the problem within the meta. Deadeye is a great example. Let's screw all big ships because Jumpmaster exploits the card to a level that's frustrating and arguably overpowering. But the Jumpmaster evolved while counter options faded away. It's a culture of fear in which we as customers and players have to constantly wonder what oddball choice they'll make to try to control the level of playability of their products which they can't accurately predict during playtest.

The deadeye nerf didn't screw all big ships. No other big ship has ever regularly used deadeye. If there had been other squads in use that used deadeye on large base ships that might be a different story. Could affect FUTURE big base ships, but doesn't really hurt existing ones.

And FFG doesn't just knee jerk react to everything. If that was the case we'd have seen jumpmasters, probably attani, maybe sabine all nerfed again by now. The X7, Palp, manaroo and zuckuss nerfs were all completely reasonable and needed changes.

1 hour ago, Boris_the_Dwarf said:

Or maybe the OP understands that there is a persistent problem at FFG with playtesting and balance issues, and that the SC he played in just demonstrated another example in that series of blunders.

The biggest problem at FFG across the board right now is their knee jerk reaction to problem elements that don't really solve the actual problem but just exacerbate the problem by either creating a new problem or nerfing natural solutions to the problem within the meta. Deadeye is a great example. Let's screw all big ships because Jumpmaster exploits the card to a level that's frustrating and arguably overpowering. But the Jumpmaster evolved while counter options faded away. It's a culture of fear in which we as customers and players have to constantly wonder what oddball choice they'll make to try to control the level of playability of their products which they can't accurately predict during playtest.

So your argument in support of the OP's giant knee jerk reaction and wanting everyone fired for the design they made is that FFG makes knee jerk reactions to fix things? He is on here screaming to get everyone fired and you are supporting him because you think FFG will make a knee jerk reaction to fix what he is screaming about?

You dont make any sense.

6 hours ago, Icelom said:

I tried once, and only once. He is the wrong ps, manouver 5 ships to all have a shot and as many get focus token as possible is hard enough with being able to choose who moves first. Also with a mangler his ability proxs even less due to the 3 dice.

Sunny is a she.

But I agree; the ability isn't worth losing the tactical flexibility that having your whole fleet be the same PS provides.

9 hours ago, Boris_the_Dwarf said:

Or maybe the OP understands that there is a persistent problem at FFG with playtesting and balance issues, and that the SC he played in just demonstrated another example in that series of blunders.

And how, precisely, did that Store Championship demonstrate such a thing?

The OP played against the top Scurrg pilot twice. Both times he tucked tail and ran like a coward, hoping to win the match on points. He won one game, lost the other.

1-1

50-50

Half and half.

The only thing that proves is that the OP's choice of tactics (a debatable description) didn't work well enough to win him the Store Championship, and the only blunder demonstrated was his decision to not actually play the game and try to burn Nym down with two full health regenerating T-70's, which should have been more than up to the task.

On 7/19/2017 at 4:57 AM, FTS Gecko said:

And how, precisely, did that Store Championship demonstrate such a thing?

The OP played against the top Scurrg pilot twice. Both times he tucked tail and ran like a coward, hoping to win the match on points. He won one game, lost the other.

1-1

50-50

Half and half.

The only thing that proves is that the OP's choice of tactics (a debatable description) didn't work well enough to win him the Store Championship, and the only blunder demonstrated was his decision to not actually play the game and try to burn Nym down with two full health regenerating T-70's, which should have been more than up to the task.

You can make fun all you want, Trust me I tried to fight his Nym, with my poe and red aces, but with a 9PS, I had an 8 and 6 on my ships, It was impossible. I ran and set up several shots, but he just barrels out and shoots with AC Autoturret and dropped a bomb every time. In the first game when I ran he chased and I was able to burn NYM down and kill him, but only because he flew poorly and didn't barrel roll several times when he should of. In the second game, I killed dengar and ran to range 3 to avoid his bombs, but this guy used Nym 4 straight an barrel roll, so when he chased me I couldn't lose him and ever turn he is doing two damage automatically and bombing me which at one point did 4 damage I couldn't do anything about. (FFG needs to say ships with autothrusters, roll 1 green die versus bombs on an evade they ignore the damage) Trust me I flew well, you can make fun all you want, after you play a good player with this you will understand how easy mode it really is. The Mynocks agree I just listened to their Podcast. Trust me, this is really poor play testing. The Bomblet should have been a dual card and work every other turn. This is one of the most NPE ships to fly against. The only strategy is to kill it first, while Dengar rips you a new one then entire time, with Expertise.

