Apologies as I'm sure this has probably been asked 1000x before, but here is my question.

When I role a critical hit, does is count if the shields are still up? In other words, my MC80 rolls two hits and a critical hit. The ISD I'm targeting has full shields. In this instance, does the critical hit just count as a regular hit? Or can you apply critical effects/hits even when the shields are up?

Also- a face up critical effect card on a ship is the same as a damage card, correct?

Thanks in advance!!

Yes and No.

There are multiple critical effects... Technically, all critical effects can be resolved when there is at least one (colour appropriate) critical symbol showing at the appropriate time.

Its just that some of those Critical effects won't do anything unless you're also dealing Damage Cards...

To Explain:

You Roll all of your Dice. The enemy uses their brace/redirect, etc (but no contain, for the purposes of this test).

So we take the ISD above, and you've thrown CRIT, HIT, HIT, HIT/CRIT on it.

At the start of the "Damage" sub-phase, you get to resolve a Critical Effect.

The default Critical effect is, "The First Damage card dealt this attack is dealt face up."

- THIS HAPPENS.

Take that Critical Effect, know that its happening, and then move on.

NOW you count up how much damage you have done... You do this by counting HIT and CRIT symbols... This gives you a Number.

This number is halved due to brace, if applicable.

THEN, you deal it as "damage",. one point at a time......

IF it is dealt to shields, that removes a shield.

IF it is dealt to Hull, then it deals a Damage card...... But wait, IF you have the Default Critical Effect in play, the *FIRST* time this happens, its face up....

... If you hit nothing but shields, the CRITICAL EFFECT HAS BEEN ACTIVATED - but you never get to actually use it.

This is important, when you deal with "NON-DEFAULT" Critical effects.

Take the above roll, say you have Assault Proton Torpedoes .

You elect to use their Critical effect: "Black Crit: Deal a Face Up Damage Card."

- You roll your Dice, they use their defense tokens, and now... You get to the first bit of the Damage step.

You have a Black Crit showing, so you say, "Deal a Face Up Damage card."

BOOM.

That happens, Shields or Not. We havn't counted any damage yet, we havn't resolved a Brace, or a Redirect... The Critical effect says DEAL A FACE UP DAMAGE CARD , so deal that card .

NOW, you count the damage you have showing. Halve it due to brace if appropriate.

THEN you deal it out, one point at a time.

But any damage to shields reduces a shield, and any damage to hull is face down, because you have already resolved your critical effect... The Default one doesn't stand.

FOR THE SECOND QUESTION

Yes, a Face Up Damage card, is for all intents and purposes, a Damage Card. A Ship is destroyed when it has a number of Damage Cards equal to or exceeding its Hull Value... Up or Down doesn't matter.

Wow, thank you for a such a detailed & thoughtful answer. Much appreciated!

Just to clarify, the critical effect is always activated when I role a critical hit, but if the damage is only done to the shields, the effect is null in terms of damage to hit points. However, if the damage exceeds the remaining shield value, then the effect (for the first critical) is dealt faceup, damaging the hull. Did I get that right?

Just now, LongLivetheAlliance said:

Wow, thank you for a such a detailed & thoughtful answer. Much appreciated!

Just to clarify, the critical effect is always activated when I role a critical hit, but if the damage is only done to the shields, the effect is null in terms of damage to hit points. However, if the damage exceeds the remaining shield value, then the effect (for the first critical) is dealt faceup, damaging the hull. Did I get that right?

Essentialyl Correct. But you have to look at it, rather than a direct comparison of total value, to a comparison point by point .

The only effect that the Default Critical has, is, if you are damaging the hull (by hitting a hull zone with no shields remaining), then the first card will be face up , instead of down.

The other thing to remember is, of course, those damage points are dealt one point at a time... And the effect of the redirect token, is to allow the enemy to take that damage on an adjacent hull zone...

So if you did 6 damage to the ISD's nose, activate the default crit, and they have 4 shields on the nose... If they spent a Redirect, and sent at least 2 points of damage to the adjacent zone (either left or right, not both), then the hull is never damaged.

This is why the damage is dealt one point at a time...

