So I have been thinking about how Shugenja and Kami work in that card game. I did not play much of the old CCG I do not really know what they had. But I know what I would like to see.

(I have a couple ideas but I am more interested in your ideas)

Shugenja - I liked the old spell attachments. But what about Neutral conflict characters Elemental Kami that require a Shugenja to play. A giant stone bear, a cat made of air whispering secrets to draw cards. A dark beast that dishonors a Shugenja when you play it.

I feel like this would give a few more neutral cards that would help Phoenix a lot and other clans a bit. Let water help Unicorn and fire dragon. And let them all help Phoenix.

On a similar idea were there any decent monk attachments that added flavor? I only remember a tattoo that gave fire breathing, and I thought it was dumb every one in the dragon clan could breath fire.

I'd like to see Shugenja who get bonuses if the conflict's ring is of the right element. It'd make all that Phoenix ring-swapping tech really powerful.

For example:

Student of Water

Shugenja. 2 Fate, 1 Mil, 2 Pol, 2 Glory.

Rules Text: This character does not bow at the conclusion of a Water conflict.

Flavour Text: "Oceans do not fear the shore."

Master of Earth

Shugenja. 2 Fate, 1 Mil, 1 Pol, 1 Glory.

Rules Text: While participating in an Earth conflict, this character has +3 Mil and +3 Pol skill.

I think it would be nice if all these Traits would have some mechanical purpose in the game. For example, bonuses from like the ones mentioned above when the Shugenja's elemental trait matches the conflict type, or some sort of benefit from using spells with shugenja of the same trait/conflicts of the same element. But that may be biased from my previous experience where traits were really keywords with mechanics explained in the main ruleset, rather than having to be written out on the card.

2 hours ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

I'd like to see Shugenja who get bonuses if the conflict's ring is of the right element.

Personally, I would not.

It's a great idea in theory, but (at least how AEG did it with elemental key words) in practice you end up with cards that are only good sometimes. I'd rather get cards that are good all of the time.

2 hours ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

Personally, I would not.

It's a great idea in theory, but (at least how AEG did it with elemental key words) in practice you end up with cards that are only good sometimes. I'd rather get cards that are good all of the time.

We actually have one of these already: Isawa Masahiro gets to blow people up if the conflict ring is Fire.

The problem with AEG's attempt to match things up was that it was trying to make a randomly drawn card good when another randomly drawn card was in play. 2 instances of randomness made it very hard to pull of reliably.

By having elemental bonus effects linked to the conflict type, it removes one element of the randomness. You as a player can guarantee that a particular ring is used on any turn, meaning that you have cards that are only good when you choose. I'd get behind that.

7 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

The problem with AEG's attempt to match things up was that it was trying to make a randomly drawn card good when another randomly drawn card was in play. 2 instances of randomness made it very hard to pull of reliably.

It's happen with many card games that try to use "X works only if Y is in play", and in CCG it rarely worked unless you wanted to play thematic kitchen table games (lot of yojimbo/shugenja decks). On the opposite in CCG were also cards that got special kickers that were activated by specific keyword with additional conditional traits like "gain 2 honor when attached to Air shugenja", "this spell's Fear has +1 strength if attached to Fire guy" etc. and this type of much more reasonable design was really popular in last arcs. Cards were playable on their own but get better effects if you build your decks in specific way.

5 hours ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

I think it would be nice if all these Traits would have some mechanical purpose in the game. For example, bonuses from like the ones mentioned above when the Shugenja's elemental trait matches the conflict type, or some sort of benefit from using spells with shugenja of the same trait/conflicts of the same element. But that may be biased from my previous experience where traits were really keywords with mechanics explained in the main ruleset, rather than having to be written out on the card.

Agreed. We have not seen anything that effects a duelist yet. And I know I would like to see something like tactician and magistrate come back.

There was another thread where someone mentioned that archer cult be a trait with some card bonuses too.

6 hours ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

I'd like to see Shugenja who get bonuses if the conflict's ring is of the right element. It'd make all that Phoenix ring-swapping tech really powerful.

For example:

Student of Water

Shugenja. 2 Fate, 1 Mil, 2 Pol, 2 Glory.

Rules Text: This character does not bow at the conclusion of a Water conflict.

Flavour Text: "Oceans do not fear the shore."

Master of Earth

Shugenja. 2 Fate, 1 Mil, 1 Pol, 1 Glory.

Rules Text: While participating in an Earth conflict, this character has +3 Mil and +3 Pol skill.

I really like this, but this might be phoenix thing more than a Shugenja thing.

I don't really expect to see many monks playing with fate the way the dragon monks do it.

What were some of the best or most flavorful shugenja cards in the past?

13 minutes ago, Devin-the-Poet said:

I really like this, but this might be phoenix thing more than a Shugenja thing.

I don't really expect to see many monks playing with fate the way the dragon monks do it.

