4 hours ago, YasukiKaito said:

How would you easily play around his ability? Even if you use a throw away action as your first move it is still delaying your first impact to the battle, like a built in sneak attack or going twice as defender. Is there something I'm not seeing here? (I mean this as a legitimate question - not meant to come off as snarky at all )

I'm meant to come as snarky with all these "could be played around" and "neutralized by winning conflict".

I mean c'mon we're playing a card game.. doesnt tempo, card advantage, negation mean anyting anymore when translated to LCG?

want to neuter Kisada and win a conflict? Guess what, Kisada always does his thing on then first conflict each round while all every other Clan Champ is OPT.

end snark. Want coffee.

1 minute ago, Ishi Tonu said:

@williamobrien so did you want to rank the Champs and give your reasoning behind it, or did you just come in here to piss in my cornflakes?

It's clear that nobody is going to change your opinion of Kisada, no matter how misguided it may be. But simply saying he's easy to beat 'because' doesn't make it so. If your simply going to assume you will always have 5 cards to waste and an excess of actions to choose from there is no way to have a serious discussion about it. Good luck to you.

Since its clear you have Kisada on the bottom, care to come back to the topic with your rankings on the other Champs and why?

I'm not sure what brought about this hostility? All I did was lay out arguments and counterarguments. My first two posts weren't even replies to you.

I didn't want to do an actual ranking yet since I haven't played with Yokuni or Kisada, but I did want to discuss the Kisada card. Maybe I should have done that in the overall Crab thread.

Here's how I would rank them with that caveat:

I do think Kisada is the worst so far, because I think he has the lowest floor of any of them. I see more scenarios where he has a low impact on the board, and I think he clashes with the clan's mechanics more than the other champs do. In the Lion/Crane games I've played, the value of a single action isn't really that high. It's possible this is different in other matchups.

Hotaru/Toturi are the same card, so it's hard to separate them. An argument can be made that Hotaru is better because Crane emphasizes swarm less. An argument can be made Toturi is better because of upside with Sashimono and the Spiritcaller. To actually separate them I think we need to see what the overall balance of MIL/POL is once all the clans are revealed. If I had to choose right now I would say Hotaru is a little better because Lion kind of has a proxy "champion" in Honored General that is worth a little more than Toturi in the Crane matchup thanks to coming in Honored (protecting from Shameful Display/Art of Peace and making Voice of Honor hard to play).

Yokuni is the best because even when he is blank (which I think will happen more often than people think) he has the best numbers, and he has the highest upside.

10 minutes ago, williamobrien said:

I'm not sure what brought about this hostility? All I did was lay out arguments and counterarguments. My first two posts weren't even replies to you.

I didn't want to do an actual ranking yet since I haven't played with Yokuni or Kisada, but I did want to discuss the Kisada card. Maybe I should have done that in the overall Crab thread.

Here's how I would rank them with that caveat:

I do think Kisada is the worst so far, because I think he has the lowest floor of any of them. I see more scenarios where he has a low impact on the board, and I think he clashes with the clan's mechanics more than the other champs do. In the Lion/Crane games I've played, the value of a single action isn't really that high. It's possible this is different in other matchups.

Hotaru/Toturi are the same card, so it's hard to separate them. An argument can be made that Hotaru is better because Crane emphasizes swarm less. An argument can be made Toturi is better because of upside with Sashimono and the Spiritcaller. To actually separate them I think we need to see what the overall balance of MIL/POL is once all the clans are revealed. If I had to choose right now I would say Hotaru is a little better because Lion kind of has a proxy "champion" in Honored General that is worth a little more than Toturi in the Crane matchup thanks to coming in Honored (protecting from Shameful Display/Art of Peace and making Voice of Honor hard to play).

Yokuni is the best because even when he is blank (which I think will happen more often than people think) he has the best numbers, and he has the highest upside.

Kisada's ability is better than literally all of their abilities combined. At least when you consider it's about winning battles, not profiting from the battles afterwards. Yokuni's is good but is situational on the board state and sometimes completely useless.

