In my Edge game there is one force user (shii-cho knight). But she doesn't have her lightsaber yet and fights with a vibrosword and a blaster rifle. For two sessions now she wants to put experience into the lightsaber combat skill, so when she gets her lightsaber, she will be immerdiately proficient enough to fight with it.

I kind of struggle with the decision whether I allow that or not. Until now, I didn't allow that, because she has absolutely no opportunity to learn something about fighting with lightsabers. She doesn't have one (although she has the parts for the hilt, she could assemble it and make some "dry" training). Also I think the empire will restrict knowledge about it, so you won't be able to just HoloGoogle some blogs about lightsaber fighting or YouHolo some tutorial videos..

How do you handle this, or would handle this?

Have a session(s) where she finds a Holocron with limited Lightsaber instructions so she can advance to what you are comfortable with, or, say no.

Yes, that was my original plan.

Currently they are in the "Long arm of the Hutt" adventure, I planned our hacker would find some well hidden secret files in Teemo's servers (they need to hack them anyways). As a backup, if the hacker won't find the files, they would find such a holocron later on. I gave out some job offers via bulletin board, some bounties, hauling jobs, but 2 of them would start the adventures "Beyond the Rim" and "Mask of the Pirate Queen". I think such a holocron would nicely fit into the first, somewhere on the Sa Nalaor..

But as a conclusion, you would also restrict such a skill..

It really depends whether the character is even aware of what a lightsaber is. If a character has never handled a lightsaber nor been in company that had allowed information access at least once, then why would they want to learn to fight with lightsabers again? It's a bit metagamey and if the player doesn't have any knowledge of lightsaber combat; that should be established as the norm from the outset. "Look you are a bunch of smugglers and hired guns. You won't be saving the galaxy just yet, but your main concern is to survive on a day by day basis e.c.t". In this given case, the character isn't disadvantaged in the slightest (Knight is a good melee spec too.) so narrative I would make them wait until they have got one and I probably would not allow them to craft a hilt/training saber without having examined something related to it first.

When my PC found a lightsaber it was 12 sessions in an edge campaign, a ruined one under a corpse in a temple that was crushed by a door. Two sessions later, my PC failed a disp check from the sith spirit occuping and felt compelled not only to keep it "away from anyone else" but also repair it. He rolled a double T and got it working immediately. It wasn't until another bunch of sessions in when we became really wanted outlaws that it was carried more openly in the name of the alliance, to the agenda of a diseased sith spirit.

e.g. If I can wait that long, buy into emergent and Ataru over the course of a year and some for mine, it doesn't hurt for this guy to bank his exp for a few sessions and hold his noble knight horses. XD Because the other alternative if he really wants to invest in a form is to simply have enough aside to pick up a couple of ranks after picking one up.

On the flipside, given it's a skill he will unable to use until he builds one, theres no harm in him "having a natural procency in one blade to another".

Backstory-wise she had a force user who trained her in some basic force usage. He could have had a lightsaber, so she could know what it is. Also she has a good knowledge (lore) skill, so basically she could have about jedi and lightsabers.

I planned to give her a crystal when they reach knight level, or slightly below. On the other hand that could be too late. She wants to play a force user with a lightsaber, that's why she chose shii-cho knight. If I keep the saber away too long, she could get frustrated (smaller risk for that to happen) or use her xp to get skills, she would later never use again (higher risk).

But on the other hand If I give her a saber too early, she could outrun the other characters (combat-wise), which could frustrate the others. Actually the saber seems to be very strong vs the other char's rifles and pistols (letting out the much discussed auto fire)

I'd say let her spend the XP, but she can't raise the skill beyond what her Melee skill is currently at until she gets her hands on a lightsaber. Or if you want to be a bit more conservative, restrict her Lightsaber ranks to Melee ranks minus 1.

Reason for this is we have a canon example of someone who's only ever heard stories about lightsabers and yet is able to wield one with some degree of proficiency thanks to their prowess with a melee weapon, the character discussed being Rey of The Force Awakens. From the background fluff, she was able to translate her prowess with her staff into at least the basics of using a lightsaber, on top of likely having been awake to see at least part of the Kylo vs. Finn battle. Yes, Rey had the Force helping her out, especially towards the end, but the PC is also Force-sensitive and has a spec that offers Lightsaber as a career skill, so her suddenly being proficient with a lightsaber can be handwaved much the same way as it was for Rey.

25 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I'd say let her spend the XP, but she can't raise the skill beyond what her Melee skill is currently at until she gets her hands on a lightsaber. Or if you want to be a bit more conservative, restrict her Lightsaber ranks to Melee ranks minus 1.