Damage One - Front, Reduced from 4 to 3
Damage Two - Front, Reduced from 3 to 2
Damage Three - Front, Reduced from 2 to 1
Damage Four - Front, Reduced from 1 to 0
Damage Five - Redirected to Side, Reduced from 3 to 2
Damage Six - Redirected to Side, Reduced from 2 to 1.

So even though the Damage you dealt (6) outweighed the Shields of the Target Hull Zone (4), they were able to take that damage, individually, elsewhere, so they never actually took a point of damage on the Unshielded Zone. The Hull remains undamaged.

Keep in mind that you can use only one crit effect (unless you have Fire Control Team). Either the card, or the standard crit effect. With Dras' example, if you have assaupt concussion missiles equiped and the targeted hull zone has less shields than the total damage (and let's say it can't redirect either), you have to choose either to deal the extra damage on the adjacent hull zones but not to deal a faceup damage card (you still get a facedown for the crit!) or to deal a faceup card first but give up the extra hit on the adjacent hull zones.

I've been struggling to understand Criticals. I think I get it now, thanks to Drasnighta's explanation. So in the case of Assault a Proton Torpedoes...

http://starwars-armada.wikia.com/wiki/Assault_Proton_Torpedoes

Say the attacker rolled a single black die and gets a Hit/Crit face up. I then apply any defense tokens or abilities.

If after defense the die has not been canceled or re-rolled the Crit is still showing entering the damage step, immediately I'm given a face up card. (And if he is flying General Dodonna, he chooses the top card of the deck from the first four cards.) Then, damage is applied point by point. If that ship side had no shields, and Redirects are not used, then two more face down cards are dealt in addition to the Crit's face up card. Three damage cards are dealt in total, for a die with two hits on the face?

If instead, I'd used a Brace to reduce damage to 1 from the rolled 2, then Crit still takes effect and the face up card is given. And then point by point, the one point of damage goes into my hull (assuming zero shields and no redirects) and I get two cards total, one face up?

Finally, if I'd had a Scatter token, that is used before Critical effects are applied. The Hit/Crit is nullified and I'd take no face up card and no other damage?

This means: Standard critical doesn't affect total number of damage dealt. APT, like, ACM, does increase total damage dealt. But APT goes straight to the hull regardless of shields so long as the Crit stands after Defense?

step by step walk through is found here.... I have a couple of printed copys of the first post ... one for me & one for my opponent

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/181567-do-you-have-questions-about-attacking-defense-tokens-and-critical-hits-read-this-first/

42 minutes ago, ShoutingMan said:

I've been struggling to understand Criticals. I think I get it now, thanks to Drasnighta's explanation. So in the case of Assault a Proton Torpedoes...

http://starwars-armada.wikia.com/wiki/Assault_Proton_Torpedoes

Say the attacker rolled a single black die and gets a Hit/Crit face up. I then apply any defense tokens or abilities.

If after defense the die has not been canceled or re-rolled the Crit is still showing entering the damage step, immediately I'm given a face up card. (And if he is flying General Dodonna, he chooses the top card of the deck from the first four cards.) Then, damage is applied point by point. If that ship side had no shields, and Redirects are not used, then two more face down cards are dealt in addition to the Crit's face up card. Three damage cards are dealt in total, for a die with two hits on the face?

If instead, I'd used a Brace to reduce damage to 1 from the rolled 2, then Crit still takes effect and the face up card is given. And then point by point, the one point of damage goes into my hull (assuming zero shields and no redirects) and I get two cards total, one face up?

Finally, if I'd had a Scatter token, that is used before Critical effects are applied. The Hit/Crit is nullified and I'd take no face up card and no other damage?

This means: Standard critical doesn't affect total number of damage dealt. APT, like, ACM, does increase total damage dealt. But APT goes straight to the hull regardless of shields so long as the Crit stands after Defense?