Having now played against a few Nym variants, I really don't see what the issue is. In one game my TIE/D Vessery almost single handedly ate him for breakfast early on. In another game Inquisitor and Omega Leader managed to grind him down 2v1 in the endgame.

PS10 Nym with autoblaster. accuracy corrector, and bomblett is decent, but he's very squishy for his cost and is easily outmanoeuvred and attritioned down. 1v1 he's decent, but as soon as you have multiple ships to bait and switch he's a lot less impressive. Again his 10hp at agility 1 is pretty squishy in the current meta, especially for his 39+ point cost. I'd hardly call him OP or a NPE.

24 minutes ago, CRCL said:

Having now played against a few Nym variants, I really don't see what the issue is. In one game my TIE/D Vessery almost single handedly ate him for breakfast early on. In another game Inquisitor and Omega Leader managed to grind him down 2v1 in the endgame.

PS10 Nym with autoblaster. accuracy corrector, and bomblett is decent, but he's very squishy for his cost and is easily outmanoeuvred and attritioned down. 1v1 he's decent, but as soon as you have multiple ships to bait and switch he's a lot less impressive. Again his 10hp at agility 1 is pretty squishy in the current meta, especially for his 39+ point cost. I'd hardly call him OP or a NPE.

Did you play Dengar Nym? That's what this thread is about?

1 hour ago, eagletsi111 said:

You can make fun all you want, Trust me I tried to fight his Nym...[SNIP] Trust me I flew well... [SNIP] Trust me, this is really poor play testing... [SNIP]

Short answer... no.

Long answer... you're blowing up in a public forum about limited personal experience which has formed a very personal opinion.

Longer segway... the podcasts are all known for often being hyperbolic in regards to new waves, and they very, very often miss the pulse of the meta. They're pretty quick to catch on and discuss the new shiny, but have very rarely accurately predicted a meta before it arrives. This meta has not formed yet.

Also, for all your pleas for us to trust you... Why don't you try trusting the experienced members of this forum? They've given you suggestions, recommendations, examples, etc... And these are people who have been playing the game for years, have experienced severe rules changes, meta upheavals, ships and combos that truly needed errata, etc... These are not uninformed opinions.

I'm not suggesting they are always right. Simply that they are informed.

Some have already played with or against the list you have concerns about, and do not share your concerns. At the very least, this should clearly push the issue into the realm of personal opinions. With more time, people will either come to agree or disagree, but, right now, it doesn't look like your concern is getting traction, and there are reasons for that.

But your continued posting like this is really only pushing public opinion on one topic... you.

Let it go. If this list is your boogeyman, so be it. Now you know what your benchmark is. I have every faith that, with more time and experience with/against it, you'll succeed.

38 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

Short answer... no.

Long answer... you're blowing up in a public forum about limited personal experience which has formed a very personal opinion.

Longer segway... the podcasts are all known for often being hyperbolic in regards to new waves, and they very, very often miss the pulse of the meta. They're pretty quick to catch on and discuss the new shiny, but have very rarely accurately predicted a meta before it arrives. This meta has not formed yet.

Also, for all your pleas for us to trust you... Why don't you try trusting the experienced members of this forum? They've given you suggestions, recommendations, examples, etc... And these are people who have been playing the game for years, have experienced severe rules changes, meta upheavals, ships and combos that truly needed errata, etc... These are not uninformed opinions.

I'm not suggesting they are always right. Simply that they are informed.

Some have already played with or against the list you have concerns about, and do not share your concerns. At the very least, this should clearly push the issue into the realm of personal opinions. With more time, people will either come to agree or disagree, but, right now, it doesn't look like your concern is getting traction, and there are reasons for that.

But your continued posting like this is really only pushing public opinion on one topic... you.

Let it go. If this list is your boogeyman, so be it. Now you know what your benchmark is. I have every faith that, with more time and experience with/against it, you'll succeed.

No question you can succeed against it. I do believe your right that others will learn to beat it, but that doesn't excuse power creep seen by this ship and FFG.

