Soo... I suppose the question is obvious? Surprised I couldn't find a thread for it yet (or maybe there was one that I missed?).

Palp works right after rolling dice (much like HLC and Mangler's results are changed from crits to hits and vice versa) and before the opposing player can start modifying your dice, so I guess he would counter Kestal. However, I've seen some really strange rulings in X-wing so I'd like the community feedback on this one. Does Kestal make Palp worthless or not?

Kestal doesn't actually have a timing specified, so I would assume it would happen during the attacker modifies defence dice step, after Palpatine, but it'll need FAQ to confirm.

The fact that Kestal has no timing window would cause a conflict here down to initiative, since technically she can spend it at any point you have dice she can cancel.
I imagine she can only do it during the mod step so palp would win, but its not specified so....FAQ!

TO here, so here it how it works...

Because Palp reads "After rolling, you must change 1 of your dice results to the named result" this will play out in the timing chart, solely based on what Palp rolls... if he rolls any focus or evades, Kestal will get to cancel those dice because the attacker modifies first.

4 minutes ago, shaunmerritt said:

TO here, so here it how it works...

Because Palp reads "After rolling, you must change 1 of your dice results to the named result" this will play out in the timing chart, solely based on what Palp rolls... if he rolls any focus or evades, Kestal will get to cancel those dice because the attacker modifies first.

If Kestral is attacking (This assumes Kestral's ability does function during the modify dice phase) and the defender is using Palpatine and calls an evede. the defender would change the die prior to Kestral being able to change it. Palpatine does not function during modify dice he triggers immediately after rolling. It would be dice roll, Palpatine changes, Attacker modify's dice - this could include using Juke to turn an evade into a focus then Kestral removing all blanks and focus, then defender modifies dice, of which there will be little left to change.

If Kestral can function at any time, then it would be an initiative decision.

Palp has the trigger C3P0 does, so he happens out of the usual order.

Which is the issue. Assuming Kestal does her thing in the Mod steps, he goes before her. But since thats not defined, technically if kestal has initiative she can negate Palp entirely.

Behold the rule snaffoos that come from giving you an offensive ability w/o a very specific timing window clause!

Definitely needs FAQ'd. I'll assume Kestal happens during Attacker Modifies Attack Dice for now, but since Kestal's ability isn't actually a dice modification, who knows?

If we still had the rule that said cancel effects had to be resolved during Compare Results, Palp would definitely win, but that's long gone.

Apologies everyone... read the card wrong, but want to add... without a "During X step" I agree it obvious that there isn't a clear way to say when this happens, but I would wager that his ability would happen during the "modify dice step" because canceling blanks and focus results any other time makes little to no sense to me. However, I am sure an FAQ is coming soon.

11 minutes ago, shaunmerritt said:

Apologies everyone... read the card wrong, but want to add... without a "During X step" I agree it obvious that there isn't a clear way to say when this happens, but I would wager that his ability would happen during the "modify dice step" because canceling blanks and focus results any other time makes little to no sense to me. However, I am sure an FAQ is coming soon.

Fully agree. They need to standardize. Either make it explicit on all cards when an effect takes place, or put it as rule that any dice based effects that don't specifically list some other phase occur during the 'modify dice' phase.

Sorry but nearly all the dice modification effect do not state their trigger window, it is nothing new. By default this is always during modification step except otherwise specified like Palp, C3P0 or HLC.

Sensor Cluster: When defending, you may spend a focus token to change 1 of your blank results to an EVADE result.
Weapons Guidance: When attacking, you may spend a focus token to change 1 of your blank results to a HIT result.
Lieutenant Kestal: When attacking, you may spend 1 focus token to cancel all of the defender's blank and EYE results.
R7 Astromech: Once per round when defending, if you have a target lock on the attacker, you may spend the target lock to choose any or all attack dice. The attacker must reroll the chosen dice.

All of these happen during the proper modification step.

Cancellation isn't a modification.

So it doesn't necessarily fit into the modification step. That's the difference between this and all the other things you mention. THose are modifications, so they have specific timing windows. This is not a modification, so it doesn't. Like 4LOM crew before it, it needs to be specified where it fits into the sequence, otherwise it defaults to 'during compare results' which is obviously not right.

Except 4LOM crew and Crackshot specify the window they must be used. This does not, so by default like all the other not specified card, it is during modification. Until they decide to errata it, there is absolutely no reason to assume it would be at other step. When you consider that it would not even make sence in other step.

39 minutes ago, muribundi said:

Except 4LOM crew and Crackshot specify the window they must be used. This does not, so by default (1) like all the other not specified card, it is during modification. Until they decide to errata it, there is absolutely no reason to assume it would be at other step. When you consider that it would not even make sence in other step (1) .

1. There is no default. That is what posters have requested as a solution, however. Your default is as arbitrary as any other suggestion, until there is a section of the written rules governing it.