Everyone who thinks Kisada is the worst is operating on this pretense that if they can remove him from the battle using two actions they somehow don't have to deal with anything else. As if the Crab player isn't going to have any other characters. They all cost 5. Kisada, much less conditionally and much more effectively, wins battles after he hits the table. He wins battles he doesn't even participate in.

Do we even know if cloud the mind works on him? It doesn't blank traits. Have they clarified what traits are? In old5r that ability would have been a trait wouldn't it?

In my opinion Kisada's ability is one I REALLY need to playtest before I can say just how good it is. Seems like his quality could be pretty situational, but if all seven clans are going to typically be doing only a handful of actions per conflict then he becomes pretty monstrous. I know this is a thread about who is the best SO FAR, but I really want to see the rest of the unrevealed cards before I pass judgement.

Togashi Yokuni is obviously very good. His ability is strong, and it's not reliant on your opponent's choices to be good because you can always use it to copy one of your own characters' abilities. I'd say that, of the four revealed champions, he is definitely the strongest (full disclosure: I am a Dragon, so bias is likely :P). His ability does make him a big target for removal--however, that's going to be true of any high-cost strong card. I could see one of the future champions being better than him if they have some sort of built-in way to protect themselves from removal/card blanking, or if they for some reason cost less than five.

Compared to Kisada and Yokuni, Hotaru and Toturi's abilities seem a tad lackluster to me. Kisada and Yokuni both force your opponent to alter their gameplay to compensate (Kisada forces them to waste an action, Yokuni forces them to either remove the champion or be cautious in playing cards with strong abilities). Hotaru and Toturi just make your rewards for winning an attack a little sweeter, and give you a bonus for successfully defending. That's not to say they're terrible, however. Both would be GREAT in an honor deck (triggering the Air ring twice gives you a whopping four honor), and double Void draining a powerful character is nothing to be sneezed at. However, in my opinion their usefulness still seems to be more limited than Yokuni's and Kisada's.

As it stands, I'd rank the champions 1) Yokuni, 2) MAYBE Kisada (depending on the match-up), 3) Hotaru/Toturi (I don't know the ins and outs of the Crane and Lion enough to give one the edge over the other).

I'm sorry I thought I had eluded to my ranking.

1. Yokuni - versatility

2. Hotaru - From what I've seen the Crane best at attacking and defending the political conflict. That being said Hotaru adds adds the most to that styling without the crane suffering overly in military.

3. Toturi - While his ability is strong, it is functionally the same as Hotaru's but I think there will be more tricks to deal with military at the moment so I think the answers to Toturi will be more accessible. He is almost interchangeable with Hotaru at #2 but given the lack of options to deal with political conflicts to this point I put her on top. Not saying there are none but, I feel like political harder to deal with and crane gain a military benefit while making their political disturbingly good.

4. Kisada - There is nothing inherently wrong with Kisada but his ability comes with a turn off switch that your opponent can do on his or her terms. Additionally he is not as versitile as Yokuni And he also doesn't further the more obvious crab military strategy significantly more than other crab characters for his cost. Also, when honored he is the smallest of champions stat-wise and even when dishonored Hotaru is still larger in political conflicts and Yokuni is at least equal in political conflicts.

38 minutes ago, MoZi said:

Do we even know if cloud the mind works on him? It doesn't blank traits. Have they clarified what traits are? In old5r that ability would have been a trait wouldn't it?

I believe traits are defined as the titles beneath a character, such as champion, bushi, shugenja, ect. These have no inherent effect - such as a spell may require you control a Shugenja, but a Shugenja does not allow you to play spells - if you catch the difference.

These abilities without activation triggers, such as Kisada and Asahina Storyteller are passive abilities.

I do think people are underestimating the challenge of Kisada. Not only does he cancel the first action in a (possibly each) conflict, he is also a 7 mil to start with. Yokuni may be able to get to 8/8, and Toturi and Hotaru may be able to get to 9... but that all requires honoring them first and dishonoring them practically neuters them. Kisada is 7 right up front, and that 7 cannot be dealt with through dishonoring him. While an extra action or two targets Kisada solo, Toturi, Hotaru, and Yokuni all require a bit more than simply being on the board to merit being targeted. I can't say for certain where he sits power wise, but I do think people are underestimating the problem Kisada will be.

