I have some unclarities about sigmars comets and chaos stars:

1) Do they cancel each other out?

2) Can player always choose how to use sigmars comet (as success, boon or sigmars comet special, if available)?

3) Can a test fail with sigmar comet effect or pass with chaos star (this I think can happen like in spell miscast)?

4) Should sigmar comet be equivalent to "automatic 3 hammer success" in my own custom skill checks?

Please give me some advice how to interpret these symbols outside otherwise clear situations like combat criticals and spell miscasts.

stanmons said:

1) No

2) Yes

3) Yes on both counts

4) Not sure what your custom skill checks are

If there is no special action related to the comet or the star then they can be converted into a success or boon (comet) or bane (star). In that instance (boon/bane) they could cancel each other out.

If you are talking about interpreting the symbols without converting them as above, but instead using them for some "on the fly" GM ruling, then a chaos star should provide a nasty side effect, worse than a boon side effect in my opinion, whereas the comet makes the PC pass something either inceredibly well, or with some kind of benefical side effect.

Thanks for guidance. I think a good guideline for both sigmars comet and chaos star is using them as side-effects without no direct impact on success/failure.

we often use a chaos star rolled to indicate a conditional success. the player gets what they wanted but with some unforeseen and usually detrimental side effect. like if he was trying to find someone and he rolled a chaos star on his skill check, the person would know that the player was looking for them and would be ready when the player shows up, or maybe the person would have a negative disposition towards the player.

evilben said:

That's my GM call on Chaos Stars. why am I so nasty ? Because chaos star = 1 less failure (crossed swords) = more chance to get successes. So that success will be exhausting.

I wanted to point out that the rules state that Comets can also be converted to a critical in case of a succesful attack action so IMO there's no need for the "Comet = +3 successes" rule. It seems redundant.

I also feel free to interpret boons/banes and chaos stars as I like (as the GM). Boons can be picked by the player and all the rest is picked by the GM. But even on boons I feel free to add what I want. Last session a character got unconcious and another player failed her first aid roll but got a lot of boons. I called it so while she didn't manage to help his wounds, she managed to wake just him enough to shove a healing draught down his throat which did help a lot. I think she also picked to get one stress remove... don't see a problem. I probably would have given her one anyway after managing to revive her only ally.

Great game! I wish there could be some sort of document, a book of sorts, with all the rules in it. Like a rule book. I would pay money for it. Ok, I'm just teasing . Great game still. I don't think I even began to experience it to its fullest potential. And I'm talking about just the core set. I would love more expansions, specifically monsters with ther sheets and cards, but I think we will be gaming many more months to exhaust what we now have options-wise. Can't wait for that campaign though. Anything to make the GM's life easier.

Roy.

Vallenwood said:

You mean "success", don't you ?

I do agree with your whole point.

willmanx said:

Nope, he means critical.

A comet can be used to trigger the critical effect of a weapon (i.e. turn a wound into a critical wound), or be counted as a success, or be counted as a boon.

I think you would still need to hit with the weapon (i.e. have sufficient overall successes to trigger at least the single success line on the card) to then use the sigmars comet to cause a critical.

lol, well i guess you dont need to actually hit them to make it a critical, i just dont think converting one of those zero wounds you just did to a critical is going to do much!

but overall i think the comet is a lot stronger than the star, i remember for a while we played that that star could be converted to a bane or a conflict (failure) and i thin i might propose we go back to that, makes the rolls a little bit harder and the star a little worse to roll. right now id much rather roll a chaos star than a conflict or the double conflict!

evilben said:

I have this same issue. Sigmar's comet is more overpowered in the variety and power of its effects. I miss having a critical failure in this system, so I might go for something similar to what you mention. Though I'd probably make the Chaos Star a double failure. I'd have to look at how that skews the statistics for tasks before ruling on it though.

When we first played the system, we were running Comets as, you pick what you want, either a comet effect, a crit, a boon, or a success, which ever you feel benefits you more. On the flip side we did the same with chaos stars, they were whatever result was the most damning. A failure if you only had one success, a bane if it would cause something bad to happen, or would cancel out a good boon effect, or a star effect if it was worse.

Since then we've gone to Star = Star effect, if no Star effect, then = bane. This does seem much weaker, I agree that in most rolls I would much rather roll a star than single or double failure. and this just seems wrong. Only time we ever seem to fear getting a star is if we're in a certain terrain type, like in the sewers, where star = get 1 wound, then we had guys running up totals of 7, 8, or 9 wounds, just from walking through the sewers, it made some people much less wanting to make extra observation checks, or other random skill checks looking for things blindly.

Lexicanum said:

lol this might be a fix to the "way to easy to succeed" issue people are whining so much about too!!!

Seems like environmental effects like that should have a built-in roll for the party vs. only triggering on observation and maneuver checks. Otherwise players will metagame avoiding them by, effectively, putting their hands over their faces and saying 'you can't see me' and not rolling.

Since then we've gone to Star = Star effect, if no Star effect, then = bane.

This is in fact the rule for Chaos Stars. Of course, the GM has the perogative to make it whatever they want, really.

BCA said:

I feel the Star used as in the RAW is indeed a bit weak...

I believe the Star should benefit from a "permanent option" rule like double banes or double boons.

