True, Coordination Dodge should just be banned...

I think the that whole tree is a bit overpowered (parry a lightsaber with your hand? and it costs less strain?!) but I don't think its really fair to ban a tree or even a skill, better to limit the number it can actually add to the roll. example - Coordination Dodge spend 1 DP to add failure to the next attack that targets you equal to HALF your ranks in Coordination. Then if we limit ranks and attributes to 4 it and abilities like it are nerfed but not made utterly useless.

Ban signatures tho.

*Shakes fist @LordBritish *

Coordination Dodge was a beast. Basically determined the final matchup after I forewent having a TD. But I can see allowing such abilities but charing double for them (2 Des for CD, for example).

Seems like we bann everything if I read all the textes ^^

So everyone gets the recruit trade and a light holdoutblast and norml clothes....

(sorry for beeing absent, but I have some troubles with the login to the site -.-)

If you bann coordination ddge you have to bann all other DP talents the same way, yes they are quite mighty, but that is theire intend and why you can only use them WHILE you can spend one DP at all.
also what would happen to the slot in the tree where the DP-Talent would be? Make that field empty with no cost? well quick advancing to the more expensive stuff while still having EXp to buy them. Making them cost theire points while adding not anything to the char? quite unfair if you need to move over the field to reach the better talents. Switch it out with another Talent? but who can decide wich one? just one out of the other class trees that costs the same? -

Oh and of course Parry and reflect of the jedis would have to be banned to since they reduce the damage much more reliable than CD ever could with out the DP cost...- quite the rattail here...

So instead of Just banning those talents how about:

adding a limit to them in 1vs1 fights?

My take would be:

"Once per Session you may flip a DP To add....[standard talent description]"

of course this should also count for force user, so they can use a DP on every Force power / force talent to use the other force pip once per talent.

(otherwise the force users would be unbalanced if they don't get the same restrictions on DP uses for talents/ powers.)

My opinion on weapons:

I'd like to bann (shaped and normal) Thermal detonators, rocket launchers, disrupters.
Banning ALL mods on any attachment (because it is a **** to controll and track all those things on the character sheets)

Limiting Attachment to reason (e.g. only one handle attachment, only one kind of visor/ aiming device (you can only look through one kind at a time...)
Banning Supreme

Since lightsabers have breach cortosis is totally legit (and costly)! otherwise a non force user has no chance to defend against any forcy with parry and

Max armor is of Soak 2 - (so something like Bulks heavy powered armor is out)

Charakteristics maxed at 4 (5 if you pay up with cybernetics or armor attachments) (that way even with cortosis maximum Soak would be 6 (7) wich will in the most cases still alows damage to be done with most weapons that gains 1(2) net sucesses
Skill maxed at 3 (talents may increses this Further)

Oh yeah and Signatures are to be banned in total since only a few could even be used and are then totally overpowered.

I would limit Stimpacks to 2 per encounter (no need to bann the m.pouch though...) if you bann those completly you also destroy the stimpack specializtion talents of some trees which could become a problem since you would take out the whole career-specialization out of the tournament. (we don't want to limit the careers that participate any further down, do we?)

I think perhaps the big issues we are seeing is in the amount of XP & credits involved. What if we stuck to Knight Level rules? 3 skill ranks max, no characteristics above 5?

Also, what if Restricted weapons were restricted they would either need a Streetwise check to obtain or else a skill check to build.

19 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

I kinda like the Destiny Point mechanics, but I dislike how random they can be for tournament play. Someone can get all the Destiny and then unload on their opponent, or just hoard them so that the opponent can't use them at all.

What arena should we use?

Well... how about:

Kashyyyk - Tree Village - Treepathes

No Penalitys for enviorment

Use on Triumph: Downstairs you go! - The enemy is pushed by your attack and falls down a level. Fall damage 10 Wounds before Soak, and 10 Strain before soak. Also the enemy gets prone by the attack.

Use on a Despair: Slippery ground! - the attack gets of balance and oppens up wide - adding 2 Boosts to the defenders next check and one set back to his own next check.

1 minute ago, awayputurwpn said:

I think perhaps the big issues we are seeing is in the amount of XP & credits involved. What if we stuck to Knight Level rules? 3 skill ranks max, no characteristics above 5?

