It's a great month for store champs, 2 down 2 to go and some really cool stuff showing up at each of them. Here's a few thoughts I took away from today, lets see how they mesh with your own experiences...

1) The Rhymer is dead, long live the Rhymer... This is two store champs now no Rhymer... can't say I'm sad to see him go either.

2) Avenger is the absolute king of the table... I've nicknamed the boarding trooper avenger as the death star because it will basically annihilate anything it catches short of a large base ship... The basic build looks like this - ISD1, Boarding troopers, Avenger, Spinal Lasers, leading shots. I've seen a few variations, Ozzel, Darth, Sloan, saw one with Tua/ECM etc. But the core build is always the same. My Dodonna whale played dodge the ISD for 5 turns today until it caught me in turn 6 and one shot a full health Whale... Realistically it only needs 9 damage to do this thanks to troopers/Avenger and it's not really even that hard. Only needs 7 to do the same to Admonition... If the Reikan nerf didn't kill off the Gallant Haven builds in your area this fat bastard will for sure...

3) Bids and activations were on the rise again... Our biggest today was an all ship list with 7 activations and a 16 point bid. We hadn't seen anything like that for ages but with 3 raiders and a death star ISD this list had all the anti squad you could possibly ask for and could reliably last first anything. Not a refined list at all but there were 3/8 fleets that all had bids over over 10 and that's a new development for us.

4) Flotillas are not dead... Whoever said that lied badly... They are absolutely still alive and well and driving along the back of the board edge pushing squadron activations through shuttles...

5) Raiders are awesome - **** it was cool seeing multiple raiders in multiple fleets. The simple addition of disposable launchers has absolutely made these super cool and I for one am stoked about this. Combined with the ISDs though this did absolutely push the activation count so the average was 4-5 now and the bids became more significant as peoples pushed for first player hard.

I think from a rebel perspective the biggest changes were about what ships I will and won't use. My humble whale is just not doing it anymore, nor is the ol Admo going to cut it. I need to seriously rethink which ships are going to be the mainstay of my Rebel fleets. Corvettes aren't my fav anymore for a variety of reasons not the least is the new dual lasers that are allowing for leading shots to be projected so easily and Marek Steele who just does such stupid amounts of damage so easily.

Whats super interesting too is how different this was to last weeks comp despite having similar players. More evidence to me that the game might be competitive but in terms of fleet variety it's in the best place its been for ages, a great time to play some Armada.

My store Championship is next month on the 12th. I'm a Rebel player, but will play Imperials every once in a while. this has given me some thought on what to expect for next month. An ISD bording Troop Avenger sounds fun to use, but now how to counter that if I play agaisnt it as a Rebel or Imperial. I still need to put a list together to start practicing. Im getting hyped for the store championship though!

2 minutes ago, EagleScoutof007 said:

An ISD bording Troop Avenger sounds fun to use, but now how to counter that if I play agaisnt it as a Rebel or Imperial.

It's the same as previously: jump around its front arc. Sure, it'll still exhaust your tokens, but it's not going to be throwing 8 dice at you from its sides.

Same way you always combat an ISD: dodge that front arc like Patches O'Hoolihan. Avenger/BT is best used against medium and large ships and is rather wasted against small ships.

7 hours ago, beefcake4000 said:

I think from a rebel perspective the biggest changes were about what ships I will and won't use. My humble whale is just not doing it anymore

Poor AFs. They really got powercreeped, left behind design wise.

7 hours ago, beefcake4000 said:

2) Avenger is the absolute king of the table... I've nicknamed the boarding trooper avenger as the death star because it will basically annihilate anything it catches short of a large base ship... The basic build looks like this - ISD1, Boarding troopers, Avenger, Spinal Lasers, leading shots. I've seen a few variations, Ozzel, Darth, Sloan, saw one with Tua/ECM etc. But the core build is always the same. My Dodonna whale played dodge the ISD for 5 turns today until it caught me in turn 6 and one shot a full health Whale... Realistically it only needs 9 damage to do this thanks to troopers/Avenger and it's not really even that hard. Only needs 7 to do the same to Admonition... If the Reikan nerf didn't kill off the Gallant Haven builds in your area this fat bastard will for sure...

Can someone talk about how this build actually works movement wise? Are you pretty guaranteed to chase something down with Boarding? Do you ened 1st player?

9 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Can someone talk about how this build actually works movement wise? Are you pretty guaranteed to chase something down with Boarding? Do you ened 1st player?