I am worried about Kisada being too weak by having just 2 pol. I think 8 mil or 3 pol would give him enough of a burst to be more obviously powerful.

18 minutes ago, MoZi said:

Do we even know if cloud the mind works on him? It doesn't blank traits. Have they clarified what traits are? In old5r that ability would have been a trait wouldn't it?

I believe bushi, shigenja, etc. are traits and Covert, Pride, etc. are keywords. Or maybe I have that backwards. But it's not like people playing Kisada won't run Let Go or Miya Mystic.

While it does appear CTM would stop Kisada's ability the same could be said of any character with a good ability. To me that argument seems flimsy at best because there is this false assumption that a player will always have the right answer at the right time and that simply isn't the case.

8 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I believe bushi, shigenja, etc. are traits and Covert, Pride, etc. are keywords. Or maybe I have that backwards. But it's not like people playing Kisada won't run Let Go or Miya Mystic.

While it does appear CTM would stop Kisada's ability the same could be said of any character with a good ability. To me that argument seems flimsy at best because there is this false assumption that a player will always have the right answer at the right time and that simply isn't the case.

I think this is an important thing people are overlooking in their estimation of Kisada's ability. Hotaru and Toturi are both basically balls of stats that are weaker than Kisada unless honored. Yokuni is the only champion of these that comes out full strength like Kisada does, and Yokuni is just as susceptible to CTM as Kisada is. The difference is that Yokuni just gives you the option to use an ability on any other card, which is also situational, while Kisada's ability is guaranteed on the first conflict, and if you win it just keeps going.

What Kisada represents is a simple no-combo no-conditions champion. He is a ball of stats that comes out the gate stronger, and more reliable than any other champion.

The only weakness of Kisada is the weakness of the Crab - where is their POL defense?

The Crab are supposed to be the defense clan, where is their POL defense? What are they going to do when the Crane go first?

So far, for me, Kisada > Hoturi > Yokuni > Toturi.

I get the feeling Kisada will remain my favourite. Not only is he sick as a character in fluff but I love effects like his. Brutal card is brutal.

1 hour ago, williamobrien said:

I'm not sure what brought about this hostility? All I did was lay out arguments and counterarguments. My first two posts weren't even replies to you.

Apologies if I came off as hostile. I just think your opinion of Kisada is way off base and lacks any real supporting argument from you that will allow any sort of debate/discussion on the matter. You've made up your mind based on what I consider to be faulty logic, but, you're convinced and will not even consider a secenario where Kisada's ability can't just be overcome by some crafty play because you will always have an easy answer for it. Even when your own examples fall flat under scrutiny, you just say it over again so it must be so..... sorry I'm not buying what you're selling.

I don't expect you to agree with me and I could very well be wrong and Kisada could just end up being complete trash.......but it won't be because his ability was always shut off by the opponent's stronghold or because everyone always has so many actions to choose from, they can always afford to spare one. There may be times when Kisada gets outplayed, but, to assert it will be easy to do is overboard, imo.

An argument you made that does have some merit is a deck that has a lot of attachments. Of course it doesn't address how you intend to pay for all these attachments or how you would overcome attachment destruction.....but expanding upon that to include decks that are able do most of their actions outside of the conflict is something to consider. I'm sure this will have to exist in some capacity. The problem with this approach is that this makes any in-conflict actions even more important. You have to enter the conflict so far ahead of Crab that you can win without taking any actions. That is not an easy task. Just straight up math comparisons with Crab are not going to end well when they Banzai into the 'zerker doubling ability.

I think the reason I feel strongly for Kisada on this (besides my bias). Is that in a vacuum he is best equipped to win battles in a myriad of situations. Like Shosuko was saying. It's just consistency and results. They did a really good job of building the pragmatic nature of the Crab into this card.