Also, what if Restricted weapons were restricted they would either need a Streetwise check to obtain or else a skill check to build.

that would again need alot of confirming checks in the character buildingphase by the GMs (same as attachment mods)

the "restricted" mark on weapons shouldn't be of any meaning (each forcy would need to make a check to obtain the lightsaber ... and if he fails the atemp he couldn't use his saber tree... and would have lost right from the beginning...)

I could suggest one quick fix for weapon mods: Allowing a limited number of mods to be installed automatically (between 3-5) however, no additional mods can be installed beyond that allotted to each character.

That way it cuts out all the preparation and keeps everyone on a level playingboard, reduces the number of rolls to prepare, but is also a resource the player will have to commit to.

1 hour ago, LordBritish said:

I could suggest one quick fix for weapon mods: Allowing a limited number of mods to be installed automatically (between 3-5) however, no additional mods can be installed beyond that allotted to each character.

That way it cuts out all the preparation and keeps everyone on a level playingboard, reduces the number of rolls to prepare, but is also a resource the player will have to commit to.

while I see why you suggest it, I would rather preffer to not add any mods otherwise there will be a lot of oneshot weapons in the tournament (like every lightsaber having 10 damage, with crit on and breach with 5 auto mods... not to count for the bonus through attachment like twohand grip, or reverse shiens grip auto advantage)

That way every not lightsaber user needs to set his armor up to maximum defense and cortosis just to have a chance of surviving.

or you could pimp a ranged weapon so hard that its damage will mow down everyone in one hit thanks to and so on.

(again I don't want to restrict attachment only the Mods of the attachments)

The main balancing factor on Parry and Reflect is that they are risky to use due to the Strain cost. Coordination Dodge is a freebie as long as you have a DP. Awayputyrwpn is right that the only way to prevent the opponent from CD every turn is to hoard the Destiny Points (which I should have done in our match! ). Maybe we could just make CD work the same way as Parry and Reflect by charging a decent Strain cost to use it.

5 minutes ago, SavageBob said:

Maybe we could just make CD work the same way as Parry and Reflect by charging a decent Strain cost to use it.

Than it would be even deadlier, DP is a much more restricting ressource than Strain (wich can be recovered in various ways during a match )

there is a reason why Awayputurweapon as much as my self only declared to use the coord dodge in special circumstance, like "if you use your TD" or " in case of your strongest Weapon" ect. with strain cost I would use that nearly every time ^^

If it costs Strain, an opponent can use that against the dodger by using attacks that directly target Strain. With the flow of Destiny Points being what it is, you can pretty much use CD every turn anyway unless your opponent hoards the points. So we can agree to disagree, but I see it as less limiting than Parry and Reflect in a tournament like this.

Here are my current suggestions -

1. Cap attributes and ranks to 4 max.
2. Maximum of 3 Mods TOTAL over armour and weapons.
3. 2 attacks in a turn just out (So no autofire or dual wielding or the 2 hit crit).
4. Max soak of 6.
5. Limit the credits even more if we do that again.
6. No cortosis.
7. Breach nerfed to pierce 4? or requires advantage to trigger like other stuff.
8. Signature skills banned.

Individual skills may have to be looked at (like coordination dodge) and adjusted.

For a competition inviting all Specialisations that seems like a good place to start. If we want to restrict it more we can but it should at least be closer matches like that.

In the name of balance - as long as we want to keep this an open for all careers tournament -

1. Cap attributes and ranks to 4 max. - and Skill ranks to 3 max
2. Maximum of 3 Mods TOTAL over armour and weapons. Maximum of 3 Attachments . (It is tiresome to keep track of everyones mods checks in the beginning espacially if there are mistakes to correct)
3. 2 attacks in a turn just out (So no autofire or dual wielding or the 2 hit crit). That way you restrict some Specialization right away like Gunslinger or Ataru Striker by denying them core skills! and dual wield is balanced by the additonal difficulty dice (just look at our match couldn't hit you for good)
4. Max soak of 6. Maximum armor with soak of 2. ( there are still trees that will add endurance otherwise you will restrict them in theire core abilitys )
5. Limit the credits even more if we do that again. - which than would kick out cortosis and any lightsaber ^^
6. No cortosis . - If you bann cortosis you have to bann lightsabers the same way - other wise even with nerfing to pierce 4 it will still be instant kill when ever the opponent doesn't have parry ( natural max soak of 6!)
7. Breach nerfed to pierce 4? or requires advantage to trigger like other stuff. to be honest nerfing to pierce 4 is laughable when you proclaime a max soak of 6 ... keep it as it is and allow cortosis, the trigger for two advatages feels somewhat strange since it would be even more powerfull than any crit (with the proclaimed cortosis restriction)
8. Signature skills banned.
9. Set every DP using Talent to "once per match" (added)

Otherwise if you really want to put every restriction through that utterly destroys a talent in the tree (like Blazing guns, endurance, Hawkbat swoob)
the compensation should be: the player chooses a talent of the same cost from one of the other specializationtrees that are alligent to his main career.