The build I used to win my SC was just Avenger and troops (admiral was Vader), and a 22 pt bid. If you math it out it's extremely likely to one shot a medium ship with just the front arc, however, for a large ship you need to double arc. I always queue up nav commands on the ISD because getting the double arc is crucial to destroying a large ship. In terms of movement I pretty much go speed 3 most of the time because you don't want to give your opponent time to position around it. After I delete the biggest ship I fly away at speed 3, never to be seen again. In my opinion first player is pretty much required, but last-firsting is not since the ISD can take a couple punches to the nose before flying away.

I've seen other builds, but my personal favorite is just Avenger and troops with Vader as the admiral because really that's all you need. Though I do like the one with Captain Needa + TRCs too.

52 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

Same way you always combat an ISD: dodge that front arc like Patches O'Hoolihan. Avenger/BT is best used against medium and large ships and is rather wasted against small ships.

IF you can dodge a front arc you can dodge a ball.

And @Blail Blerg you hit the nail on the head. Avenger BT is essentially useless without first player. Not so much Avenger is useless without first (though good luck getting a front arc shot on anything ideal) but because the isd avenger support ships which usually consist of ER Raiders are super duper useless without first player.

Especially in the mirror match, whoever wins the bid wins.

28 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

And @Blail Blerg you hit the nail on the head. Avenger BT is essentially useless without first player. Not so much Avenger is useless without first (though good luck getting a front arc shot on anything ideal) but because the isd avenger support ships which usually consist of ER Raiders are super duper useless without first player.

Especially in the mirror match, whoever wins the bid wins.

Not entirely. At that point it's about forcing pressure. Your opponent MUST get the hell out of that front arc, which can give an ER Raider an opening. You know, like any good second player tactics...

Let's talk more about it? how easily in the Avenger + BT Vader ISD countered movement wise?

What's an example list? 2 raiders? 3 raider?

19 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Let's talk more about it? how easily in the Avenger + BT Vader ISD countered movement wise?

What's an example list? 2 raiders? 3 raider?

Pretty much any experienced player that play a fleet that is not built for first player specifically can beat it. I don't believe you need any specific build to beat it.

57 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

Not entirely. At that point it's about forcing pressure. Your opponent MUST get the hell out of that front arc, which can give an ER Raider an opening. You know, like any good second player tactics...

Not saying there isn't a way for someone who is skilled to make second player work, but it's a fleet that is designed for first and even when flown excellently relies on being able to put your opponent in a bad position, which if they fly equally as well they should be able to avoid truly feeling the fury of the avenger troopers or raiders.

I ran the 7 ship iVenger list at this store champs.

Will have a battle blog video out soon

Isnt it Ironek, dontcha think.

(Turns out on closer inspection your name isnt even close to "ironic")

So what I can read from it, if a Medium ship or smaller ends the turn in front of a 1st player Avenger BT build, at close range, its more or less per default destroyed.

Somehow this strikes me as taking the fun out of the game.

Part of the fun is making you opponent take the hard choise of which defence tokens he has to use per attack against his ship, but if that is completely taken out of the equation. What is the fun in that?

One effective counter, would be a Ackbar CR90A TRC swarm, where the loss of one CR90 to the Avenger BT is less felt, and where the Avenger will pay the price by multiple medium sized small attacks at long range. But that would create a fixed meta, if its one of few Rebel builds to counter the above.

Anyhow thats me 2 credits

14 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Isnt it Ironek, dontcha think.

(Turns out on closer inspection your name isnt even close to "ironic")

That's already far more ironic than any of the lyrics of that song.

1 hour ago, Kiwi Rat said:

So what I can read from it, if a Medium ship or smaller ends the turn in front of a 1st player Avenger BT build, at close range, its more or less per default destroyed.

I found against small ships its a waste to send the boarding parties unless its a flotilla or some tanky mc30 builds. Because any other small ship would melt normally under the front arc of an ISD pre-BT era.

Its only a one trick pony at the cost of Gunnery teams obviously.

I concede that a Guppy would probably be the only medium ship that could survive a full front arc ISD shot at close range because it could take ECMs and with BTs now it probably wont.

1 hour ago, Kiwi Rat said:

Somehow this strikes me as taking the fun out of the game.

Part of the fun is making you opponent take the hard choise of which defence tokens he has to use per attack against his ship, but if that is completely taken out of the equation. What is the fun in that?

At close range front arc of an ISD was there much of a choice even before BT? I believe most ship crews were exhausting any available defences as possible!

I dont think i won the day because of the BTs, like out of the three rounds i boarded a flotilla and an ISD (which sent boarders across in return), in my third round i was against JerJerrod who danced around my fleet and effectively prevented me getting my BTs into range.

I also had no squadrons as well, so a heavy bomber fleet would have been an effective counter. Heck having no squadrons was also hindered my deployment by a lot.

