New player looking for a history lesson .

Why are full 360 range 1-3 turrets part of gameplay?

As a new player it still feels like ships with the ability to take shots regardless of arc or range are at odds with the overall gameplay found in the core game and the loop of choosing, bluffing, and predicting movements.

Not saying turrets shouldnt exist. But shouldnt they at least require range control in all cases or shadowcaster style arc actions?

Wondering why 360 range 1-3 weapons are not complained about more often. Seems like having ships that can do that altered the direction of x-wing a long time ago or something and their just accepted as part of the game now. Sticks out like a sore thumb as being kinda out of place though. Even on the Millenium Falcon.

Feels fundamentally like a much bigger deal than biggsy, emo darth vader showing stuff, or even TLT.

Disclaimer: I dont think their overpowered or impossible to beat. Thats not my question. More interested in why it exists at all and what value it adds to gameplay.

It's a design flaw and they recognise it as such. They're trying to correct it by making turrets and pilots that reward having your target in your arc (synced, Rey) or coming up with new mechanics entirely (mobile arc).

The first one was, I believe, the YT-1300 in Millenium Falcon. This was Wave 2 I think? Really early in the game and really changed everything.

I do agree that not having to worry about anything and just fly wherever the hell you want kinda goes against the spirit of the game.

We generally don't complain about them because they've been a thing for so long. They should have used mobile arcs like the shadowcaster all along, but they didn't. So it is what it is.

Because you put a weapon on a mount that can turn a significant amount and cover a vast area instead of the very narrow band for a fixed weapon and you have a weapon that can shoot any direction just as far as any fixed weapon could.

What SHOULDN'T there be weapons that can target in any direct and at any range? Oh, that's right. It's just because YOU DON'T LIKE THEM!

7 minutes ago, StevenO said:

What SHOULDN'T there be weapons that can target in any direct and at any range? Oh, that's right. It's just because YOU DON'T LIKE THEM!

Or perhaps because it goes a long way to pushing any generic (and a lot of named) ships that rely on green dice, arcs, and have no access to autothrusters (also a design issue) off the table in both casual and competitive formats. Not that there aren't other factors that come into play, but I think this is a biggie.

6 minutes ago, StevenO said:

Because you put a weapon on a mount that can turn a significant amount and cover a vast area instead of the very narrow band for a fixed weapon and you have a weapon that can shoot any direction just as far as any fixed weapon could.

What SHOULDN'T there be weapons that can target in any direct and at any range? Oh, that's right. It's just because YOU DON'T LIKE THEM!

I believe the OP was wondering about the game mechanics, not the lore.

The turrets generally suffer from expensive frames and lack of offense, but kinda make up for it with the turret arc. This means that beginner players struggle against them, because they can't predict the turret movement effectively enough to compensate with their superior numbers. However, once you get some experience, you realise that you can, in fact, predict turrets fairly easily, and they die quite fast, too. The exception to this is the Jumpmaster 5000, which is broken in every way and we all know it.

Just now, Test Pilot said:

Or perhaps because it goes a long way to pushing any generic (and a lot of named) ships that rely on green dice, arcs, and have no access to autothrusters (also a design issue) off the table in both casual and competitive formats. Not that there aren't other factors that come into play, but I think this is a biggie.

Of course it's also so much more fun to play when you can just concentrate on flying your ships and avoid hitting the junk in the way while still getting to shoot at those anying ******* ships that don't seem to want to play with you.

Just now, Astech said:

I believe the OP was wondering about the game mechanics, not the lore.

The turrets generally suffer from expensive frames and lack of offense, but kinda make up for it with the turret arc. This means that beginner players struggle against them, because they can't predict the turret movement effectively enough to compensate with their superior numbers. However, once you get some experience, you realise that you can, in fact, predict turrets fairly easily, and they die quite fast, too. The exception to this is the Jumpmaster 5000, which is broken in every way and we all know it.

Why do they exist from a game mechanics perspective? Pretty much the exact same reason they exist in a lore perspective. When it come to application it is infinitely easier just to allow a ship to follow all the existing attack mechanics except for the firing arc restriction than it is to start adding a bunch of red tape to use it.

Now when I read the OP I don't see much "wondering" but rather see someone who has something against the PWT and is just spewing out another NERF THE TURRET NOW!! thread.

The Falcon was a wave 2 release. That's a while back. Some players, like Hammer, think it's a design flaw. Others find it OP or just a pain in the rear. To me it's just a game mechanic.

As far as the range of 1-3, why shouldn't a large based ship have that ability? If you limited the range of PWTs to 1-2, that would make the low agility ships dead meat to anyone that could maintain a range 3 attack profile. Especially if using a secondary weapon like the HLC or Mangler. (No defensive range bonus)

There are trade-offs in this game to vary the mechanics and to keep things interesting. If you liken space combat to WW II dog fighting, then there's ample context for a 360°, R1-3 turret.