Reason for this is we have a canon example of someone who's only ever heard stories about lightsabers and yet is able to wield one with some degree of proficiency thanks to their prowess with a melee weapon, the character discussed being Rey of The Force Awakens. From the background fluff, she was able to translate her prowess with her staff into at least the basics of using a lightsaber, on top of likely having been awake to see at least part of the Kylo vs. Finn battle. Yes, Rey had the Force helping her out, especially towards the end, but the PC is also Force-sensitive and has a spec that offers Lightsaber as a career skill, so her suddenly being proficient with a lightsaber can be handwaved much the same way as it was for Rey.

Good point. Still I like the idea with the holocron / data files a bit better. Maybe I let her spend 5 points for rank 1, but if she wants more before having a saber, she has to reference a source for that knowledge.

Or use Ancient Sword, which is basically a training Lightsaber as it uses the skill.

8 hours ago, MasterZelgadis said:

Yes, that was my original plan.

Currently they are in the "Long arm of the Hutt" adventure, I planned our hacker would find some well hidden secret files in Teemo's servers (they need to hack them anyways). As a backup, if the hacker won't find the files, they would find such a holocron later on. I gave out some job offers via bulletin board, some bounties, hauling jobs, but 2 of them would start the adventures "Beyond the Rim" and "Mask of the Pirate Queen". I think such a holocron would nicely fit into the first, somewhere on the Sa Nalaor..

But as a conclusion, you would also restrict such a skill..

What I think is if you say no, or restrict her, she might just go ahead and bank up the xp she needs to buy it straight up to rank 5 when she does get it. Functionally your limitations wouldn't matter. So I'd say give her the holocron, let her enjoy spending her xp and playing her character, and prep for how to confound her and her new toy.

Shii-cho Knight has the Lightsaber skill. I say give it to her. Let her have an ancient sword that "just handles really weird." Or a training stick. Maybe an old book with diagrams of a forgotten swordsman style. I find it pretty cheap for a GM to say, "this is an integral part of your skill set, but I'm not letting you use it because it would be strange."

1 hour ago, The Grand Falloon said:

I find it pretty cheap for a GM to say, "this is an integral part of your skill set, but I'm not letting you use it because it would be strange."

In other words, don't be that GM who flunks the D.B.A.D. guideline simply out of what ultimately boils down to pettiness.

You could also give her a training saber. Looks and operates like a regular saber, but only causes stun damage. Then she replaces the crystal with something better when she finds it.

Two things to consider - first remember that there are plenty of in universe examples of people picking something up and performing remarkably well with little or no direct training. Luke's experience as a pilot was limited to swoops and speeders, and yet he immediately was able to perform as one of the rebellion's best pilots. It's hard to judge how good Rey was with the lightsaber, as Ren was only partially trained, but she still beat up the emo sithy dude, again with no training or experience. Anakin (I know, I know), could pilot pod-racers as well as world-class pilots, and he could apparently build a droid. You're player investing xp in order to follow the same mold doesn't feel particularly strange to me.

Second, if/when you give your player the sabre or crystal, give the other party members some nice stuff too. Maybe some cortosis-lined mando armor, a modded out blaster rifle, droid assistants for your medic, pilot, or mechanic, a fighter, a big new ship, etc. Character defining gear is nice, and lightsabers aren't the only thing out there.

the whole thing about lightsaber training is that it is for a specific type of weapon. They have different heft, weight, and physical makup than other melee weapons so swinging arounda vibro sword isn't going to really help her in training lightsaber. She'll need actual guidance if you want to keep it in story and not just allow crunch. It sounds like you want it to mean something so it should definitely be a reward of sorts.

23 hours ago, MasterZelgadis said:

Yes, that was my original plan.

Currently they are in the "Long arm of the Hutt" adventure, I planned our hacker would find some well hidden secret files in Teemo's servers (they need to hack them anyways). As a backup, if the hacker won't find the files, they would find such a holocron later on. I gave out some job offers via bulletin board, some bounties, hauling jobs, but 2 of them would start the adventures "Beyond the Rim" and "Mask of the Pirate Queen". I think such a holocron would nicely fit into the first, somewhere on the Sa Nalaor..

But as a conclusion, you would also restrict such a skill..

I had a really fun listing of what they find on teemo's server, let me know if you want a copy

19 hours ago, MamoruK said:

the whole thing about lightsaber training is that it is for a specific type of weapon. They have different heft, weight, and physical makup than other melee weapons so swinging arounda vibro sword isn't going to really help her in training lightsaber. She'll need actual guidance if you want to keep it in story and not just allow crunch. It sounds like you want it to mean something so it should definitely be a reward of sorts.

