Is Luke (jedi knight) vs Darth Vader 1v1 an easy win for Luke?
I am new in this game and I have noticed the following:

Luke sample of 18 attacks against Vader, hit points(5-1-2-2-4-1-6-5-2-5-2-3-6-4-5-6-5-5 ) average of 3.83 hit points per attack
Vader sample of 18 attacks against Luke (2-5-4-0-7-6-3-0-4-0-6-4-5-4-5-3-2-4) average of 3.55 hit points per attack

Both characters have 16 health but Luke 12 deploy cost and vader 18.

So if you play this characters alone in the battlefield, Luke make attack-attack-move and vader move-attack.
So each turn Luke make average 3.83+3.83=7.66 dmg and Vader only 3.55, almost half dmg.
I agree that the sample is small but in order vader to win, luke must do average less than 1.8 dmg per attack and that's impossible.
I think you all agree that Luke's attacks against Vader is an average more than 3 and probably more than 3.5

The difference is so big that I think Luke can also win staying unmoved and vader uses Attack+Force Choke that gives him 3.55+2+strain against Luke's attack+attack 3.83+3.83.

You may say that Vader has an extra skill unused, I mean Brutality that rarely can add him one extra attack to a different target.
But in the hypothetical extreme scenario that vader can use brutality making 2 attacks in the same target(Luke),
Vader makes move/attack/attack against attack/attack/move of Luke so 3.55+3.55 against 3.83+3.83
I know the numbers 3.55 and 3.88 are not correct but it is somehting close to that, so It seems that even in this hypothetical case
that vader can do every turn brutality in the same target(Luke) the 1vs1 would be close to a push(tie) (but deploy cost much different)

I read some posts of players complaining how hard is to beat vader but I realiase that Luke alone with less deploy cost can make an easy win against him.
In case to keep the comparison simple I din't add any cards that can help both of them.
I am staying to the 12 vs 18 deploy cost and an easy win for the 12 points
What I am missing? Am i correct?
If I am, any idea why is that happening? Is it fair?

13 hours ago, alexander75 said:

Is Luke (jedi knight) vs Darth Vader 1v1 an easy win for Luke?
I am new in this game and I have noticed the following:

Luke sample of 18 attacks against Vader, hit points(5-1-2-2-4-1-6-5-2-5-2-3-6-4-5-6-5-5 ) average of 3.83 hit points per attack
Vader sample of 18 attacks against Luke (2-5-4-0-7-6-3-0-4-0-6-4-5-4-5-3-2-4) average of 3.55 hit points per attack

Both characters have 16 health but Luke 12 deploy cost and vader 18.

So if you play this characters alone in the battlefield, Luke make attack-attack-move and vader move-attack.
So each turn Luke make average 3.83+3.83=7.66 dmg and Vader only 3.55, almost half dmg.
I agree that the sample is small but in order vader to win, luke must do average less than 1.8 dmg per attack and that's impossible.
I think you all agree that Luke's attacks against Vader is an average more than 3 and probably more than 3.5

The difference is so big that I think Luke can also win staying unmoved and vader uses Attack+Force Choke that gives him 3.55+2+strain against Luke's attack+attack 3.83+3.83.

You may say that Vader has an extra skill unused, I mean Brutality that rarely can add him one extra attack to a different target.
But in the hypothetical extreme scenario that vader can use brutality making 2 attacks in the same target(Luke),
Vader makes move/attack/attack against attack/attack/move of Luke so 3.55+3.55 against 3.83+3.83
I know the numbers 3.55 and 3.88 are not correct but it is somehting close to that, so It seems that even in this hypothetical case
that vader can do every turn brutality in the same target(Luke) the 1vs1 would be close to a push(tie) (but deploy cost much different)

I read some posts of players complaining how hard is to beat vader but I realiase that Luke alone with less deploy cost can make an easy win against him.
In case to keep the comparison simple I din't add any cards that can help both of them.
I am staying to the 12 vs 18 deploy cost and an easy win for the 12 points
What I am missing? Am i correct?
If I am, any idea why is that happening? Is it fair?

you miss that:

Luke jedi easilly wins? XD

I wouldn't be too sure, have you tried that out ingame?