It was dumb then. Its still dumb now.

Its still breaking the game now: See Dengar.

It was,a holdover from wave 2, waaaaay back in thw game's infancy when FFG had no idea how much it would explode in popularity

It is obviously flawed design in a game based entirely around hiding and then revealing a chosen maneuver, but the designers didnt expect the game to last as long as it did back then.

Shadowcaster mobile arc is what the primary weapon turret should have always been, but thats wave 9

39 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Disclaimer: I dont think their overpowered or impossible to beat. Thats not my question. More interested in why it exists at all and what value it adds to gameplay.

The Millennium Falcon is a turret ship in the lore, so they tried to mimic that in game mechanics when it came out. Then came the reign of Fat Han and it was widely realized to be a bad idea. Add in some changes to tone them down (like Autothrusters) and then FFG started to re-imagine the mechanic. The Shadowcaster and its mobile arc was the result and overall a much more game-balance wise "fun" method of mimicking the turret effect of Star Wars ships in game.

The could not rightly remove the various PWT ships already in game, so they have been working on methods that reward active flying by the PWT user. Rey and Dengar are examples of this, as they get bonuses for fighting in arc, even though they are PWT ships.

Really curious how Dengar is breaking the game as a PWT. Here I though 2 dice primary attacks are useless so putting it on a spindle shouldn't change that. He has a nice ability that allow additional attacks but wait a second, those only work if the attacker is in his firing arc so the PWT doesn't change much there. Oh, maybe is it's that extremely expensive upgrade that actually gives his ship another die on its primary; that must be the game breaking part of it.

Everybody keeps saying that PWTs should be like the Shadowcaster with a mobile firing arc. The Shadowcaster can fire out of it's front arc regardless of the direction the mobile arc is pointing. Something they fail to mention. This is the only ship currently that has that ability.

2 minutes ago, StevenO said:

Why do they exist from a game mechanics perspective? Pretty much the exact same reason they exist in a lore perspective. When it come to application it is infinitely easier just to allow a ship to follow all the existing attack mechanics except for the firing arc restriction than it is to start adding a bunch of red tape to use it.

Now when I read the OP I don't see much "wondering" but rather see someone who has something against the PWT and is just spewing out another NERF THE TURRET NOW!! thread.

But they're mechanically boring - especially in comparison to the mobile arc. The OP makes a valid point - they take precious little skill to fly in comparison to standard front-arc ships. This is especially true for new players, but applies to all skill levels equally.

I'd like to see out-of-arc primary shots grant an extra evade die at all ranges. The only person who cares about it is Dengar, and he needs a nerf.

5 minutes ago, StevenO said:

Really curious how Dengar is breaking the game as a PWT. Here I though 2 dice primary attacks are useless so putting it on a spindle shouldn't change that. He has a nice ability that allow additional attacks but wait a second, those only work if the attacker is in his firing arc so the PWT doesn't change much there. Oh, maybe is it's that extremely expensive upgrade that actually gives his ship another die on its primary; that must be the game breaking part of it.

First of all, Dengar's retaliation can be a torpedo, so that's 4 dice from the best torp carrier in the game. Secondly, Dengar with Punishing One is 45 points - not so much for a PS9 ship throwing 6 dice a turn. In fact, that is the game breaking part of it - Punishing One is the card I'd get rid of if I Boba'd Dengar. At this point in the game, both Rey/Finn and Fat Han are not so bad - they can be fun to play against, and even lose to, because they're a little behind the power curve. It's just the JM5K clinging to the last vestiges of designer goodwill that's keeping the turret salt active.

3 minutes ago, StevenO said:

Really curious how Dengar is breaking the game as a PWT. Here I though 2 dice primary attacks are useless so putting it on a spindle shouldn't change that. He has a nice ability that allow additional attacks but wait a second, those only work if the attacker is in his firing arc so the PWT doesn't change much there. Oh, maybe is it's that extremely expensive upgrade that actually gives his ship another die on its primary; that must be the game breaking part of it.

Hey, I'd love to be able to fly PS9 with a mean ability and 3 power PWT and white sloop and barrel roll for only 45 points. But Han and RAC start at 46. With normal big-ship dials.

Dengar, even with his title, is hideously undercosted. Getting barrel roll on Rebel or Imperial PWT ships costs 2 points, my elite slot, and it stresses me. There is nothing I can do to mimic the white sloop. And Dengar is cheaper before you account for that. His upgrade bar is also drastically superior to Han's.

If we compare the low end of the ships, Contracted Scout is 2 points cheaper than Outer Rim Smuggler with the same innate advantages. If anything the disparity is greater here, since Scout has the same crowded upgrade bar while Smuggler loses most of it (the Scout even has an elite slot still, which is absurd for the bottom rung generic normally).

This is before we get to some of the stupid that comes from things like K4.