Yes. You'll likely struggle a lot less if you simply follow the Attack procedure from the RRG one step at a time:

ATTACK
To perform an attack with a squadron or ship, resolve the following steps:
1 . Declare Target : The attacker declares the defender and the attacking hull zone, if any. If the defender is a ship, the attacker declares the defending hull zone. Measure line of sight to the defender to ensure the attack is possible and to determine if it is obstructed.
[...]
2 . Roll Attack Dice : Gather attack dice to form the attack pool and roll those dice. Gather only the dice that are appropriate for the range of the attack as indicated by the icons on the range ruler.
[...]
3 . Resolve Attack Effects : The attacker can resolve attack effects as described below:
[...]
4 . Spend Defense Tokens : The defender can spend one or more of its defense tokens.
5 . Resolve Damage : The attacker can resolve one of its critical effects. Then the attacker determines the total damage amount. Then the defending squadron or hull zone suffers that total damage, one point at a time.
[...]
◊◊ If the attacker and defender are ships, the damage is the sum of all Hit and Critical icons.
◊◊ Each ship has the following standard critical effect: “Critical icon: If the defender is dealt at least one damage card by this attack, deal the first damage card faceup.”

Let's do that for your example.

1. Declare Target : Your enemy's ship.
2. Roll Attack Dice : 1 black die, say you get a blank.
3. Resolve Attack Effects : You use Vader or OE to get a reroll, which changes the result to Hit+Crit.
4. Spend Defense Tokens : Your opponent chooses which token(s) to spend:
   • Scatter : discard all attack dice immediately; the attack is now over .
   • Evade : reroll or discard one die immediately depending on rangel; if no dice remain, the attack is now over .
   • Brace : later on, damage will be halved.
   • Redirect : later on, damage will be spread to an adjacent hull zone.
   • Contain : the standard critical effect cannot be resolved during this attack.
5. Resolve Damage :
   1. Resolve a critical effect: If you had at least one Crit icon, choose one available effect now. If you choose APT, deal a faceup damage card immediately . If you choose the standard critical effect, the first card dealt later will be faceup instead of facedown (unless a Contain token was spent) . Either way, continue resolving.
   2. Determine total damage: The sum of all Hit and Crit icons, i.e. 2 in this example. If a Brace token was spent, halve it (to 1) .
   3. Deal damage one point at a time: The defending hull zone (or an adjacent hull zone) loses 2 (or 1) shields. If it does not have shields left, excess damage is dealt as facedown damage card(s); if you chose the default critical effect (and Contain was not spent) the first of these is faceup instead.

So, if you roll a Hit+Crit with APT, and the defender uses a Brace and a Redirect, he will suffer:

1. A faceup damage card, and then
2. 1 point of damage, either to the defending zone or an adjacent zone.

49 minutes ago, ShoutingMan said:

This means: Standard critical doesn't affect total number of damage dealt. APT, like, ACM, does increase total damage dealt. But APT goes straight to the hull regardless of shields so long as the Crit stands after Defense?

Sort of. There's an ongoing discussion on the strict boundaries of the the term "damage", and especially the expression "to deal damage".

Ultimately, yes, with APT and ACM the total "hurt" inflicted to your ship is increased, whereas with the default crit it stays the same.

But the effect of APT is not to "deal damage", it simply delivers a faceup card. Note that the implications are important for various effects, e.g. Major Derlin , which would otherwise negate APT entirely. Attack damage is first calculated (including reductions from Brace and/or Derlin) at step 5.2, but by then APT has already resolved fully.

Thanks!

It's a case where we think we know the rules, and are now trying play faster and without constant reference to rules, but are now playing more complex fleets with more interactions, and start getting confused again. Plus I'd been reading discussion about rules, particularly with APT and Fire Control Center, which only confused me further.

But I'm again seeing the logic and philosophy of how Criticals fit the attack sequence.

1 minute ago, DiabloAzul said:

Sort of. There's an ongoing discussion on the strict boundaries of the the term "damage", and especially the expression "to deal damage".

Ultimately, yes, with APT and ACM the total "hurt" inflicted to your ship is increased, whereas with the default crit it stays the same.

But the effect of APT is not to "deal damage", it simply delivers a faceup card. Note that the implications are important for various effects, e.g. Major Derlin , which would otherwise negate APT entirely. Attack damage is first calculated (including reductions from Brace and/or Derlin) at step 5.2, but by then APT has already resolved fully.

To further clarify: damage is damage, cards are cards. ACM deals the former, APT deals the latter.

Damage can become cards under the right circumstances (i.e. no shields), but they are not the same thing.