This graph from http://mattyellen.github.io/imperial-assault-calculator/ may help with the discussion. It shows each figure's attack against the opposing figure's defense.

1) being Vader attacking Luke

2) Vader w/Driven by Hatred attacking Luke

3) being Luke attacking Vader

It doesn't take into account Force choke or Luke's ability for the "free" attack, but helps with the damage output. Vader is more likely to do higher damage than Luke since Vader is rolling 2 black die and can re-roll one of them every time he's attacked. In other words he has a higher probability of rolling solid defense.

Also, if its just 1 on 1, Vader could easily stay far away and force choke each round since that is only line of sight. Yes Luke could just stay out of LOS, but it could also mean he's not close enough to attack. I think it would be a close match up.

Driven by Hatred I think might give Vader the edge.

edit: added the upcoming Driven by hatred Vader fix.

26 minutes ago, wannabepudge said:

It doesn't take into account Force choke or Luke's ability for the "free" attack, but helps with the damage output. Vader is more likely to do higher damage than Luke since Vader is rolling 2 black die and can re-roll one of them every time he's attacked. In other words he has a higher probability of rolling solid defense.

Also, if its just 1 on 1, Vader could easily stay far away and force choke each round since that is only line of sight. Yes Luke could just stay out of LOS, but it could also mean he's not close enough to attack. I think it would be a close match up.

If vader tries to make chock then he have 4 movements points so Luke with 8 movement points can meet him and make the free attack and after move at least one tile away from vader.
In the next turn vader can either move+attack or move +chock.
If move+attack then Luke can move attack attack move.
If vader move away and chock then Luke move attack move.
So the damage result is Vader vs Luke either chock vs 1 attack or 1 attack(vader) vs 2 attacks(lukes).

The graph shows higher probability for higher damage of vader, but do not show the average damage.
Dont forget 1 out of 6 vader no damage at all. I think the average is about 3.5-4 for both so still Luke ease win.
Or I miss something?

Please dont complicate the comparison with extra cards that can favor both which may add to the deploy cost.
I speak for a net comparison Luke vs Vader 1v1.
deploy 12 vs deploy 18 thats the matter

14 minutes ago, alexander75 said:

If vader tries to make chock then he have 4 movements points so Luke with 8 movement points can meet him and make the free attack and after move at least one tile away from vader.
In the next turn vader can either move+attack or move +chock.
If move+attack then Luke can move attack attack move.
If vader move away and chock then Luke move attack move.
So the damage result is Vader vs Luke either chock vs 1 attack or 1 attack(vader) vs 2 attacks(lukes).

The graph shows higher probability for higher damage of vader, but do not show the average damage.
Dont forget 1 out of 6 vader no damage at all. I think the average is about 3.5-4 for both so still Luke ease win.
Or I miss something?

Please dont complicate the comparison with extra cards that can favor both which may add to the deploy cost.
I speak for a net comparison Luke vs Vader 1v1.
deploy 12 vs deploy 18 thats the matter

Of course Luke is better. Vader was released with the core set and is getting a skirmish upgrade to cost 5 point and less because he was so overcosted. What's the arguement here?

1 minute ago, alexander75 said:

If vader tries to make chock then he have 4 movements points so Luke with 8 movement points can meet him and make the free attack and after move at least one tile away from vader.
In the next turn if vader can either move+attack or move +chock. If move+attack then Luke can move attack attack move.
If vader move away and chock then Luke move attack move.
So the damage result is Vader vs Luke either chock vs 1 attack or 1 attack(vader) vs 2 attacks(lukes).

The graph shows higher probability for higher damage of vader, but do not show the average damage.
Dont forget 1 out of 6 vader no damage at all. I think the average is about 3.5-4 for both so still Luke ease win.
Or I miss something?

It also doesn't take into consideration Vader's defensive re-roll, which means the average for Luke's attacks will be at least slightly less than the 3.5 - 4.

How are you determining your averages? I have not found a good site that lets you account for all or most of the variances that come with figures. Inherent defense or offense, re-rolls, or the surge abilities.

