9 hours ago, xstormtrooperx said:

Really? I normally really like your objetive view on things, with most I conform.

But the shadow caster is a nightmare designwise for me. If the shadow caster would have NO primary arc I would agree with you. But as it is, it is just like a PWT - only stronger (NO autothrusters, counts as arc for tactican). How many times does a Shadow caster have to move its firing arc? Once a game at most. Thats why you never see the Gyroscopic Targeting - because you normally simply don´´t need it! It works better than a PWT and is costed less.

The Shadowcaster should only have a single arc. It could just shift it around and have it count as its primary.

As it is now, there is no reason to take the Firespray. Compare the costs, the dials (Jesus Christ the Shadowcaster dial), and the dual arcs that they both have.

Firespray has arcs locked backwards and forwards. Shadowcaster can set it where it wants, including front and back, and set it side ways which is the more useful configuration for most situations.

The icing on the cake is that forward and rear facing arcs aren't actually 90 degrees, they're 88 or 89 degrees approximately, so a Lancer with its arc set to the side has even more coverage than the Firespray.

If Parattanni players had to settle for a Mandalorian Mercenary instead of Asajj, I think that build would have been much more reasonable.

12 hours ago, ABXY said:

9/10 for the analogy...

... you could have gotten 10 with:

I should have also mentioned a generous portion of salt on the rim

There are 5 ships in the whole game that fit the description in the title. You can get versions with 2 dice for 23-36 points. 3 dice versions cost 38-46 points. These are not cheap ships, 2 of them can't turn around and one faction can only take one 3 dice 1-3 360 total.

They are still very powerful of course. It is a massive advantage, but you pay for it in points.(these ships have other problems of course, the slots/dial/green dice of the the jumpmaster make the 'only one 3 red dice' title cost backfire; the dials on the YTs are also very good for a large base. The ships have problems that are exacerbated by the 360 primaries for sure.)

21 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Apologize if i got snarky.

Definitely taking the last one as the main approach! Your ultimately right about this.

But still holding out hope that FFG does more than just autothrusters to scale back PWTs.

Ultimately, it's dealable with.

The Falcon, or its equivalents, can be beaten without autothrusters, too. The single uber-modified-3-dice-primary sounds (and is) great, but if you spend 50+ points on one 3-dice attack; it's going to lose badly to the 2-3 3-dice attacks that 'normal' fighters get if they can keep themselves lined up on the big ship.

The usual 'key' to this is blocking it; Big ships don't like lower PS small ships 'getting in the way', because their base occupies a lot of area and blocking them is actually easier than you'd think.

Paired up with newer abilies like Snap shot (an elite talent which essentially gives you a free shot if something finishes its move within your arc at range 1) and a big ship blocked by a swarm can get shredded like it's been pushed into a woodchipper.

What sort of ships are you actually wanting to use?

@Magnus Grendel

@codegnave

Played and enjoyed the hell out of 30 games total won 3. All with some variation on this:

I really enjoy the playstyle and 2 of my wins have come against big turret boats, Rey/Norra and RAC/Kylo. With Lone Wolf and Countermeasures Boba can finally stay alive an extra round or two to make up for the one or two rounds where he ends up without a shot in arc.

What strikes me as odd is the Point cost argument people keep using.

These 360 full range turret boats are not really that expensive in comparison to the amount of work I have to put in to land shots and survive with other large or small arc based ships.

A few examples:

I have to be aggressive and burn ships like these down fast because every turn im inevitably defending against at minimum a 3 dice modified shot since they basically never boost or barrel roll and can afford to focus or target lock a higher % of the time.

If i screw up I dont get to attack them and I take incoming attacks constantly. If they screw up the worst thing that happens is they still roll 3 dice and have basically an Infinitely higher chance to avoid my Arcs. The point balance comments just seem like total insanity as a new player, and the idea that they have low agility doesnt really hold up either. They flat out dont.

People have told me not to use Advanced Sensors because its a crutch, or not to use Navigator because its a crutch. But these full range 3 dice turrets are like Tiny Tim's tricked out crutch and golden safety blanket. Game is still tons of fun and these matchups are by no means unbeatable...you can learn to be aggressive and win the HP countdown.

But **** is it alot more effort for the same # of points.