This bomber compared to a B-wing even at the lowest level is 24 points, but has 2 more hull+ shields, can carry unlimited bombs, Has a dial which is 100 times better, Has crew, system, Droid slots and a turret. All for 24 points. What does the B-wing get PS=2, and has no turret a bad dial, and can carry a cannon.

Compared to other factions bombers, Tie bomber, Punisher, K-wing, this guy outclasses them all in every detail except for Slamming. PW=3 all of these are 2, Immune to it's own bombs and can take Genius, so it can move and bomb every turn without worrying about people getting behind it. Turret with System

FFG has basically just made older ships even more unplayable, because the newer ships are so much better. Dengar gets better, because he can have Cad bane and bombs, Sloop and Poop, which he does all the time now, in most cases boosts away. Plus you cannot tell me play testers didn't test Dengar and Nym together, with unstoppable bombs, and everything else and say. This is fine, there is nothing wrong with this at all, there are no balance issues that see. Sure they can AC autoturret and hit for bombs which is potentially 4 unstoppable damage, but hey sounds balanced to me" Because if they did they need to take a look at themselves and fix what's wrong with them. Balance is the key here, and even veteran players cannot look at the facts above and state it's balanced.

Maybe they will FAQ autothrusters to state, when a bomb detonates on you, roll a green die on and evade ignore any damage. That will help, but 4 unstoppable damage is just not fun, period. They need to do something because not having any defense versus these weapons is very NPE.

note, you cannot powercreep over bad ships because they aren't the metric by which "power" is defined. the B and especially the punisher are **** awful as evidenced by them not appearing anywhere, so citing them as things that the SCURRG is better than really accomplishes nothing other than stating the obvious. Being better than bad ships does not constitute power creep.

In regards to K-wing, however, it demolishes the SCURRG for the simple reasons that

a.) the bomb gimmick, Adv. SLAM, is not tied to a specific pilot

b.) Miranda can rengerate

in a 1v1 between Miranda and Nym, the Miranda player basically has to throw the game to lose. While Nym has his own fun strengths, Miranda is overall superior because she is simply far and away more durable needing only a single trigger of her ability to equal to the SCURRG statline. She is also far stronger at long range thanks to TLT synergy, and has close range countermeasures in the form of SLAM + bombs whereas Nym is all about close range with ABT and "genius" bombletts.

None of this is even getting into access to sabine.

the SCURRG has been nothing but a kneejerk trigger for a lot of the forums, despite the very obvious and glaring flaws the ship possesses. Lack of guaranteed defenses, boost, and a decent but nowhere near stellar dial makes for a far more difficult to fly ship than one might imagine. Sure, it has a turret..a range 1 limited turret. As far as arc-dodgers go, it is quite objectively nowhere near the top (compare to say Super Dash as a good example)

Now, as a jouster you obviously have to make playstyle adjustments to account for bombs because, turns out, they're worthwhile enough to actually influence your opponent's playstyle. But if you fly just about anything that doesn't have to fly directly at Nym, you soon realize how limited he actually is.

People want new stuff to be good. It's more interesting that way.

well,we don't want new stuff to be punisher

goddamn Deathrain, so fascinating but so horribly overpriced

The Punisher's time will come. Someday. Probably.

• Deathrain - Advanced Sensors, Bomblet Generator (32)

Nifty (Boost, Bomb, Barrel Roll, reveal your dial) but probably still ****, especially for the cost.

Let me put it this way:

• You have a 50% win rate against this list. Until additional evidence accumulates, that is definitionally "balanced".
• Looking at the advice people have given, it boils down to Kill Nym First. In neither game did you do that.
• Noone is claiming dengar has become less scary. He hasn't. But whilst he's good, Nym has more sustainable threat because his secondary weapons dont run out whilst dengars do. An expertise turret is more surviveable than 3-4 damage bypassing agility, and VI nym beats PS9poe whilst dengar just equals it.
• The basic scurrg is 24 points and does indeed outclass the 22 point blue squadron. However, I'm unconvinced that it outclasses a blue squadron with 2 points of upgrades, because fire control system plus a PS advantage (okay 1 to 2, but that matters at the swarmy end of life!) is worth a couple of hits in my mind.
• Bomblet Deathrain really likes lightweight frame, too.