Hotaru and Toturi look good winning and people notice it.

Yokuni is terrifying yet aloof and prone to eplileptic spasm that leave him vulnerable.

Kisada wins at all costs. You tell your children stories about him before bed so they behave themselves. He grinds up your bones to make his bread and then he uses your guts for mortar on the Carpenter Wall. His card screams, "I don't care what you think about me and don't you dare $&@% with me."

Thanks FFG! Sweet dreams don't let the tetsubugs bite.

7 hours ago, shosuko said:

I think this is an important thing people are overlooking in their estimation of Kisada's ability. Hotaru and Toturi are both basically balls of stats that are weaker than Kisada unless honored. Yokuni is the only champion of these that comes out full strength like Kisada does, and Yokuni is just as susceptible to CTM as Kisada is. The difference is that Yokuni just gives you the option to use an ability on any other card, which is also situational, while Kisada's ability is guaranteed on the first conflict, and if you win it just keeps going.

What Kisada represents is a simple no-combo no-conditions champion. He is a ball of stats that comes out the gate stronger, and more reliable than any other champion.

The only weakness of Kisada is the weakness of the Crab - where is their POL defense?

The Crab are supposed to be the defense clan, where is their POL defense? What are they going to do when the Crane go first?

Although troubling from a Crab perspective, that problem does at least make thematic sense. Their vulnerability to court intrigue has often been portrayed as the clan's biggest weakness.

7 hours ago, shosuko said:

I think this is an important thing people are overlooking in their estimation of Kisada's ability. Hotaru and Toturi are both basically balls of stats that are weaker than Kisada unless honored. Yokuni is the only champion of these that comes out full strength like Kisada does, and Yokuni is just as susceptible to CTM as Kisada is. The difference is that Yokuni just gives you the option to use an ability on any other card, which is also situational, while Kisada's ability is guaranteed on the first conflict, and if you win it just keeps going.

What Kisada represents is a simple no-combo no-conditions champion. He is a ball of stats that comes out the gate stronger, and more reliable than any other champion.

The only weakness of Kisada is the weakness of the Crab - where is their POL defense?

The Crab are supposed to be the defense clan, where is their POL defense? What are they going to do when the Crane go first?

I'm glad to find someone else who sees the glaring political weaknesses of the clan. So far every time I bring up the advantage I feel Crane have in the matchup, I get someone who insists Crab aren't politically weak. Huh? The number of characters the average Crab board state will have to dedicate to block Height of Fashion'd Kakita Asami will cripple their ability to much else, and Crane can levy more significant political attacks easily. And who is to say what nastiness Scorpion will bring? As far as I am concerned, Crab roll over to any politically leaning deck

1.) Alternasai

38 minutes ago, Zetsubou said:

I'm glad to find someone else who sees the glaring political weaknesses of the clan. So far every time I bring up the advantage I feel Crane have in the matchup, I get someone who insists Crab aren't politically weak. Huh? The number of characters the average Crab board state will have to dedicate to block Height of Fashion'd Kakita Asami will cripple their ability to much else, and Crane can levy more significant political attacks easily. And who is to say what nastiness Scorpion will bring? As far as I am concerned, Crab roll over to any politically leaning deck

Crane is overwhelmingly strong in political. That doesn't make Crab weak in political.

Please see my calculations in @Tonbo Karasu 's statistics thread:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/253215-character-statistics/

The Crab are very well balanced overall in terms of military vs political strength. Yes, Crane can force one through if they want to. That's never not going to be the case. But Crab make up for that by having, by a vast margin, significantly stronger military than Crane.

Just now, Joe From Cincinnati said:

Crane is overwhelmingly strong in political. That doesn't make Crab weak in political.

Please see my calculations in @Tonbo Karasu 's statistics thread:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/253215-character-statistics/

The Crab are very well balanced overall in terms of military vs political strength. Yes, Crane can force one through if they want to. That's never not going to be the case. But Crab make up for that by having, by a vast margin, significantly stronger military than Crane.