The Shadowcaster's turret really operates much differently in the show than say the Millenium Falcon's turret. I think they have represented both very well. In the show, the Shadowcaster has both forward facing weapons (primary firing arc) and a turret that the pilot has to turn while also flying. This is why the pilot has to use an action to turn the turret instead of taking some other action, as turning the turret should be a distraction to the pilot.

This mechanic though would make no sense on a ship like the Falcon. On that ship the pilot has nothing to do with the firing of the turrets, as it is separate crew operating them. So it wouldn't make any sense for the pilot to use an action to turn the turrets. In addition, the Falcon actually has 2 independent turrets operating by 2 separate crew members. If we wanted to both use the mobile firing arc mechanic and keep it thematic, the Falcon should have 2 mobile firing arcs, no primary firing arc except for missiles, and be able to turn both mobile firing arcs without the use of an action. At that point though you might as well just keep the existing 360 turret mechanic as is.

On 15/07/2017 at 11:55 PM, StevenO said:

Because you put a weapon on a mount that can turn a significant amount and cover a vast area instead of the very narrow band for a fixed weapon and you have a weapon that can shoot any direction just as far as any fixed weapon could.

What SHOULDN'T there be weapons that can target in any direct and at any range? Oh, that's right. It's just because YOU DON'T LIKE THEM!

Turret are extremely hard to hit in real life. If you ever played Battlefield 1942 you would know it. (and would trade a 360 turret (OK, that doesn't exist) by a fixed gun (manned by the pilot) every time)

Hitting with fixed gun is also hard. How hard it is to hit something with a turret depends on many factors but so does any other attack. If you incorporate modern fire controls into your turrets you'll be hitting targets you may have had no chance at hitting in WWII. If turrets are so inaccurate what do point defense systems on warships use? Maybe it's not the most current system but I believe the phalanx system was on a turret and built to hit extremely hard to hit targets.

@Boom Owl

People tell you not to use advanced sensors because fire control system is better in that slot. If you have that much experience under your belt you don't need to move right after decloaking with the phantom. A second problem with your list is that the firespray is not a good ship when compared to other similarly costed ships available in the game. It also, frankly, does not compliment the phantom.

If your opponents are playing a lot of turret ships then if you want to defeat them with some frequency you need to bring the mechanics that counter turrets, this includes upgrades like autothrusters, turrets of your own, boost and barrel roll at high pilot skill, a greater number of ship to block your opponents large base ships, denying them actions.

All of the ships you mentioned have 1-2 evade dice. That IS the high end for turret ships, but it isn't very much anymore, most good ships tend to have three attack dice, and they cost much less than a firespray or phantom.

I know it might not be what you want to hear, but some mechanics in this game beat other mechanics in a rock/paper/scissors fashion, if you know that your local play group plays a lot of the type of ship that your are not a good match for, then you need counter them.

Of course, if you want to play more casually, you should let them know! Play some games sticking to ships from the movies, or ships from earlier waves. If everyone is playing Rey and Dengar, then yea you aren't going to have fun with Boba Fett, a pilot/ship that needs some help from FFG to bring it in line with more recent releases!

22 minutes ago, StevenO said:

Hitting with fixed gun is also hard. How hard it is to hit something with a turret depends on many factors but so does any other attack. If you incorporate modern fire controls into your turrets you'll be hitting targets you may have had no chance at hitting in WWII. If turrets are so inaccurate what do point defense systems on warships use? Maybe it's not the most current system but I believe the phalanx system was on a turret and built to hit extremely hard to hit targets.

But clearly the Star Wars ships don't function on real world logic , or the X-Wing wouldn't look like a fighter jet, because aerodynamics have no place in space combat. We put up with things that look cool and are fun in Star Wars, even if they break logic. I would argue the opposite as well, that if something isn't fun (like a PWT), it has no place in Star Wars, or more specifically, in X-Wing TMG.

It was fun when Han and Luke HAD to man the turret to fight the TIE Fighters. Much less fun if the scene had been a turret with an automatic, 360 degree swiveling defense system and they all just sat in the cockpit together and waited.

7 hours ago, StevenO said:

Hitting with fixed gun is also hard. How hard it is to hit something with a turret depends on many factors but so does any other attack. If you incorporate modern fire controls into your turrets you'll be hitting targets you may have had no chance at hitting in WWII. If turrets are so inaccurate what do point defense systems on warships use? Maybe it's not the most current system but I believe the phalanx system was on a turret and built to hit extremely hard to hit targets.