1 minute ago, DiabloAzul said:

Sort of. There's an ongoing discussion on the strict boundaries of the the term "damage", and especially the expression "to deal damage".

Ultimately, yes, with APT and ACM the total "hurt" inflicted to your ship is increased, whereas with the default crit it stays the same.

But the effect of APT is not to "deal damage", it simply delivers a faceup card. Note that the implications are important for various effects, e.g. Major Derlin , which would otherwise negate APT entirely. Attack damage is first calculated (including reductions from Brace and/or Derlin) at step 5.2, but by then APT has already resolved fully.

Yeah, I was reading some of that discussion and it was getting me confused on the application of the effects during gameplay.

I understood Assault Concussion Missles. They apply two damage to adjacent hulls. Easy. For some reason, when criticals started dealing cards, and supplementary effects allow my opponent to look at my damage deck and select the card I'm getting face up. And then there's the critical effect that says to cancel all dice and just apply a Face Up card...it stop making sense to me. I think I'm back on track now.

2 minutes ago, ShoutingMan said:

It's a case where we think we know the rules, and are now trying play faster and without constant reference to rules, but are now playing more complex fleets with more interactions, and start getting confused again. Plus I'd been reading discussion about rules, particularly with APT and Fire Control Center, which only confused me further.

The APT+FCT ruling can be confusing. The thing to remember is that the default crit specifies that the first damage card dealt in the attack is faceup. And the APT card is dealt before resolving damage, so it's always going to be the first.

1 minute ago, DiabloAzul said:

To further clarify: damage is damage, cards are cards. ACM deals the former, APT deals the latter.

Damage can become cards under the right circumstances (i.e. no shields), but they are not the same thing.

What's confusing about these semantics is that they are "damage cards"

From the RRG:

Quote

When a ship has damage cards equal to its hull value, it is immediately destroyed

3 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

The APT+FCT ruling can be confusing. The thing to remember is that the default crit specifies that the first damage card dealt in the attack is faceup. And the APT card is dealt before resolving damage, so it's always going to be the first.

For now I take the clarification as is. When I was time I read the language in the email from FFG, their logic didn't seem to fit the logic otherwise applied to Criticals and to Damage. Your emphasis on the " first " card dealt might be the nuance I was missing. I'll have to revisit that matter later.

Just now, ShoutingMan said:

What's confusing about these semantics is that they are "damage cards"

From the RRG:

I know, it's a bit unfortunate. "Damage" is measured in points. Once applied, each point can cause the loss of one shield or the dealing of one "damage card". But a "damage card" is not "damage", it's one of the possible consequences of suffering it. In your example, your attack dealt 2 damage, and as an extra effect it dealt 1 faceup damage card. With ACM, your attack would have dealt 2 damage to the target zone and 1 to each adjacent zone, for a total of 4 damage (some of which may have transformed into cards).

A causes B, but B is not A.

Related question on order of attack:

Defender declares defense tokens before Attacker declares Critical Effects? So it's possible that a Contain token is spent futilely against a non-standard Critical?

But also the damage isn't counted and applied until after a Critical Effect is declared?

I don't know if these cause real predicaments but they are nuances that confuse my thinking about the game. I expect that damage would be applied. Then based on shield status, attacker would decide which Critical Effect is optimal. And based on that selection, Defender would decide how to use a Contain or related defense. But that seems to not be the case. There's some potential for missed opportunities, if attacker isn't able to count dice and shields mentally, or if Defender forgets his attacker has APT?

A while back I tried to put together a flow-chart for attacks , but there was just too much stuff going on to fit in much about how crits, damage and damage cards work. Armada has a lot of rules.

Defense tokens are declared and spent before crits are resolved - which is important for crits that affect defense tokens.

Quote

So it's possible that a Contain token is spent futilely against a non-standard Critical?

Yes. Or even in an attack where the attacker chooses not to resolve a crit at all, despite rolling one (the circumstances are pretty rare, but it can happen - I think I've had it happen once when against a ship with Medical Team ).

Quote

But also the damage isn't counted and applied until after a Critical Effect is declared?