32 minutes ago, Irokenics said:

I found against small ships its a waste to send the boarding parties unless its a flotilla or some tanky mc30 builds. Because any other small ship would melt normally under the front arc of an ISD pre-BT era.

Its only a one trick pony at the cost of Gunnery teams obviously.

I concede that a Guppy would probably be the only medium ship that could survive a full front arc ISD shot at close range because it could take ECMs and with BTs now it probably wont.

At close range front arc of an ISD was there much of a choice even before BT? I believe most ship crews were exhausting any available defences as possible!

I dont think i won the day because of the BTs, like out of the three rounds i boarded a flotilla and an ISD (which sent boarders across in return), in my third round i was against JerJerrod who danced around my fleet and effectively prevented me getting my BTs into range.

I also had no squadrons as well, so a heavy bomber fleet would have been an effective counter. Heck having no squadrons was also hindered my deployment by a lot.

Okay thanks, Im less worried now.

Avenger BT = dangerous, but can be avoided, if one fly well to avoid its close range front arc, duly noted

I don't know if I'd call it taking the fun out of the game but it is the single most reliable thing to pull off since the days of double tap demolisher. Do people remember how bad the triple tap demo days were? Suddenly it was all about bids and activation spam because for all the guys saying just dodge the front arc I reckon you need to remember that you opponent isn't an idiot. If they have more activations than you and first player they have a huge advantage.

Tractors won't work but blocking with flotillas still might... I do mean might....

Ultimately right now I think it's stupid powerful because it's a one shot super amazing combo that really is easy to pull off compared to most other combos. Avenger was always good but having to get suppressor into the right spot or even use Sloan squadrons is far more tricky than what you can do now with activations and a bid... I do still think it can be countered and it really is a one shot weapon but ultimately it's something you will need to deal with for the foreseeable future.

The greatest irony is that we just a nerf to demo to remove his insane alpha strike capacity... now we get this guy... Lol

Me and Vics had an interesting game. I had first player with boarding trooper Vic I and ISD I plus Gozanti against his Sloane Boarding trooper Avenger plus Raiders.

Because I had deployment advantage my Vic was head on with his ISD. This meant on the critical turn the two ships were head to head.

My Vic went first, exhausted his tokens with squad token, sent in bombers with squad dial and then did 9 damage.....

The ISD respondd in kind but didnt kill it outright with its front arc. No it took a double arc to kill the Vic. Not much different to normal. Except my ISD found it easy to finish his off.

Long live the Vic I, the real home of boarding troopers.

My liberty was got one shot by a isd with boarding troops and vader avanger

Gee, that sounds pretty scary.

You know what will hard counter it?

4 MC30's and 3 GR-75's.

Not saying it's not a great combo, but come on. Doom and gloom over Avenger one-shotting things at close range? Did you guys just never use Avenger in the last 4 waves?

Sure, BT makes it more turnkey, but a squadron command with bombers did pretty much the same thing before. Either spend those redirects or eat a bunch of plink damage right to the hull zone that's about to take 8 damage.

Yes, Demolisher got nerfed for doing this, but it got nerfed because it did this for 90-98 points. This Avenger build you're looking at closer to 130-140, AND it's a one-shot, AND it's slower. This is not remotely comparable to the power levels of the Clonisher menace. It's a comparable construct, but so is every single other fleet that relies on last/first for a big one-shot.

/rant

I took this combo to two different Store Championships this weekend. Let me tell you when it doesn't work:

1) Lando - Sure Lando isn't a guarantee, but he turned a big burst of damage into a pathetic blip.

2) Targeting Scrambler - You need to be in close range to pull the trick off, and guess where Targeting Scrambler works?

3) Not following up the hit - Yes, you just exhausted all of their tokens, and hit them hard. But if they survived it, you've burned your one trick this game.

This is not Demo triple tap. This is a once per game hit of ~8 damage, not a Ram, 6+APT (Intel the Brace!), Ram, 6+ APT (Intel the Brace Again if you haven't used it!), 6+APT, Ram, Ram.

That being said it does work very well against certain things. Those things are:

Assault Frigates - 9 hull from the side arc means you can eat one REAL quick. Get a lucky enough roll and you can ace one.

Admonition (MC30) - 7 hull + 1 discarded die. Still probably a dead Admonition.

Makes it an excellent counter for stupid squadron shenanigans, because it has the hull / shields / tokens to eat some squadron fire on the approach.

"Getting lucky" is for those too afraid to embrace the full power of the force. Kneel at the feet of Lord Vader and you will one shot anything save another ISD with a double arc.

(Seriously, Vader loves Avenger/Boarding Troopers)