(impersonating those Arc Dodgers with inferiority complex) because it takes more skill to move outside of a firing arc after everyone else has made their move.

but to be fair Star Wars acts more like WW2 than say modern naval combat. However my counterargument to all those that said the Millennium Falcon should have been a Mobile Firing arc like the Lancer is that the Falcon had two sets of turrets. So using that logic it should have two attacks at firepower 4 no less. They should be grateful it is only one 360 attacks at firepower 3. But since they don't know how to counter and play against they are not so the fault clearly can't be with "them" it has to be with the "game".

9 hours ago, HammerGibbens said:

But clearly the Star Wars ships don't function on real world logic , or the X-Wing wouldn't look like a fighter jet, because aerodynamics have no place in space combat.

Well... Capital ships move like boats. Lack of thrust stops ships. There are whale-type animals that swim in Star Wars space. A simple helmet with what looks like rubber neck section seems to be enough for Sabine, Ezra, Kanan and all stormtroopers to survive in space...

Most likely, Star Wars space is a fluid, not vacuum. But I bet Lucas didn't put much thought on this.

18 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

@Magnus Grendel

@codegnave

Played and enjoyed the hell out of 30 games total won 3. All with some variation on this:

"Whisper" — TIE Phantom	32
Veteran Instincts	1
Advanced Sensors	3
Recon Specialist	3
Advanced Cloaking Device	4
Ship Total: 43
Boba Fett — Firespray-31	39
Lone Wolf	2
Heavy Laser Cannon	7
Recon Specialist	3
Countermeasures	3
Ship Total: 54

I really enjoy the playstyle and 2 of my wins have come against big turret boats, Rey/Norra and RAC/Kylo. With Lone Wolf and Countermeasures Boba can finally stay alive an extra round or two to make up for the one or two rounds where he ends up without a shot in arc.

What strikes me as odd is the Point cost argument people keep using.

These 360 full range turret boats are not really that expensive in comparison to the amount of work I have to put in to land shots and survive with other large or small arc based ships.

A few examples:

Dash Rendar — YT-2400	36
Lone Wolf	2
"Mangler" Cannon	4
Rey	2
Countermeasures	3
Outrider	5
Ship Total: 52 Rey — YT-1300 45 Expertise 4 Engine Upgrade 4 Millennium Falcon (TFA) 1 Ship Total: 54 Dengar — JumpMaster 5000 33 Expertise 4 Engine Upgrade 4 Punishing One 12 Ship Total: 53

I have to be aggressive and burn ships like these down fast because every turn im inevitably defending against at minimum a 3 dice modified shot since they basically never boost or barrel roll and can afford to focus or target lock a higher % of the time.

If i screw up I dont get to attack them and I take incoming attacks constantly. If they screw up the worst thing that happens is they still roll 3 dice and have basically an Infinitely higher chance to avoid my Arcs. The point balance comments just seem like total insanity as a new player, and the idea that they have low agility doesnt really hold up either. They flat out dont.

People have told me not to use Advanced Sensors because its a crutch, or not to use Navigator because its a crutch. But these full range 3 dice turrets are like Tiny Tim's tricked out crutch and golden safety blanket. Game is still tons of fun and these matchups are by no means unbeatable...you can learn to be aggressive and win the HP countdown.

But **** is it alot more effort for the same # of points.

Kudos for the squad - it's nice to see someone using imperial Boba Fett. And yes, Boba with Countermeasures is surprisingly tough. I've seen the scum version with Lone Wolf, Glitterstim and Countermeasures go full "I am a leaf on the wind" mode and fly through 8 twin laser turret shots in succession without taking a scratch.

Hmm.

