11 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

Palp went to being on almost every (Imperial) table, to now being on almost none.

I think they went a tad too far with the change. I'd have been happier with a range restriction.

Defenders feel pretty on-point now. While I miss them being OP, this setup makes the most sense and is healthiest for the game.

IMO both nerf were not needed. Before the nerf the meta was mostly scums with some rebels and some Imperials. After the nerf it's only rebel and scum. Whats de difference between seeing defenders and Palp everywhere or seing Miranda and Biggs all the time?

If they really had to make the changes IMO this would have been perfect:

Palp: Just make his ability used before rerolls.

Defenders: You lose the evade only with obstacles or bumps. Adding stress sensitivity makes them too easy to counter IMO. We all know how they were before the X7 title was added...

Another better approach would have been to wait until Imprials have other options to remain valid before changing the tools that made them viable.

2 hours ago, Thormind said:

But is less forgiving, harder to maneuver, more fragile and has a firing arc. Also if you buy 4 striker it's money wasted since eventually to be competitive you wont be using more than one. 4 Agressors is a good entry even for competitive play.

*yawn*

We're you saying something about a game set in the Star Wars universe??

28 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

*yawn*

We're you saying something about a game set in the Star Wars universe??

Not sure i understand what you are saying... Xwing can be both casual and competitive. There are tounaments with hundreds of players all over the world. There is a metagame just like any other competitive game. If the new player go to a tournament with a set of 4 strikers, he is in for a very bad suprise. Almost everyone i know would drop a game if they loose all the time. 4xTLT give newbs a chance to win and be motivated to continu playing.

Part of my RL work is forming new employee. We start with the simple stuff and get more complex step by step. Beginning with a simpler ship before going to harder stuff like fragile aces/arc dodger does seem logical to me...

18 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Not sure i understand what you are saying... Xwing can be both casual and competitive.

That a ship is a waste of money if it is not competitive.

XWM is a game first, and a sport second. No ship is a waste of money for the game.

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

That a ship is a waste of money if it is not competitive.

XWM is a game first, and a sport second. No ship is a waste of money for the game.

At least, that's what we keep telling the U-Wing.

8 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

At least, that's what we keep telling the U-Wing.

I have played Bodhi "Linebacker" Rook several times as a very effective blocker in Epic.

Bodhi Rook (30)
U-Wing (25), Enhanced Scopes (1), "Zeb" Orrelios (1), Nien Nunb (1), Pivot Wing (0), Anti-Pursuit Lasers (2)

I agree with the OP. It is also interesting that the ship is fairly flexible which would be good for a novice player. They could treat is as easy mode 4 Y + TLT, mix in just a couple to cover fire for the core set TIEs, or just fit them out with their unguided rockets. Lots of choices and a bit easier to understand what they can do than things like Interceptors or a TIE/sf, and as already mentioned they are pretty self contained as far as needed cards.

6 hours ago, Thormind said:

I dont know why i did not realize that before having the product in hand but the Tie Aggressor comes with everything needed to gear it. It remains to be seen how good it will be for high level competitve events but for a starting player it's IMO the most forgiving ship to learn how to play. On top of that when the player decide to try out some tournaments, he would start with something at least quite decent.

What's needed:

1 core set + 4 Tie Aggressor, thats a pretty good starting price to get into a wargame...

Four Aggressors isn't even good because normal Quad TLT is like tier 2 at best, arguably.

But regardless, the expansion is still a great one for new players. The FO expansion for Omega Leader is also great. Throw in a Phantom or Defender and that's a solid squad. All you'd need would be to pick up a spare Lone Wolf or VI off of someone.

4 hours ago, Jo Jo said:

They should have done the x7 errata or Palp, not both. That combo needed to be knocked down a peg, but they were a bit heavy handed knocking it down two pegs.

I will always contend FFG screwed up the Defender titles from the start. Tie D should have been -2 points and x7 0. That would have made the original x7 title more balanced and made the decision for either title that much harder.

Let me correct this: the TIE/D should be (0) and you get a cannon upgrade up to (3) squad points free and get a primary shot after a secondary attack as now detailed on the card; TIE/X7 should have been a free evade token unless you overlap an obstacle (not a ship) at (0) squad points.

IMO ?

23 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Four Aggressors isn't even good because normal Quad TLT is like tier 2 at best, arguably.

But regardless, the expansion is still a great one for new players. The FO expansion for Omega Leader is also great. Throw in a Phantom or Defender and that's a solid squad. All you'd need would be to pick up a spare Lone Wolf or VI off of someone.

Soon as I get an Aggressor, I'm gonna try two X7 Defenders and a TLT aggressor.