I like the site I pulled that graph from since you can add all but re-rolls and get a probability of doing the damage.

And Vader's force choke strategy would have to be for him to be far enough away that Luke would have to use 2 movements to get 1 attack, and therefore leave himself vulnerable to Vader. If Vader can manage to always be 6+ spaces away from Luke (assuming Luke moves in, attacks and moves at least 2 spaces away), he can limit Luke to 1 attack per activation. Not saying that would be easy, but in that case, I think Vader takes the win.

But I do think that it could be a close match up.

2 minutes ago, TheUnsullied said:

Of course Luke is better. Vader was released with the core set and is getting a skirmish upgrade to cost 5 point and less because he was so overcosted. What's the arguement here?

If its 1v1, cost is taken out of the equation.

7 minutes ago, wannabepudge said:

And Vader's force choke strategy would have to be for him to be far enough away that Luke would have to use 2 movements to get 1 attack, and therefore leave himself vulnerable to Vader. If Vader can manage to always be 6+ spaces away from Luke (assuming Luke moves in, attacks and moves at least 2 spaces away), he can limit Luke to 1 attack per activation. Not saying that would be easy, but in that case, I think Vader takes the win.

But I do think that it could be a close match up.

If heroic can take part during a movement action
then if vader from 2 spaces goes to 6 and then he make chock , after Luke make move(4) move(2) heroic move(2).
resulting to chock vs attack.
chock + strain I think is 2+1=3 dmg against the attack of around 3.5-4 of Luke. so still Luke better
I made the sample by myself by droping the dices and taking the right desicions according to the dices results.
I know 18 times are not too much but they give the general idea.
for example 3 out of 18 vader did 0 damage as much as we excpected.

23 minutes ago, TheUnsullied said:

Of course Luke is better. Vader was released with the core set and is getting a skirmish upgrade to cost 5 point and less because he was so overcosted. What's the arguement here?

Sorry I am totaly new player and thats why I ask for something odd that I noticed.
I didnt know about that card.
If this card with -5 deploy which also benefits vader as I see comes to play
(and it needs to benefit him because even vader with 13 deploy cost still losing from Luke)
, it means that it is a known issue for the skirmish and they want to balance it

1 minute ago, alexander75 said:

Sorry I am totaly new player and thats why I ask for something odd that I noticed.
I didnt know about that card.
If this card with -5 deploy which also benefits vader as I see comes to play
(and it needs to benefit him because even vader with 13 deploy cost still losing from Luke)
, it means that it is a known issue for the skirmish and they want to balance it

Yup. They are going through and rebalancing some of the old iconic figures because they were overcosted. In the next big box expansion there is supposed to be two more fixes for other deployment cards(likely a combination of Han, Chewie, Boba or maybe even something for vehicles)

Also don't forget this

I've had the exact same question when Jedi Luke was released: can he just beat up his dad to pieces now? Until I factored in Zillo (So Pierce 3 becomes pierce 1). Also it's unrealistic in a real game for Jedi Luke to be able to attack x2 every round

Driven by hatred was just a surprise (to be sure, but a welcome one)

Driven by hatred vader will be the unique vader in the nearest future. Is more reasonable compare jedi luke with this. In that case Vader (13) vs Luke (12) vader wins. Add +1 and a reroll to his average attack against luke, and then, add a force chocke (3 damage) or another attack (Red+Red). Without doubts Vader slain his son. Only some factor X can save him, but this is not average.

Of course, let's not forget that Luke is the son of a Skywalker :-)

-ryanjamal

I think if you just assume both sitting still and beating the crap out of each other with dice rolls.

Vader w/Driven by Hatred
1st attack +1 dmg, RRY
2nd attack +1 dmg, RR

Jedi Luke
1st attack +1 dmg, BGY
2nd attack +1 dmg, BGY

What's the result if you do this?

Assuming you roll 2nd best defensive side on average with each:

Vader:
4 block (average 2 block per black die)

Luke:
1 block/2 evade (cuz Luke has auto +1 evade)

So at first it appears Vader has the better, but Luke is pretty much a lock for a +1 surge so that pierce 3 = now 1 block on vader. So really Vader and Luke are both rolling the same 1 block on average. So then you just need to compare what is going to do the most damage. In the end, if Luke rolls all blanks or all dodges, he easily loses or easily wins.