That's a good point. It would make a good Phoenix sub-theme, given that they already have cards that manipulate which element the conflict is.

6 hours ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

I think it would be nice if all these Traits would have some mechanical purpose in the game. For example, bonuses from like the ones mentioned above when the Shugenja's elemental trait matches the conflict type, or some sort of benefit from using spells with shugenja of the same trait/conflicts of the same element. But that may be biased from my previous experience where traits were really keywords with mechanics explained in the main ruleset, rather than having to be written out on the card.

I'd like to argue against this. If every trait has its own little bonus ("Bushi" does X, "Champion" does Y, etc) then it means that cards end up being a baroque collection of lots of different aspects, and makes the board state very difficult to keep in your head at once. That's not a pleasant play experience, IMHO, and would increase the accessibility barrier of the game.

8 minutes ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

I'd like to argue against this. If every trait has its own little bonus ("Bushi" does X, "Champion" does Y, etc) then it means that cards end up being a baroque collection of lots of different aspects, and makes the board state very difficult to keep in your head at once. That's not a pleasant play experience, IMHO, and would increase the accessibility barrier of the game.

That's true... What about cards that use two? If you have a courtier or magistrate. If you have a monk or shugenja. This makes the cards more inclusive but still add value to the traits.

What about cards that do a little more for having more? Like a giant spell that is better for each shugenja you have. Or monk. Or a strategy that is better for each tactician. There is already a card like this for Bushi . (For greater glory) the more Bushi the greater the risk and reward.

31 minutes ago, Devin-the-Poet said:

What about cards that do a little more for having more? Like a giant spell that is better for each shugenja you have. Or monk. Or a strategy that is better for each tactician. There is already a card like this for Bushi . (For greater glory) the more Bushi the greater the risk and reward.

In the CCG there were Ritual Spell cards that produced an effect that got better with the number of Shugenja that you bowed when you cast it.

or just required multiple Shugenja to cast

I don't think there is any issue with having cards require certain traits to be in play to use, such as we have with Shugenja and Bushi. I don't doubt we'll have some that you can only play with a courtier, or magistrate in the future as the card pool expands to make these triggers viable. Giving them inherit mechanics isn't so great though, as it boats the rules and makes the game harder to learn, and makes it harder to judge the power of a card.

I like the idea of Shugenja from all clans being involved with the ring chosen for the battle OR rings claimed. The Phoenix would be the only clan that would focus on all of them - and it would make Void Shugenja really cool for it, but Scorpion could have Shugenja that require the air ring and it would still fit the theme - it would also add another layer of game play where a specific ring may become more important. Attacking the Air ring when you go first so that you can claim it preventing Scorpion from playing a Secrets on the Wind to dishonor you out for example. Or if Scorpion is attacking air, even though they can't break the province - the threat of them claiming the ring to activate Shugenja effects may provide incentive for you to fight a bit harder to win the conflict.

So I see two great mechanics - one is if the conflict is that ring type, such as the Phoenix Fire guy, but then also one that gives you some activation / bonus if you have claimed a certain ring that turn.

1 hour ago, Devin-the-Poet said:

That's true... What about cards that use two? If you have a courtier or magistrate. If you have a monk or shugenja. This makes the cards more inclusive but still add value to the traits.

If I understand correctly, you mean something like:

Vigilant Saibankan

1 Fate. +1 Mil, +1 Pol. Attachment. Keyword: Follower.

Rules Text: If this card is attached to a Courtier or Magistrate character, they may be declared as a defender against Covert characters.

2 minutes ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

If I understand correctly, you mean something like:

Vigilant Saibankan

1 Fate. +1 Mil, +1 Pol. Attachment. Keyword: Follower.

Rules Text: If this card is attached to a Courtier or Magistrate character, they may be declared as a defender against Covert characters.

Exactly. Cards that play off of two traits make it so that monk cards aren't only for Dragon clan. I still want non Scorpion shinobi but it is something they would have more of.

51 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

In the CCG there were Ritual Spell cards that produced an effect that got better with the number of Shugenja that you bowed when you cast it.

or just required multiple Shugenja to cast

These are awesome. Any chance we could get something similar for monk or even courtiers? ... Shinobi?

I'm really enjoying designing cards for this game. If I was better at Photoshop, I'd totally put some homebrews together.

7 hours ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

I'd like to argue against this. If every trait has its own little bonus ("Bushi" does X, "Champion" does Y, etc) then it means that cards end up being a baroque collection of lots of different aspects, and makes the board state very difficult to keep in your head at once. That's not a pleasant play experience, IMHO, and would increase the accessibility barrier of the game.

I think my explanation was poorly worded, as i agree with you. What I would like to see is more traits serving a purpose, like for example the cards that target bushi. I'm sure there's more to come eventually, it just seems like there's a lot of traits that feel meaningless at the moment.