Maybe this permanent option should be, in combat, some sort of fumble or stumble that makes you unarmed or exposed.

But, in keeping with the RAW, a more orthodox way to use the star should be to create a star effect that is thematically related to the scene, just like stars on location cards. So the "permanent option" would be determined by the GM at the start of the encounter and should hinder enough but not too much, since multiple Stars can occur... This will give something special to every battle. Maybe create a randomised table of Star effect ideas to use when inspiration fails....

Jericho said:

That could actually be a pretty neat addition, good idea Jericho. I could foresee an evergrowing deck of combat themes or some such, randomly draw one at the beginning of each encounter to determine what the Star effects are for that battle.

donbaloo said:

Maybe I'll start a thread to compile ideas for this. Could be very useful indeed. A bit like rolling for weather before a bloodbowl match...

keltheos said:

That particular star effect was from the terrain card, so it was any time anyone rolled a star doing anything in the sewers. My point was, after being down there for a while, members of the party were less gung ho about makeing extra checks if they didn't have too. The party was conviced there was a secret door out of the sewer tunnel into the mannor above, but it was well hidden, so it was a daunting check, with 4 chances to roll another wound, folks made one, maybe two checks, if they couldn't spot the entrance, then they gave up on it.

@Dvang

Yeah I know that Star = star or bane is the RAW, thats why we changed to that after our first session, my point is, that during the first session, we feared the star, shortly after getting the rule right during our second session, star, really not that bad at all, I usually had a spare boon to burn off, but not too many spare successes.

Yeah, the GM tried to story in the Stars, but it was getting harder and harder to do, especially when some one made a roll that came out 3 successes, 4 boon, a comet, and a star. "Okay you succeeded overwhelmingly, but because of the star you looked dumb doing it," Its a tough call when some one maxes out the success line, and all the good effect of an action card, but has a single star leftover, and the action card doesn't even have a star result. At least when the star was a cancel anything it could be used as a challenge, and knock someone from the 3 hammer line down to the 1 hammer line.

I'm not sure what a good solution is but I just feel that the star, is woefully under powered compared to the commet. Since the yellow die has the hammer+ on it, maybe the star could be a re-roll as well. Star = Star, or challenge, or bane, then reroll the die, that would make me fear the star again.

BCA said:

That Chaos star reroll idea is actually pretty nice

"a more orthodox way to use the star should be to create a star effect that is thematically related to the scene, just like stars on location cards."

That! I ruled that a star is always a negative environnemental effect - if not using a location card, it's easy enough to rule one - until more location cards are released!

Just tell the players what is the effect before the scene, make your own location cards, or improvise on the spot! I really like how the rolls can make the environnement "real" and dangerous:

A few examples:

Bargaining in a crowded street : Make a 1P observation check or lose money to a pickpocket.

Office : Seems you need to fill another form - delayed for 20 minutes.

Large underground cavern : You hit a rock with your feet that goes tumbling down a hole, producing nasty echoes - the noise wakes lot of bats!

Etc.

I was sitting around at the table rolling a pool of dice and practicing my ability to interpret them and come up with flavorful descriptions, when I had a similar issue spring up ... a chaos star amidst an otherwise perfect roll. Mechanically, assuming there is no specific effect for a chaos star to trigger, chaos stars are definitely a bit underwhelming. However, I seem to recall something in the book about them always adding something negative to the narrative. The example used was something about haggling with a saleswoman or some such. The check otherwise succeeds, so she agrees with the PC, unfortunately the chaos star means that later in the evening her jealous husband is waiting for him in the alley with a lead pipe and a bad attitude.

In combat, this seems difficult to deal with. You can only drop your weapon or lose your footing so many times before it becomes boring. I had a thought that maybe it has a more direct impact on the PC's adversary, however. Maybe the beastman he is fighting suddenly roars and attacks with a seemingly supernatural vigor (+1 fortune die to the monsters attack pool that round, for example). Or maybe it comes back to haunt him in other ways later. Maybe his wounds from that fight suddenly seem a little harder to heal (+1 misfortune die to the roll). Perhaps the chaos star lingers ... waiting to **** the character at the least opportune time.

MSpookshow said:

Maybe that beastman you just tried (and maybe were able) to hit will disengage for free and start attacking the weakest party member, or will die falling over the guy that dealt the killing blow, forcing him to spend a manoeuvre to get free, or the critical just inflicted is so powerfull that his now severed horn goes flying and hits someone else in the face, or your weapon get stuck in the horn, or your backpack opens and you start loosing items around the battlefield, or you loose a boot in the mud forcing you to suffer one more fatigue per manoeuvre, or you get the sun in the eyes and are blinded for one round, or you enrage the beast and it gets agression points back, or you loose your footing, or you find yourself in a weak position and cannot use active defenses before your next turn, or your armor is badly dammaged, loosing one soak until repaired, or...

Why limit yourself to the same two options?

You could also use the Chaos Star, in combat, to reduce a monster's recharge on one of their cards, or restore an A/C/E die. Or, why not increase an enemy's initiative position? Etc. You could also use it as if it was a delay roll, or add a stress/fatigue (although I'd probably leave these to the stance dice).

dvang said:

great !