2. This is the difference between Rules as Written (RAW) and Rules as Intended (RAI). We are required to play by RAW in official games.

2a. This would hardly be the first time X-Wing has experience a card that doesn't make sense, especially in regards to this flow chart.

1 hour ago, muribundi said:

Except 4LOM crew and Crackshot specify the window they must be used. This does not, so by default like all the other not specified card, it is during modification. Until they decide to errata it, there is absolutely no reason to assume it would be at other step. When you consider that it would not even make sence in other step.

Wrong. Per the rules reference, cancellation effects take place at Compare Results. Kestal doesn't specify otherwise.

Kestal could take place at the same timing window as Palpatine, or she could take place at Attacker Modifies Defence Dice, or she could potentially even be ruled to take place at the same timing step as 4LOM, so you'd have to spend her token before your opponent rolled, without knowing if it would help.

The game does not yet specify, your assumptions notwithstanding.

12 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Per the rules reference, cancellation effects take place at Compare Results.

Does it say that in the rules reference? I can find nothing like it.

14 minutes ago, InquisitorM said:

Does it say that in the rules reference? I can find nothing like it.

It does not. @thespaceinvader may be thinking of the old rulebook, which did have that rule.

I must be.

How bout this? What if we as a community just convince every player, new and old, that Luke Skywalker in a T-65 Xwing is a meta-breaking ship? That way everyone will want to play him, and everyone will have to buy the old core set. Thus everyone will have a copy of the old core set rule book! Then we can do away with all this "My rulebook doesn't say anything about _____ rule...". The appropriate answer to all would be "Git Gud son, fly Luke Skywalker" and then boom! Problem solved.

6 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Cancellation isn't a modification.

So it doesn't necessarily fit into the modification step. That's the difference between this and all the other things you mention. THose are modifications, so they have specific timing windows. This is not a modification, so it doesn't. Like 4LOM crew before it, it needs to be specified where it fits into the sequence, otherwise it defaults to 'during compare results' which is obviously not right.

This is the single best explanation I have seen so far for why we need a FAQ for when Kestal's ability triggers. Bravo my good sir! I was sitting here rolling my eyes thinking "Of course it is during the 'Attacker Modifies Defense Dice' sub-step, why is this even a question?" and then BLAMO: "Cancellation isn't a modification."

If you only cancel focus and blank results at the start of the Compare Results step your opponent will already have all the evades he needs spending focus, autothrusters, etc. It's too late for Kestal to do anything because she can't cancel evade results.

8 hours ago, eRADicator67 said:

If you only cancel focus and blank results at the start of the Compare Results step your opponent will already have all the evades he needs spending focus, autothrusters, etc. It's too late for Kestal to do anything because she can't cancel evade results.

Hence the problem, as Kestal's ability is not a dice modification but rather a dice cancellation it should resolve during the Compare Results step as it is lacking any text that specifically states it occurs during an earlier step. RAW she triggers during the Compare Results step, clearly - as it would be an entirely useless ability - she is meant to trigger earlier in the combat step.

I just TO'd a Store Championship Sunday (The Complex-Scarborough, ME) and released a pre-event local FAQ on our Facebook group page, I ruled she triggers during the "Attacker Modifies Defense Dice Step" citing that she would otherwise be 100% useless. No one flew her anyway...

4 hours ago, ZealuxMyr said:

RAW she triggers during the Compare Results step

Nope. Nothing in RAW to support that. The fact that RAW says that evades cancel hits in the compare results step does not imply that all cancellations are so. RAW, she can do it literally any time she wants while attacking. You could do it before defence dice are even rolled, if you felt like it!

On 7/18/2017 at 0:00 AM, InquisitorM said:

Nope. Nothing in RAW to support that. The fact that RAW says that evades cancel hits in the compare results step does not imply that all cancellations are so. RAW, she can do it literally any time she wants while attacking. You could do it before defence dice are even rolled, if you felt like it!

I'd rather not. If I spent that focus before someone rolled defense and they rolled all natural evades I'd kick myself xD

Just now, eRADicator67 said:

I'd rather not. If I spent that focus before someone rolled defense and they rolled all natural evades I'd kick myself xD

They could easily rule that you have to, the same way 4LOM Crew works.

On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 6:00 PM, InquisitorM said:

Nope. Nothing in RAW to support that. The fact that RAW says that evades cancel hits in the compare results step does not imply that all cancellations are so. RAW, she can do it literally any time she wants while attacking. You could do it before defence dice are even rolled, if you felt like it!

I see your point and, after a review of each FFG document rules document/clarification document, I must concede you are correct on this point.

If you cancel before the defender rolls wouldn't Kestal's ability interrupt the attack step, resolve completely, and then have the defender roll? In such a manner you'd resolve your ability with the defender having zero blank and zero focus results and thus cancel zero dice. I'm no longer arguing that you can't do it in this timing window, clearly you can, but why would I feel like doing so?