This one is quite important as sometimes a crit effect can take out shields. Similarly the damage done by a crit (if it deals damage) is done before the regular damage is applied. A defender might find they've spent a Redirect Defense Token only for a crit (e.g. APT giving a Shield Failure or Projector Misaligned, or ACM) to knock out the shields they were planning to redirect to.

Further thought: If you are defending with the Devastator title you may even want to spend Defense Tokens knowing they will have no effect on the attack, because you want to burn them.

13 minutes ago, ShoutingMan said:

I don't know if these cause real predicaments but they are nuances that confuse my thinking about the game. I expect that damage would be applied. Then based on shield status, attacker would decide which Critical Effect is optimal. And based on that selection, Defender would decide how to use a Contain or related defense. But that seems to not be the case. There's some potential for missed opportunities, if attacker isn't able to count dice and shields mentally, or if Defender forgets his attacker has APT?

• Step 4: Spend defense tokens.
• Step 5.1: Resolve critical effects.
• Step 5.2: Determine damage.
• Step 5.3: Deal damage.

In that order. Always .

Yes, plenty of missed opportunities and "futile" choices possible.

Thanks again! This is very helpful!

hi just wondering if a critical effect goes un noticed by either player and is picked up on next turn can the player still claim the effect of the critical effect

7 hours ago, player3852954 said:

hi just wondering if a critical effect goes un noticed by either player and is picked up on next turn can the player still claim the effect of the critical effect

OK so an example. An ISD takes a crit saying "cant attack a ship more than once a turn" and then both players forget due to some intense complicated squadron interactions elsewhere on the board, or the arrival of beer & pizza....

Next turn the ISD double arcs a target and fires at an MC80 doing 7 damage braced to 4 and then 3 damage redirected to the rear. Neither player notices the ISD's crit and play continues.

A turn later the crit is spotted and the Imperial player must abide by the crit again, he cannot claim that as it wasn't noticed, once, it should no longer apply. The Imperial player should have noticed and shouldn't get any advantage from his mistake - and I think it is an Imperial mistake and the ISD owner cannot claim that it is the Rebel players fault for not flagging it up.

If the original illegal shot results can be remembered by the players they should do their best to rectify it. They could remove damage cards from the MC80 or put shields back or maybe restore a discarded defence token etc. The Imperial player should not then be allowed to go back a whole turn and take his second shot this time against some squadrons etc. To rectify the mistake you may have to do some serious "what if" analysis such as "the MC80 shouldn't have died and would have been able to shoot at that Arquitens". If this happens in a tournament rather than a friendly game then the Judge should definitely be present. It may be that the mistake was too serious and this makes "What If" impossible and therefore the judge will have to rule and probably award a win to the rebels. 8-3 or maybe 10-1.

1 hour ago, Mad Cat said:

It may be that the mistake was too serious and this makes "What If" impossible and therefore the judge will have to rule and proba  bly   award a win to the rebels      . 8-3 or  maybe 10-1.

I’m not sure I agree with this. Crits are open information. In a tournament you have an obligation to advocate for yourself, know the rules and pay keen attention to the board state. As the open information was declared but is now on the other side of the table, I would favor the Rebel player and make things right for them until it was time to put ships back on the board. That goes too far. This was ultimately a mistake made by both players, and handing out a win/loss is unfair imo.

Since it's the rules forum, the rules answer first: it's up to your opponent. In a tournament, this is specified by the Tournament Regulations; in a casual game, it's just good etiquette. You missed your opportunity to do a non-mandatory thing, so the only way to go get it back is through the largesse of your opponent.

Personally, as soon as either player has committed to a decision that might have been influenced by unknown information (in this case, any possible crit) , I think it's generally too late to expect take-backsies.

Now, lots of other factors will influence whether I as your opponent offer it to you or not--state of the board, how much time has passed, tourney vs casual setting, tone of the game, how much I like you, my mood. In casual games, I'll generally give my opponent a ton of leeway in missed opportunities barring unusual circumstances. In tournaments, I'm somewhat more strict, but generally will offer the missed opportunity if there's no major rewinding of the game required.

But I don't think your opponent is obligated to offer it under any circumstances.

Do we need crit reminder tokens to place on the ships à la X-wing? 😁