Answering points in some sort of order:

• I'm not trying to defend this ships as 'not really powerful', just as 'beatable. They are definitely harsh.
• If they boost or barrel roll, (which is an easy answer to trying to avoid fire from an arc-locked ship) then it costs them an action they could otherwise use to modify dice. Most of them tend to have some 'built in' - Dengar or Agent Kallus crew, Predator or Expertise, or whatever - but anything you can do to stack the dice rolls helps.
• Dash specifically suffers in this matchup because he's "only" PS7 (meaning he has to guess whether a barrel roll is a good idea or not before you move), and because Lone Wolf is an elite upgrade that means he has trouble getting support from other ships in your squad.
• The comment that 'scum only have a single range 1-3 3-dice primary turret ship' is true, but you wouldn't know it given the sheer number of squads you see with Dengar in them!
• The comment about 'low agility' is usually meant referring to Han Solo/Chewbacca (1) and Rear Admiral Chiraneau (0). Dash and Dengar are agility 2 (same as Boba) but Dengar has one hit less. Rey is an odd beast - essentially a pilot ability-less ship outside her arc but freakin' brutal within it; I've rarely ever seen her without Finn because the two combine so well; I've never seen her flown so cut-down as the build you suggest.
• Yes, they are continuously throwing 3-dice primary attacks at you, but you can dodge them reasonably well; the main advantage you have isn't Boba Fett; it's the fact that you can have a no-expense-spared Whisper as your wingman, whilst they need to make compromises (even if only 3-4 points worth) on the ace they want supporting them.
• Navigator is hardly a devastating crutch. To use it properly, Boba Fett also needs Veteran Instincts (to be able to react to PS8/9 ships) and ideally engine upgrade too - at that point, getting shots is trivial but getting any modification on them quite hard, and Advanced Sensors is nowhere near as scary as Fire Control System - if anything, it's a more skilful choice, as it lets you put the phantom places that it couldn't normally get.
• Ultimately, let me say this: the Imperial version of the Firespray is generally considered one of the weakest ships in the game (for a variety of reasons); most things are a bit of an uphill struggle by comparison. Yes it has an auxiliary arc but its dial is not great - I've often seen people suggest Expert Handling as a way to give it some much needed manouvrability. There are some tricks that work (like you noted, if you don't need engine upgrade, countermeasures is a very nice upgrade) and some of them are very good counters to some of the ships above. Rebel Captive is a great counter to expertise, whilst Agent Kallus is a superb effect for pocket change in a 1-to-1 duel, and a scary good pairing with Lone Wolf. Above all, it generally seems important to try and build your Firespray tight on points; you have a small points advantage over the Falcons and the Decimators and so on; but with careful investment it's not impossible to parley that into a fairly big one.
• Do you actually feel like you get your money's worth from Heavy Laser Cannon? That's a big whack of expense, but most of the time with a firespray I always find myself using the tail guns as often as the main guns (I used to run triple bounty hunters back in the day)
• The Auxiliary Arc does also have one thing going for it over a turret - your tail guns count as 'in your arc' - this means no autothrusters, and stuff like Tactician works (stressing an opponent is a very nice way to even out any imbalance in manoeuvrability). Plus you get the awesome Tail Gunner card - taking a protectorate fighter from 3 green dice with autothrusters to 2 green dice without autothrusters is a serious dent in their defences...
• The Slave 1 title is a weird one - it's not in any way illogical but having fett's title add a slot you never see used (as opposed to cannon - autoblasters, missiles -homing missiles, and bombs - seismic charges). But, it is a very useful slot for two reasons: you can pack in Extra Munitions - meaning those 7-8 points could be a pair of missiles, which will probably get you the same mileage as the cannon with some nice secondary effects, plus guidance chips, or else the free title gives you a slot to unlock the free modification long range scanners.

Essentially, Fett's advantages to me over similar cost/sized ships (different advantages over different ships) are:

1. A PS advantage over anyone in an Outrider or Shadowcaster. PS advantage is generally good, and his ability (whilst one of the weakest ones any PS8 pilot has) does magnify that edge (slightly)
2. Native evade action not available to decimators and falcons (without the right title). Irrelevant without the action economy to support it, but with the right upgrades dice modification can attend to itself and the evade token does go a long way to magnifying your toughness edge of base agility 2 compared to the agility 1 and agility 0 large ships
3. The ability to use 'in arc' abilities like tactician or outmanoeuvre (or indeed ignore someone else's outmanoeuvre) , and access to tail gunner
4. The awesome imperial-only crew (kallus, rebel captive) that scum and rebels don't have
5. The ability to take extra munitions missiles
6. the ability to take long range scanners

does it make him devastating? Hell no. There's a reason Dengar is on every third board at a major event and Boba Fett isn't. But can he pull his weight if built leanly and sensibly? I think so.