RRYRR or BGYBGY are your choices then, what does more pure damage? That's your answer.

~D

Thank you all for your ansewers, I really appriciated it.
So I think even be a newbe I was right to notice this obvious lack of balance between these characters,
and thanks to be informed that it will be fixed soon.
But reducing the deploy cost of vader at 13(plus benefits) it is solving the balance problem between these two.
But at the same time it increasing the unbalance between these 2 and all other cards.
I mean all other cards of deploy cost 12 or more is by far worse and all other of lower cost are overcosted.
I think if Luke Jedi was introduced weaker with a higher deploy cost the balance would been kept with no changes to other cards,
Now it seems to me that all deploy costs need to be redesigned, something really hard to be done.
At least the balance will be restored between imperial and rebels with a cheap(to deploy) strong card for both.
The bad thing is that you are forced to always contain them in your deck if you dont want to start with a disadvantage,
because 12 or 13(Luke's and Vader's) points equals the power of other cards with deploy cost maybe around 25 points.

What you are discovering is that wave one figures are very weak compared to the current power curve. Jedi Luke is in line with figures released with Jabba's Realm, but unfortunately that wave set the standard that earlier waves struggle to live up to. FFG is releasing skirmish upgrades to help reintroduce iconic figures to alleviate this. We got an updated Luke and an IG88 fix, and a Vader fix plus two others are on the way. Making Luke weaker would have only kept him in line with figures that most competitive players consider unplayable. This way, yes many earlier figures are left behind, but it is reintroducing iconic figures to the game for a while, and that's a good thing.

-ryanjamal

The good thing too Alexander75 is that they already did this with IG-88 and Focus on the Kill upgrade card that came with him from the Jawa exp pack. Rumor is (besides Vader) we will get two other iconic chars from Wave 1-3 with similar Skirmish Upgrades. Hopefully that inc Han Solo and Boba Fett!

~D

4 hours ago, HoodieDM said:

The good thing too Alexander75 is that they already did this with IG-88 and Focus on the Kill upgrade card that came with him from the Jawa exp pack. Rumor is (besides Vader) we will get two other iconic chars from Wave 1-3 with similar Skirmish Upgrades. Hopefully that inc Han Solo and Boba Fett!

~D

I don't think it will be a boba fett fix sadly. He desperately needs it, but there has never been expansion that has affected other expansions (yet). Maybe some tiles here or there, but nothing outside of that. Since Boba is from twin shadows, they would have to set a new precedent.

3 minutes ago, MadFuhrer said:

I don't think it will be a boba fett fix sadly. He desperately needs it, but there has never been expansion that has affected other expansions (yet). Maybe some tiles here or there, but nothing outside of that. Since Boba is from twin shadows, they would have to set a new precedent.

Boba and IG-88 both came in blister packs. The fix for IG came in the jawa pack. That seems to be an example of a pack affecting something from another pack

21 minutes ago, Fightwookies said:

Boba and IG-88 both came in blister packs. The fix for IG came in the jawa pack. That seems to be an example of a pack affecting something from another pack

But Ig-88 is a Core box character. He is wave 1. Expansions are all based on what comes in the expansion + wave 1 units. Vader is wave 1, same with Han.

5 hours ago, MadFuhrer said:

But Ig-88 is a Core box character. He is wave 1. Expansions are all based on what comes in the expansion + wave 1 units. Vader is wave 1, same with Han.

Vader came in the core box. IG-88 didn't. You can't use the tokens in tournament play. So anyone who wants to use the IG fix had to get both the IG pack and the jawa pack.

Boba is from an early wave and is both an iconic character and horribly overcosted. He'll get a fix. Probably the next merc figure.

1 hour ago, Fightwookies said:

Vader came in the core box. IG-88 didn't. You can't use the tokens in tournament play. So anyone who wants to use the IG fix had to get both the IG pack and the jawa pack.