9 minutes ago, SOTL said:

The Punisher's time will come. Someday. Probably.

I got 3rd in a ST with Two Punishers and a Palp shuttle. there not as bad as everyone thinks.

==============
Sidious Swords
==============

100 points

Pilots
------

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (35)
TIE Punisher (21), Sensor Jammer (4), Extra Munitions (2), Homing Missiles (5), Proximity Mines (3), Long Range Scanners (0)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (35)
TIE Punisher (21), Sensor Jammer (4), Extra Munitions (2), Ion Torpedoes (5), Proximity Mines (3), Long Range Scanners (0)

Omicron Group Pilot (30)
Lambda-Class Shuttle (21), Collision Detector (0), Tractor beam (1), Emperor Palpatine (8)

10 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

• The basic scurrg is 24 points and does indeed outclass the 22 point blue squadron. However, I'm unconvinced that it outclasses a blue squadron with 2 points of upgrades, because fire control system plus a PS advantage (okay 1 to 2, but that matters at the swarmy end of life!) is worth a couple of hits in my mind.

Major Juggler helpfully provided the numbers (as requested by the OP). The conclusion was that the basic Scurrg and the basic B-Wing were about on par with each other.

2 hours ago, eagletsi111 said:

You can make fun all you want...

I'm not making fun. Maybe that's the problem here, you're simply not being receptive to what everyone here is actually telling you. I'm pointing out what you yourself posted at the start of the thread. You played two games, using flight-not-fight tactics when you ended up 2 vs 1 on Nym. You won one, lost the other. That proves nothing other than your tactics didn't work well enough to win both games.

Furthermore, the two games you played were against the top Scurrg pilot, Captain Nym. As others have pointed out, The best pilot for any ship SHOULD be good! If you're paying 40+ points for a 1 Agility ship it SHOULD be good! Unless you think Nym should just be another Cassian Andor or Talonbane Cobra?

32 minutes ago, eagletsi111 said:

I got 3rd in a ST with Two Punishers and a Palp shuttle. there not as bad as everyone thinks.

==============
Sidious Swords
==============

100 points

Pilots
------

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (35)
TIE Punisher (21), Sensor Jammer (4), Extra Munitions (2), Homing Missiles (5), Proximity Mines (3), Long Range Scanners (0)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (35)
TIE Punisher (21), Sensor Jammer (4), Extra Munitions (2), Ion Torpedoes (5), Proximity Mines (3), Long Range Scanners (0)

Omicron Group Pilot (30)
Lambda-Class Shuttle (21), Collision Detector (0), Tractor beam (1), Emperor Palpatine (8)

It is possible to perform well with things that are objectively bad. At worst, this is a dice game. At best, you don't always run into hard-counters.

That probably looked really badass on the mat, though.

Just a general observation.

When facing a new build with unknown abilities, it's difficult to adapt your play style on the fly. Especially in the first meeting. From the initial placement on the map, the initial approach and the obstacle placement, all of this is based on past experience. Which may not work against this new opponent. Once you're in gun range you no longer have the option to analyze the situation leisurely. Especially in a timed match.

FWIW.

3 hours ago, eagletsi111 said:

You can make fun all you want, Trust me I tried to fight his Nym, with my poe and red aces, but with a 9PS, I had an 8 and 6 on my ships, It was impossible. I ran and set up several shots, but he just barrels out and shoots with AC Autoturret and dropped a bomb every time. In the first game when I ran he chased and I was able to burn NYM down and kill him, but only because he flew poorly and didn't barrel roll several times when he should of. In the second game, I killed dengar and ran to range 3 to avoid his bombs, but this guy used Nym 4 straight an barrel roll, so when he chased me I couldn't lose him and ever turn he is doing two damage automatically and bombing me which at one point did 4 damage I couldn't do anything about. (FFG needs to say ships with autothrusters, roll 1 green die versus bombs on an evade they ignore the damage) Trust me I flew well, you can make fun all you want, after you play a good player with this you will understand how easy mode it really is. The Mynocks agree I just listened to their Podcast. Trust me, this is really poor play testing. The Bomblet should have been a dual card and work every other turn. This is one of the most NPE ships to fly against. The only strategy is to kill it first, while Dengar rips you a new one then entire time, with Expertise.