With that, depending on what pilots you run, only requires 3 expansion packs (Aggressor, Veterans and core set)

5 hours ago, nigeltastic said:

Learning to fly without worrying about normal primary firing arcs seems like a potential set up for later frustration or failure. I've been playing for a while and after flying the lancer too much I find myself flying large based arc bound ships wrong; flying to get a broadside mobile arc on people. For a player just starting out the ability to fire outside of primary arc seems even more warping.

Well they also come with synched turret which rewards you for getting the arc right but doesn't punish you for not while also getting you practice with target locks, and unguided missiles which requires you get the arcs right while driving home the value of the focus action, so it also gives you the tools to break yourself of that habit without having to buy another ship or going cold turkey on turrets.

But I agree with those suggesting a mix. Rather than 4x Aggressors putting the TIEs from the starter to work and diversifying a bit is a good idea.

13 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Four Aggressors isn't even good because normal Quad TLT is like tier 2 at best, arguably.

For new players. Someone beginning is much more likely to win games with 4xTLT than with strikers or interceptors.

Also this is just a first impression and i need more practice to validate but my first few games with 4xaggressor felt quite different than with 4xYwing (or thug life). The better dial does make a difference and with LWF they feel more survivable than Y wings. For example during one game Dengar got 4 fully moded shots (K4+focus) on the same TLT. He got 12 hits (he got lucky) and the Agressor survived. You could say i got lucky and that would be true but so did he. The thing is, to matter what a Ywing would have been destroyed for sure...

I have not played against a top meta build yet so it could turn out to be false hope...

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

That a ship is a waste of money if it is not competitive.

XWM is a game first, and a sport second. No ship is a waste of money for the game.

IMO if you buy 1 yes. If you buy 4 and you only ever use one, nope. Buying 4 Strikers is money wasted in my book. Im really glad i changed my preorder to only one a week before release :-)

7 hours ago, Thormind said:

For new players. Someone beginning is much more likely to win games with 4xTLT than with strikers or interceptors.

Also this is just a first impression and i need more practice to validate but my first few games with 4xaggressor felt quite different than with 4xYwing (or thug life). The better dial does make a difference and with LWF they feel more survivable than Y wings. For example during one game Dengar got 4 fully moded shots (K4+focus) on the same TLT. He got 12 hits (he got lucky) and the Agressor survived. You could say i got lucky and that would be true but so did he. The thing is, to matter what a Ywing would have been destroyed for sure...

I have not played against a top meta build yet so it could turn out to be false hope...

I don't think I agree with this. While Thug Life was easy mode, it wasn't an auto-win. It still required flying in formation (an acquired skill), target priority (something many players never seem to really acknowledge), and, to some degree, predicting how your opponents are going to try and bridge the gap.

A skilled player of any list is still likely to beat someone new playing Quad TLTs.

Rau Boats of DenTel would be MUCH easier for a new person to perform well with, imo. I've had many people talk about how they were almost accidentally winning at events when they took Rau Boats for the first time ever. One of our local Store Championships was won by a player using Rau Boats for the first time. Of course, he was a good player otherwise, he was just a Rebel player by nature.

13 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

actually i would advise against a turret user for a new player. You dont learn how to properly fly when you have no arc woes to deal with.

I'd say flying Strikers would be better as they hit hard, are cheap so you can run several, and the slight difficulty of the pre-move maneuver will rapidly teach you how to predict movements. Its nowhere near as unforgiving as phantoms since theyre cheap and dont have AS many potential positions to think about.

Nothing like being a new player and never getting to make Pew-Pew sounds because your opponent is never nice enough to get/stay in front of your ship to shoot at.

Although they maybe shouldn't stick with it a long time starting in a low point (50) with the defensive Chewie and gunner can help a new player feel like they could actually play the game against a more skilled player. If you're worried about teaching firing arcs I suggest countering the PWT Falcon with something that penalizes it when you're not in arc.

Although I wouldn't encourage a new player to go four ships deep on a single model (except maybe the basic TIE Fighter) the Aggressor certain can be a new player friendly ship.

I would never give a newbie only turreted ships in any list, that being 25pts or 100pts. They need to learn about flying properly.

Sure, one aggressor and 3 arced ships? tahts fine.

Also pretty much no falcon until they at least know their angles.

26 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

I don't think I agree with this. While Thug Life was easy mode, it wasn't an auto-win. It still required flying in formation (an acquired skill), target priority (something many players never seem to really acknowledge), and, to some degree, predicting how your opponents are going to try and bridge the gap.

A skilled player of any list is still likely to beat someone new playing Quad TLTs.