Damnit Joe I'm already crafting a response to that very post!

28 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

1.) Alternasai

Was cut off, sry. (Was a joke, obviously)

Seriously, I can't really rank them. I like all their abilities. If I had to chose, Togashi (1) has the most appeal. I love his ability and it speaks to my tricksy heart. Toturi (2) is a strong card that I've played with the most, and certainly between him and spirit caller I've had a lot of fun. Kisada (3) is neat. But I'm not convinced, I don't play a heavy defense, so for me I don't feel I'd see his ability that useful. But I also never had a chance to play Crab. Hotaru (4) by virtue of the crane makes her the least interesting. I admit to a strong bias against the Crane and their play, so while i like her, i don't care much for her card.

3 hours ago, Joe From Cincinnati said:

Crane is overwhelmingly strong in political. That doesn't make Crab weak in political.

Please see my calculations in @Tonbo Karasu 's statistics thread:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/253215-character-statistics/

The Crab are very well balanced overall in terms of military vs political strength. Yes, Crane can force one through if they want to. That's never not going to be the case. But Crab make up for that by having, by a vast margin, significantly stronger military than Crane.

The biggest strength of Kisada is in winning that first defense, if the Crane can push through a political win then Kisada's ability defaults to its weakest form against them. Sure, its 1 match up - but it still concerns me. I'd like to see Crab as a serious contender, not just a splash resource. We'll see as more cards are released

Has anyone played Lion v Crab yet? I wonder how that one goes.

5 hours ago, RandomJC said:

I admit to a strong bias against the Crane and their play, so while i like her, i don't care much for her card.

And thus the Unicorn/Phoenix peace talks began on a solid note of mutual understanding!

Thus far, I regard the real tussle for top champ as being between Kisada and Yokuni- with Kisada holding the edge because his trick can work if he's just sitting at home having a cuppa...

8 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

And thus the Unicorn/Phoenix peace talks began on a solid note of mutual understanding!

Thus far, I regard the real tussle for top champ as being between Kisada and Yokuni- with Kisada holding the edge because his trick can work if he's just sitting at home having a cuppa...

I was kind of hoping for little more persecution and stake burning before we hit the peace talk stage.

4 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

And thus the Unicorn/Phoenix peace talks began on a solid note of mutual understanding!

Thus far, I regard the real tussle for top champ as being between Kisada and Yokuni- with Kisada holding the edge because his trick can work if he's just sitting at home having a cuppa...

It's hard for me. Toturi/Haturo are solid cards that have very stable abilities that feed into their clan strengths. Yokuni is an awesome ability, that can get hosed by a poor bored state. and Kisada is a cool passive ability, and his Mil stat is insane. In my mind there isn't a clear winner in whose best.

But once the chips fall Altansarnai will be my #1. Because...obvious reasons.

13 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

I was kind of hoping for little more persecution and stake burning before we hit the peace talk stage.

Dude, we're the Phoenix Clan. If our hilariously inconsistent portrayal in the past teaches us anything, it's that we try to do both. Simultaneously.

In other news related to our grim history, I too want to see just how they're going to convince us that Tsukune is worth the same amount as these other stat-crushing monstrosities.

1 minute ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Dude, we're the Phoenix Clan. If our hilariously inconsistent portrayal in the past teaches us anything, it's that we try to do both. Simultaneously.

In other news related to our grim history, I too want to see just how they're going to convince us that Tsukune is worth the same amount as these other stat-crushing monstrosities.

Now I REALLY hope the Phoenix are next. They are a perpetual example of why 'rule by commitee' is a bad idea.

As for Tsukune, until the fic hits, I'm not entirely convinced she's champ. The 'tough unique' yes but not necessarily champ, so her ability might NOT be that awe inspiring.

The point is, our "tough unique" right now will have some work to do to justify the investment if resources...

2 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

The point is, our "tough unique" right now will have some work to do to justify the investment if resources...

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a bit worried about her. Even if she's not the champion, she's a 5 cost unique who is already behind the curve stat-wise.