11 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

We actually have one of these already: Isawa Masahiro gets to blow people up if the conflict ring is Fire.

Actually, he's a really good example of the point I'm trying to make; his ability only works during Fire conflicts. I'd rather a personality I can use in any conflict. (Though we haven't seen all of the ring manipulation available to the Phoenix yet, so who knows, maybe FFG will get it right.)

And again, in theory I like the idea of cards that have good abilities that become great abilities if they match the conflict element, but it my experience what you see more of is a very underwhelming ability that becomes merely very average when the element condition is met. As a Phoenix player back in the day I just found myself looking wistfully across the table at all my opponents personalities that just straight up had good abilities from the start.

15 minutes ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

Actually, he's a really good example of the point I'm trying to make; his ability only works during Fire conflicts. I'd rather a personality I can use in any conflict. (Though we haven't seen all of the ring manipulation available to the Phoenix yet, so who knows, maybe FFG will get it right.)

And again, in theory I like the idea of cards that have good abilities that become great abilities if they match the conflict element, but it my experience what you see more of is a very underwhelming ability that becomes merely very average when the element condition is met. As a Phoenix player back in the day I just found myself looking wistfully across the table at all my opponents personalities that just straight up had good abilities from the start.

I feel you on this. There were some VERY situational abilities before that were... very not worth having... and the stats weren't that great either. I do like the idea of abilities that are activated based on having that ring claimed, or in a conflict of that ring type. This lets you gain power in a MIL or POL conflict based on the ring rather than the type of conflict which allows the Phoenix to access power unlike other clans.

I'm a bit concerned with Isawa Masahiro because he needs to bow to activate his ability that is already conditionally available. His ability only targets characters cost 2 or less so his primary targets will be the Doomed Shugenjas, and Hiruma Yojimbos that are cheap and strong, so it is has 2 conditions really. If there isn't a cheap AND strong personality out, his ability is kinda worthless. If you didn't have to bow him, then even taking out a 1 force character could help, but bowing him? That feels like too much. The actual change in stats may be just 1-2 points since you're removing his strength too.

Compare this to Raitsugu who does not bow to issue his challenge, and can remove a character without fate - even a champion. I would say Raitsugu's ability is also "conditionally available" in that you would likely only use it when you can assure yourself victory, and you can create a much larger power swing since you can remove a character AND keep Raitsugu's stats in the conflict... I guess you can point out that Masahiro doesn't have to be in the conflict, but his stats don't scream "leave me home" either. Whether he is bowed at home or bowed at a conflict, does it really matter?

Unless Phoenix have some ways to straighten shugenja idk how great these abilities will be in live play...

Somewhat along the lines of this thread's intentions, and I do apologize if I seem like I'm hijacking it, but; I wanted to ask about Togashi as I still believe that she is one of the weakest cards that have been revealed, from all of the Clan cards that we have seen.

If you could redesign Togashi Kazue, what would you do to its stats and/or abilities?

Again, my apologies for posting this question here. ?

1 hour ago, LordBlunt said:

SoMe what along the long the lines of this thread's intentions, and I do apologize if I seem like I'm hijacking it, but; I wanted to ask about Togashi as I still believe that she is one of the weakest cards that have been revealed, from all of the Clan cards that we have seen.

If you could redesign Togashi Kazue, what would you do its her stats and/or abilities?

Again, my apologies for posting this question here. ?

I agree - as a character she is 3/3 for 3, and no ability, which isn't that great. As an attachment she is 3 cost to steal 1 fate... That's a large investment up front for a potential pay off you may never receive.

It doesn't even give the character the ability so WotD can't combo with it...

If there were to be any changes I would want it to combo with WotD by giving the ability to the character rather than from the attachment. This change alone would make the card appealing as the synergy of WotD, Kazue and the character's other ability such as Raigutsu could lead to some serious bloodshed. The card would still be bad in a vacuum, but it would be great in combo which also fits the Dragon.

On 7/26/2017 at 9:26 PM, shosuko said:

I agree - as a character she is 3/3 for 3, and no ability, which isn't that great. As an attachment she is 3 cost to steal 1 fate... That's a large investment up front for a potential pay off you may never receive.

It doesn't even give the character the ability so WotD can't combo with it...

If there were to be any changes I would want it to combo with WotD by giving the ability to the character rather than from the attachment. This change alone would make the card appealing as the synergy of WotD, Kazue and the character's other ability such as Raigutsu could lead to some serious bloodshed. The card would still be bad in a vacuum, but it would be great in combo which also fits the Dragon.

I just saw my brother, who is a pretty solid player get trashed by a new guy who played Kazue on Raitsugo on the first turn. Turn two he still had two fate and only defended with him whenever attacked by someone with fate.

He only lost because he was brand new and forgot about losing honor from not defending on the last turn.

Kazue has a time and place and I have seen it.