So Dengar is game breaking and it's all because of the PWT and has NOTHING to do that it happens to be on under prices supership.

14 minutes ago, Astech said:

It's just the JM5K clinging to the last vestiges of designer goodwill that's keeping the turret salt active.

I agree that the JM5K is probably the worst offender, but even the other PWT pancakes with crew/EPT synergies for action less mods are pretty troublesome. Scum just have the most potent (and confusing) combinations.

I don't mind PWT and turrets in concept. I do wish there were a mechanic that allowed other interesting ships like strikers to coexist more effectively on the table.

1 hour ago, Polaritie said:

Hey, I'd love to be able to fly PS9 with a mean ability and 3 power PWT and white sloop and barrel roll for only 45 points. But Han and RAC start at 46. With normal big-ship dials.

Dengar, even with his title, is hideously undercosted. Getting barrel roll on Rebel or Imperial PWT ships costs 2 points, my elite slot, and it stresses me. There is nothing I can do to mimic the white sloop. And Dengar is cheaper before you account for that. His upgrade bar is also drastically superior to Han's.

If we compare the low end of the ships, Contracted Scout is 2 points cheaper than Outer Rim Smuggler with the same innate advantages. If anything the disparity is greater here, since Scout has the same crowded upgrade bar while Smuggler loses most of it (the Scout even has an elite slot still, which is absurd for the bottom rung generic normally).

This is before we get to some of the stupid that comes from things like K4.

What do you think about Kanan Rey with strong PWT and technically white Sloop

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Did the player base used to complain about it and then just move on?

Complain, yes. Move on, no.

PWTs are an easy mechanic to represent a ship with a turret. I don't really mind it, though I get the arguments against it.

50 minutes ago, StevenO said:

So Dengar is game breaking and it's all because of the PWT and has NOTHING to do that it happens to be on under prices supership.

You seem very angry.

7 minutes ago, mkevans80 said:

You seem very angry.

Perception may vary. What would I be angry about? Someone saying Dengar is "game breaking" just because he happens to be on a ship with a PWT thus PWT=broken or because he's on a Jumpmaster and thus Jumpmaster = broken? Considering how many things have a PWT that aren't broken it seems to me the Jumpmaster is the real issue there which has little to do with the turret bashing thread.

Well.. since spades has been broken....

2 items, I feel, need to be addressed:

1) Accuracy. Torpedoes/Missiles and turrets need this. Torpedoes and turrets should be low accuracy high damage items. Missiles are high accuracy and low damage.

2) JM5K- That dial and cost. The dial should have 2 more red (right turns) and at least one less green. A lopsided ship should be very difficult to fly. (See the B-wing)

The first turret was the Falcon. I wasn't around during wave 2, but I know there were some double Falcon builds but I don't think they were dominant.

When the corvette came out, Rebels got C-3PO and R2-D2 crew. Then wave 4 came out soon(?) after.

Then people started running VI, FCS, ACD, Gunner Whisper before the decloak nerf. It completely dominated the game such that the only way to beat it was to bring a counter to it. And the best counter to it that didn't suck against everything else was a fat turret. With C-3PO, R2-D2 crew, and the evade title you can automatically shut off 3 damage a turn. This was also before large ship half MoV scoring, with 60 minute standard rounds. So what would happen is that these turrets would have engine upgrade, so they could boost out of shots constantly, and the single shot you did get would be mitigated. And then the Falcon at one health would allow your opponent to not lose any MoV.

When wave 5 came out that added 2 more fat turrets to the meta. After a while no one ran phantoms anymore, they just ran turrets. You think turrets are bad now, oh boy.

Eventually decloak was nerfed that way you couldn't do it omnisciently, and Autothrusters came out. The final nail in the fat turret problem was quad TLT in wave 7.

The reason why these are so prominent in the game is because the design team changed between wave 3 and 4. This is why the game's meta in wave 3 seems so reasonable and quaint, and waves 4 & 5 are full of obnoxious bull. I feel that had the original designers stuck with the game longer, this game would be better balanced. Alex Davy & Co. have done a great job turning this game into a train wreck. It's decently balanced now, at least until we see how wave 11 shakes out, but at certain points playing this game has been abysmal.
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reason why turrets are seeing a resurgence is because Dengar and Rey have white sloops which fat turrets absolutely SHOULD NOT have, and TLT has moved from being a fat turret counter to being utilized by fat turrets themselves on Miranda Doni and Kanan Biggs.

In short, while the Falcon was wave 2, it wasn't much of a problem until Alex Davy & Co. trashed the game.

PS: This game hit its stride popularity wise during the prime fat turret/phantom era, and that's when many players first started to do well competitively. What was once merely a no skill crutch is now a no skill crutch backed by nostalgia and a resentment for constantly being told how turrets took no skill even though that was completely true. That's why there are some apologists for this crap mechanic in this thread. Old crutches die hard.