And yet we have Rey, who is a very skilled melee combatant with her metal staff, able to do reasonably well for a first time lightsaber wielder in TFA, doing far better than Finn did. While the precise motions wouldn't translate (thus my suggestion on setting a cap equal to the PC's own Melee skill), a lot of the mindset, footwork, and general tactics would.

Yes, she'd probably get owned by a Jedi Padawan that's been practicing with a lightsaber for most of their young lives, but she did manage to overcome an opponent who had received a measure of lightsaber combat training, whose own prowess may not have been up to Jedi Knight standards but was leagues better than anything Finn could offer up in spite of suffering from a bleeding injury inflicted by a weapon that TKO'd anyone else that got tagged by it, and he could probably go toe-to-toe with a young Jedi Padawan and not make a total fool of himself.

If you have access to the Force and Destiny core rulebook the adventure there, lessons from the past has a holocron as a reward, and the holocron gatekeeper knows how to build a lightsaber. I guess you can add enough muggle stuff as reward to statisfy the other players too.

Depending on how they deal with Teemo it's fair to say he might have a holocron, training saber, or some old jedi texts on the subject. Hutts are very long lived, collectors of curiosities, and less concerned with legalities.

I might limit it to a few ranks until she gets more advanced training or some experience with an actual lightsaber, but I generally try to avoid flat out saying no to anything short of the ridiculous.

Training sticks and self-study from holos will do just fine.

On 7/14/2017 at 1:10 AM, MasterZelgadis said:

I kind of struggle with the decision whether I allow that or not. Until now, I didn't allow that, because she has absolutely no opportunity to learn something about fighting with lightsabers.

... Backstory-wise she had a force user who trained her in some basic force usage. He could have had a lightsaber

... She wants to play a force user with a lightsaber, that's why she chose shii-cho knight

I understand that there is a feeling of making sabers big and mystical, and restraining access and ability to make them feel more special.

But I also think when you compare it to a more mundane example, the in-game affect of this mystical mumbo jumbo will be obviously silly.

Quote

One of my players is an Ace:Gunner. Story-wise she went through basic training, so could have been trained on heavy weapons, but in the actual campaign she hasn't had access to vehicle weapons or heavy weapons, but she wants to use XP to buy ranks in Gunnery.

Should I tell her she can't?

....pretty sure that's self explanatory...

As for:

Quote

Actually the saber seems to be very strong vs the other char's rifles and pistols (letting out the much discussed auto fire)

Use the saber stats from FaD, it's what they are there for.

Damage 6 with breach 1. So say 7-8 wounds typically. A blaster rifle does 9 damage. So 10-11 damage typical, minus average 4 soak = 7-8 wounds.

So yeah, a saber is comparable to a blaster rifle...

Not so bad now eh?

Let her get her ranks. It's not gonna change things big picture, but it will make her happen when she bust out with the glowstick.

Yeah, throw away the pre-FaD lightsaber info. It was a placeholder until FaD was fully developed. If you keep using the old stats now, any issues of imbalance are going to be based entirely on that choice.

On 15.7.2017 at 9:05 AM, lupex said:

I had a really fun listing of what they find on teemo's server, let me know if you want a copy

Would really like to see that copy

To all others: thanks for the input. Despite all the suggestions to just let her buy the skill, I think I will stick with the holocron idea. because lightsabers indeed are something special. The heavy gunnery comparison doesn't count, as ship sized weapons aren't super rare, and it's users are not hunt to death by the empire

4 hours ago, MasterZelgadis said:

Would really like to see that copy

To all others: thanks for the input. Despite all the suggestions to just let her buy the skill, I think I will stick with the holocron idea. because lightsabers indeed are something special. The heavy gunnery comparison doesn't count, as ship sized weapons aren't super rare, and it's users are not hunt to death by the empire

I was originally tying in possible story hooks, some played out but others didn't. These linked in to adventures from WEG, D20 and SAGA, FFG and fan made sources. A quick search on Wookieepedia should give you more info on most of the contacts that Teemo refers to.

Teemo.doc

"The page you are trying to access is not available for your account."

I gave my PCs a (damaged) holocron early on. Then they found ancient lightsaber hilts, which I allowed to be used with synthetic crystals as training lightsabers (no breach). So they could use lightsaber specific combat rules, but only getting more powerful in a slower way. Now they are on a quest to find proper crystals, which will be basic lightsaber stuff. Lots of potential to upgrade still...