We probably need to make some decisions on how broad the next championship will be. Are we going to go down the path of narrow focus games? All combatants using a single weapon type?

Or do people want the challenge of different weapons each round of the competition?

or the third option of keeping it open for weapon types, and working on these primary restrictions that have been discussed recently?

We also need to discuss the random nature of the Initiative, Destiny, location and most importantly range. I thought initially that having it as random as it was would benefit the game by making flexible characters better, but it really decided the outcome of most fights before they even began. Do we reduce the variability of not just the arenas but the starting conditions as well?

8 minutes ago, Nightone said:

2 attacks in a turn just out (So no autofire or dual wielding or the 2 hit crit). That way you restrict some Specialization right away like Gunslinger or Ataru Striker by denying them core skills! and dual wield is balanced by the additonal difficulty dice (just look at our match couldn't hit you for good)

The number of times you went 'better win this turn so I'm going to dual wield' then did is, more than the times we fought. So no. Also both Tanson and Pango were able to win handily by doing an excessive number within a single turn. So no I disagree.

11 minutes ago, Nightone said:

Maximum of 3 Mods TOTAL over armour and weapons. Maximum of 3 Attachments . (It is tiresome to keep track of everyones mods checks in the beginning espacially if there are mistakes to correct)

Thats what I meant.

11 minutes ago, Nightone said:

• Max soak of 6. Maximum armor with soak of 2. ( there are still trees that will add endurance otherwise you will restrict them in theire core abilitys )
• Limit the credits even more if we do that again. - which than would kick out cortosis and any lightsaber ^^

Limiting the credits would make it so someone who buys a saber is basically blowing their load on just that saber and will thus be less we armoured and any hits they take hurt more.

14 minutes ago, Nightone said:

• No cortosis . - If you bann cortosis you have to bann lightsabers the same way - other wise even with nerfing to pierce 4 it will still be instant kill when ever the opponent doesn't have parry ( natural max soak of 6!)
• Breach nerfed to pierce 4? or requires advantage to trigger like other stuff. to be honest nerfing to pierce 4 is laughable when you proclaime a max soak of 6 ... keep it as it is and allow cortosis, the trigger for two advatages feels somewhat strange since it would be even more powerfull than any crit (with the proclaimed cortosis restriction)

Also disagree.

1 minute ago, Richardbuxton said:

We probably need to make some decisions on how broad the next championship will be. Are we going to go down the path of narrow focus games? All combatants using a single weapon type?

Or do people want the challenge of different weapons each round of the competition?

or the third option of keeping it open for weapon types, and working on these primary restrictions that have been discussed recently?

We also need to discuss the random nature of the Initiative, Destiny, location and most importantly range. I thought initially that having it as random as it was would benefit the game by making flexible characters better, but it really decided the outcome of most fights before they even began. Do we reduce the variability of not just the arenas but the starting conditions as well?

I think that one single competition isnt going to get us perfectly set up (or as close as we can get) so we should do another any spec to fine tune, but put up a poll or something to see if ppl would rather do a single weapon session just for fun.

I don’t mind another open competition. I do think that lowering the credit amount is an important change, sabers and big rifles with heavy armour is a bit excessive.

As far as weapon types available, what do others want, please give feedback:

1. Single weapon type, eg Pistols only, Sabers only, or must have extreme range.

2. Changing weapons each round: Eg round 1 Brawl, round 2 Ranged light, round 3 Sabers, round 4 at/st’s. The weapon for each round would be provided and identical for both combatants.

3. Open weapon choice, same as the first competition but with more restrictions on credits and xp options.

Would be open for any kind of event,

but I think in terms of balance

2. Changing weapons each round - is the most promising - since then every character typ has a chance to win in his respective strength.