Rau Boats of DenTel would be MUCH easier for a new person to perform well with, imo. I've had many people talk about how they were almost accidentally winning at events when they took Rau Boats for the first time ever. One of our local Store Championships was won by a player using Rau Boats for the first time. Of course, he was a good player otherwise, he was just a Rebel player by nature.

You have to take into account many things:

1) core set + 4 aggressors is around 100$ and gives you everything you need to play 4x TLT agressors

2) Aggressors are not like thug life IMO btw (from early impression, need more time to make a clear opinion here), better dial and maybe more survivable. would be vs Rau boats IMO.

3) How much does Rau boats fully geared?

4) How much information do you need to keep in mind with Rau boats? Thats a wole lot more upgrades and ability to learn. Soo many other things to keep in mind with scouts: Trying to position yourself so turning left is your best option. Learning how to block (and predict your opponent moves). Remembering to use all the possible upgrades like Intelligence agent, K4, Boba, Guidance chips, mindlink, etc. In a tournament no opponent (or not many) will help the new remember all those things. Even when playing casual, Information overload can easily turn off many people.

5) Do you think that flying into range one with Fenn is easier than avoiding range 1 with TLTs? IMO Fenn will go down before ever flying a range 1 shot in the hand of a new player.

6) Scouts have PWT but thats not where the dmg comes from. You have to line up those torps... Not that easy for newbs.

8) how to manage stress with mindlink and being careful about using red maneuvers. Ive seen many more experienced players forgetting mindlink and being frustrated because they dialed a red move. If we are honnest it happened to almost all of us, especially when tired :-)

IMO thats too much going against Rau boats to consider the built newbs friendly. It is playing eazy mode, but once you have at least a minimum level of experience. Even if still not ideal for starters, Parattani would be much easier to learn than Rau boats. Lot less upgrades and that dial on the Shadowcaster is incredibly forgiving.

9 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I would never give a newbie only turreted ships in any list, that being 25pts or 100pts. They need to learn about flying properly.

Sure, one aggressor and 3 arced ships? tahts fine.

Also pretty much no falcon until they at least know their angles.

Just gear one aggressor (or 2) with the rockets when playing to learn... Its in the Xpac as well When flown with rockets, it's just as good (if not better?) as a Tie fighter for what it can teach. Since you need a core set, you can always mix in 1 or 2 Tie F when you learn as well.

I dont see a new player getting any chance to win with an ace, much less with 3. Aces (including phantoms) are probably the least forgiving ships in the game IMO. Its frequently dodge or die. They would be my last step in a learning process.

21 minutes ago, StevenO said:

except maybe the basic TIE Fighter.

Are we talking about Tie swarms? I would rather learn formation flying with 4 TLT that still allow me to be decent if i screw up a little than doing it with 6-7-8 Tie fighter.

On the other hand i agree with you about Chewie. A Falcon is always a good starting point for rebels. There will be more upgrades to remember but at least it's going to be on fewer ships. It wont be as competitive as 4 TLT for the first tournaments though. Depends if the player has the intention to remain casual or not.

2 hours ago, Thormind said:

Just gear one aggressor (or 2) with the rockets when playing to learn... Its in the Xpac as well When flown with rockets, it's just as good (if not better?) as a Tie fighter for what it can teach. Since you need a core set, you can always mix in 1 or 2 Tie F when you learn as well.

I dont see a new player getting any chance to win with an ace, much less with 3. Aces (including phantoms) are probably the least forgiving ships in the game IMO. Its frequently dodge or die. They would be my last step in a learning process.

Are we talking about Tie swarms? I would rather learn formation flying with 4 TLT that still allow me to be decent if i screw up a little than doing it with 6-7-8 Tie fighter.

On the other hand i agree with you about Chewie. A Falcon is always a good starting point for rebels. There will be more upgrades to remember but at least it's going to be on fewer ships. It wont be as competitive as 4 TLT for the first tournaments though. Depends if the player has the intention to remain casual or not.

I wouldn't give them three aces either.

Maybe one ace and 2-3 jousties.

17 hours ago, Thormind said:

IMO if you buy 1 yes. If you buy 4 and you only ever use one, nope. Buying 4 Strikers is money wasted in my book. Im really glad i changed my preorder to only one a week before release :-)

I bought four to make all their wing positions different. Money well spent. Wouldn't mind 8 of them for epic.

14 minutes ago, benskywalker said:

I bought four to make all their wing positions different. Money well spent. Wouldn't mind 8 of them for epic.

4 aggressors is way overkill for a new player. I would says player shouldn't buy more than 2 of any particular ship out of the gate.

Core pack, aggressor, imperial aces, and a defender would be a more balanced start.

Duplicating ships is pretty rare in xwing.