Boba is from an early wave and is both an iconic character and horribly overcosted. He'll get a fix. Probably the next merc figure.

Agreed on the next Merc figure for sure. I don't think his buff with be as big as Vaders though because he's already a pain to put damage onto.

32 minutes ago, TheUnsullied said:

Agreed on the next Merc figure for sure. I don't think his buff with be as big as Vaders though because he's already a pain to put damage onto.

His defense is great, but he needs quite a bit more offense to justify cost. We're going a little bit off topic, so here is where I outlined what I think would be a good fix for Boba.

A friend of mine and I were really curious to playtest Luke Jedi vs Vader and so we decided to mount a random skirmish map (which was Prison Break quest) and we played 6 games.
Games Settings: No quest related doors, figures and tokens (and no terminals aswell), no consumables at all, victory achieved only by terminating the opponent.
Armies Settings: No Initiative passing at the end of each round, no Command decks.
Rebel Army: Luke Jedi (http://tabletopadmiral.com/static/main/images/Luke Skywalker Jedi/Luke Skywalker (Jedi).png)
Imperial Army: Darth Vader (http://tabletopadmiral.com/static/main/images/Core/Darth Vader.png) + Driven by Hatred (http://tabletopadmiral.com/static/main/images/Heart of the Empire/Driven by Hatred.png)

Wanna know? Actually, it's not Luke the one who controls the field despite of his free attack, but it's Vader, playing the games showed that reality pretty clearly!
Luke and Vader have the same movement speed (4 and 4), and yeah it's true that Luke can move, attack and then move away from Vader, but doing so only helps Vader out. Like every skirmish game, positioning is the key and thanks to Force Choke, Vader controls the board:
True Fact #1: If Luke attacks Vader twice, then Vader swings Luke twice (if not even 3 times with Choke). With his activation, Luke can move - attack - attack and he needs to end his movement not adiacent to Vader, in order to prevent him from attacking and choking together. But not only, because if Luke end his activation adiacent to Vader, Vader can then attack, move 4 spaces away and then move 1 more space away and Choke Luke, and by being 5 spaces away, Luke can only swing Vader once during his next activation. In conclusion, Luke must be within 3 spaces away from Vader, instead of 4, in order to minimize incoming damage.
True Fact #2: If Luke ends his activation 5 or more spaces away from Vader, he only delays incoming damage for 1 turn, instead of not being hit. Well, this happens only if Vader's player is not dumb, because Force Choke in this specific issue is a double edged scissor. Sure, if you have no Line of Sight, you could move and choke Luke, but then you'll be swinged twice by him because in most of the cases you're ending vader's activation within 4 spaces away from Luke. But there's one way you can outplay Luke, which is by using your turn to further move away from the Jedi. Luke can only attack you while adiacent, so chances are 2 now: if you are within 8 spaces away from Luke, then he will reach you and swing once, while on your next activation you will swing, choke and swing again (which is something Luke never wants), otherwise if you are 9/12 spaces away from Luke, then Luke won't attack you during his next activation but he can just get closer while you will ALWAYS deal damage to him, by choking and attacking (at least you will choke twice, which is 6 true damage). In conclusion, then, Luke must keep himself close to Vader in order not to be outplayed.
True Fact #3: Vader's skill to reroll 1 defense die makes Luke's damage slightly lower than his. I guess no words should be needed here, so i'll be short: Rerolling is, once again, an insanely powerful skill. If Luke could reroll his white die, then he would absolutely be the best character until the end of times, but truth is Luke's source of +1 damage is quite low, despite of his pierce 3. Generally, after rerolling 1 black die, Luke deals 2 or 3 damage with each attack, ofc with some peaks of 4 and (VEEERY RARELY) 5. On the other half, Luke has only 2 rolls to prevent Vader from dealing 4 or 5 damage to him, which are Dodge and B1E1 (if Vader's hit is medium/low), plus Vader being able to reroll 1 attack die is a real punch to Luke's stomach. In conclusion, then, Luke's most risking/rewarding chance to dodge is counterbalanced by Vader's heavier melee attack.

Games Results: 4 Games won by Vader, 2 Games won by Luke Jedi.