(but keep in mind that brawl can always be used by let your weapons fall... so I would encourage some sort of extra penality for not using the given weapon like: the electro collar around your neck starts to electrify you, all checks are Upgrade twice and the difficulty is increase by 2 until you use the right weapon again" that way a character like bulk wouldn't be able to stick to his fists but has to go with the weapon of competition.

1 hour ago, SithArissa said:

Limiting the credits would make it so someone who buys a saber is basically blowing their load on just that saber and will thus be less we armoured and any hits they take hurt more.

Well yes and by so making it a battle of class canon again, the one blowin his load for gear has no benefit due to breach, and the lightsaber monkey has no loss since a soak 2 armor merly cost 350,- Cred (bio gel suit of DoH) and if he has a saber tree like niman with both parry and reflect... so yeah very limiting for the lightstick wielder...

Don't want to make an argument but it seems like you want to limiting everything a not Forceuser can do to balance against a Forceuser while the only thing you "nerf" at the forcy side is the limiting breach by make it pierce 4 which then again is just for players any help that put everything into brawn...

But ok how about this (using your template as base ^^) for a compromise

1. Cap attributes to 4 max.
2. Cap skills to 3 max.
3. Max Armor soak of 2.
4. Maximum of 3 attachments TOTAL over armour and weapons.
5. No cortosis for armor (weapons can still have it to be safe of sunder)
6. No Breach or Pierce (weapons with this may still be used but the quality is just gone!)
7. Banning all and any attacks with the Linked and autofire quality.
8. Signature skills are banned.
9. Weapons with a base damage over 10 are banned
10. Set every "DP using Talent" to "once per match"
11. Set DP use for other Forcepip use to "once per match per force power/talent"
12. Special case: If a talent of a talenttree is directly effected by the banning rules (like hawkbat swoop and blazing guns), the character may choose a talent with the exact same costs of the banned talent from one of the other career aligning talenttrees.

12 minutes ago, Nightone said:

• Cap attributes to 4 max.
• Cap skills to 3 max.
• Max Armor soak of 2.
• Maximum of 3 attachments TOTAL over armour and weapons.
• No cortosis for armor (weapons can still have it to be safe of sunder)
• No Breach or Pierce (weapons with this may still be used but the quality is just gone!)
• Banning all and any attacks with the Linked and autofire quality.
• Signature skills are banned.
• Weapons with a base damage over 10 are banned
• Set every "DP using Talent" to "once per match"
• Set DP use for other Forcepip use to "once per match per force power/talent"
• Special case: If a talent of a talenttree is directly effected by the banning rules (like hawkbat swoop and blazing guns), the character may choose a talent with the exact same costs of the banned talent from one of the other career aligning talenttrees.

I can agree to most of this just 2 points -

Its not just linked/autofire but the act of attacking twice thats the problem and just banning the skills doesn't stop someone buying 2 vibro axes and carving you up like a turkey.

15 minutes ago, Nightone said:

• Set every "DP using Talent" to "once per match"
• Set DP use for other Forcepip use to "once per match per force power/talent"

I don't know if I like this but I am willing to go with the general consensus.

5 minutes ago, SithArissa said:

I can agree to most of this just 2 points -

Its not just linked/autofire but the act of attacking twice thats the problem and just banning the skills doesn't stop someone buying 2 vibro axes and carving you up like a turkey.

Ah yes I see, the trouble is that two weapon fighting doesn't count as "linked attack" - let me rephrase:

7. Banning all and any attacks with the Linked and autofire quality or two Weapons/Fists at the same time .

5 minutes ago, SithArissa said:

I don't know if I like this but I am willing to go with the general consensus.

Well the DP trouble of Coordination Dodge/ Anatomy Lesson was brought by others to the table, but if we restrict the normal user it has to be restricted for forcys as well ^^

3 hours ago, SithArissa said:

The number of times you went 'better win this turn so I'm going to dual wield' then did is, more than the times we fought. So no. Also both Tanson and Pango were able to win handily by doing an excessive number within a single turn. So no I disagree.

To be fair, I think I pulled off a two-weapon attack once despite trying it at least two or three times. It was always from a point of desperation, usually with some melee attacker engaged with me and me near death. In other words, I think the increased difficulty for two weapons was a sufficient balancing factor for Pango. That said, I can see that if I had opted to go Demolitionist/Gunslinger instead of Demolitionist/Mercenary Soldier, I could have abused this system. But I think I side with Night One that barring linked and talents that encourage it, duel wielding shouldn't be that much of a problem.