So...you're trying to run away and he's chasing you and bombing/autoblastering you anyway. Which means exactly what people are trying to tell you, trying to run away was a terrible idea. If you turn around and face him, with two ships you can spread arcs enough to prevent him from dodging both. Then if you end up at range one, he's doing 2 damage from auto blaster (and possibly something from a bomb depending on positioning) while you're throwing 4 dice back at him, 8 if he ends up in both arcs. Or if you're at range 2, he throws 3 dice, you throw 3-6. You have more agility and 2 ships that can regenerate, there's no way you should ever lose that fight. Worst case, a ship takes a few damage and splits off to regain while the other one keeps him occupied. If he tries to chase the hurt ship, the other one should be getting easy shots.

1 hour ago, eagletsi111 said:

No question you can succeed against it. I do believe your right that others will learn to beat it, but that doesn't excuse power creep seen by this ship and FFG.

This bomber compared to a B-wing even at the lowest level is 24 points, but has 2 more hull+ shields, can carry unlimited bombs, Has a dial which is 100 times better, Has crew, system, Droid slots and a turret. All for 24 points. What does the B-wing get PS=2, and has no turret a bad dial, and can carry a cannon.

Compared to other factions bombers, Tie bomber, Punisher, K-wing, this guy outclasses them all in every detail except for Slamming. PW=3 all of these are 2, Immune to it's own bombs and can take Genius, so it can move and bomb every turn without worrying about people getting behind it. Turret with System

FFG has basically just made older ships even more unplayable, because the newer ships are so much better. Dengar gets better, because he can have Cad bane and bombs, Sloop and Poop, which he does all the time now, in most cases boosts away. Plus you cannot tell me play testers didn't test Dengar and Nym together, with unstoppable bombs, and everything else and say. This is fine, there is nothing wrong with this at all, there are no balance issues that see. Sure they can AC autoturret and hit for bombs which is potentially 4 unstoppable damage, but hey sounds balanced to me" Because if they did they need to take a look at themselves and fix what's wrong with them. Balance is the key here, and even veteran players cannot look at the facts above and state it's balanced.

Maybe they will FAQ autothrusters to state, when a bomb detonates on you, roll a green die on and evade ignore any damage. That will help, but 4 unstoppable damage is just not fun, period. They need to do something because not having any defense versus these weapons is very NPE.

As FGD already pointed out, the b-wing is an already underpowered ship, so not a good comparison for whether a new ship is OP or not. And as for being able to carry unlimited bombs, since it's a maneuver drop to get the best effect of it, you need to be high PS, meaning you're spending more points on top of the unlimited bombs, and at that point you're probably spending MORE points to load up with other upgrades.

Comparing to other bombers, the tie bomber is a terrible actual "bomber", so this changes nothing. The k-wing is still a way better bomber with low PS generics, and miranda is as good as or better than Nym as a high PS bomber. The punisher, as FGD also pointed out, is terrible, so again, this own't make it any worse. Might even make it better than it was with some of the new upgrades. And while the scurrg has 3 attack, the k-wing has a PWT. Scurrg can take a turret upgrade, but then you're sinking even more points into it, and has it's own downsides compared to a PWT.

I'm just here to say that yesterday I obliterated this list with a rebel Z-95, rebel Nym and a T-65 (not Biggs).

The guy I played against won the previous two locals, and this time he went 0-3. I'm having a hard time beliving Dengar Nym is anything more than average.

17 minutes ago, Elavion said:

I'm just here to say that yesterday I obliterated this list with a rebel Z-95, rebel Nym and a T-65 (not Biggs).

The guy I played against won the previous two locals, and this time he went 0-3. I'm having a hard time beliving Dengar Nym is anything more than average.

Airen Cracken (19)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Cruise Missiles (3)
Guidance Chips (0)

Captain Nym (Rebel) (30)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Twin Laser Turret (6)
Cruise Missiles (3)
Bomblet Generator (3)
Collision Detector (0)
"Genius" (0)
Guidance Chips (0)
Havoc (0)

Wedge Antilles (29)
Adaptability (0)
Plasma Torpedoes (3)
R3-A2 (2)
Guidance Chips (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

That list or something similar by any chance?