I keep seeing this list mentioned and then derided as bad and I am curious about why people feel that way. 5 Tie bombers with LWF and Unguided Rockets hits like a mack truck and is insanely tough. You are highly unlikely to drop a tie bomber before it fires. This is an insane amount of Pure joust power. the sheer fact that arc dodgers have been knocked out due to Dengar makes this list look more and more appealing. With the rockets granting a range three bonus because you lack the defensive extra die, and the Tie bombers ability to slow roll into another great shot makes this look like one of the best things to fly right now.

Never really looked at it myself, but its incredibly easy to kill a bomber before it gets to fire:

PS 2 Bomber will be rolling 3 (2+1 from LWF in most cases) defense dice with no mods due to needing to keep the focus token so that they can fire the rockets. At the very least you force the bomber-player to spend the focus token to keep the bomber alive, preventing it from firing the rockets. After that you only need to get behind them, as the turn that they have to K-turn means no rocket for them either. A bump would also prevent the use of the rocket, due to inability to focus.

Problem is if you force it to spend the focus, it has no guided rockets to fire.

6 hull, 2 + lwf agi is not tough at all and will drop fairly easily to most lists barring good luck

Unlike sf, you dont have the ps or badassery to duke it out

I actually do think it will be a solid squad if flown well and might have the longevity to simply outlast some lists. I think it should hold up to an alpha list well. You'll need at minimum 2 torps/missiles to take out a Bomber and that's with good dice. They will in turn still throw 12 dice at you. The Bomber does have a pretty restrictive dial and basically relies on the 5 k-turn to re-engage. They are pretty vulnerable then and will not have any tokens to fire rockets. Any kind of arc dodger is going to have a field day.

Unguided rockets are not good. 10pts worth of them doesn't change that. They are better* but being slightly better than a bad option or no option isn't the same as a good option.

I think you guys are missing the point. 6 hull with generally 3 dice defensively is insanely tough when paired with a 20 point cost. Expected damage output is less than 5 when you throw a fully modified plasma AND homing missile at a tie bomber. Even three plasma's from triple scouts is unlikely to kill a bomber (who will obviously spend the focus to live). So you dump your entire alpha strike and (maybe) take out one bomber. Leaving the other 4 to hammer into you with rockets. Range management is key with any joust list, so first round of combat They will be trying to aim for a range three engagement which heavily favors them.

Best answer against them

Stripping a focus off of 1 isn't the issue. You still have to deal with 4 more shooting rockets at you all of which were going to spend the focus on attack anyways.

SFs are 6HP with 2AGI + LWF, they tend to evaporate quite easily due to lack of an evade token. Only reason they tend to stick around at all is the aux arc shenanigans, if they attempt to joust they go poof usually.
Defenders were pretty easy to pop even at 3agi prior to the x7 title.

Dont bank on green dice to keep you alive, only expect high agility to chip off a couple points of damage at best. Yes its unlikely for you to suffer all 6 damage w/o ever dodging a single thing, but dodging more than 2 should not be expected (just greatly appreciated if it happens). The moment you go "I got 3 agility and a focus if i need it i'll be fine" is when you roll 3 blanks. Hell almost every time i roll MORE than 3 green dice and i think that i still get blasted pretty hard. The amount of scyks ive lost at range3 is baffling.... yes theyre 4hp instead of 6 but thats not the point - the point is i had 4+ agility and still took 4 damage (on many, many occasions)

Dont get me wrong, i love bombers. I dont see unguided being that awesome on them though.

The problem with these kinds of lists isn't the initial joust. It's the clean-up phase in the endgame. You can't really expect a non-maneuverable, non-turret, low PS, single-action, single-arc ship like this to win out against turrets and aces. If they don't completely obliterate half or more of the enemy forces in the opening joust, I'd expect the bombers to lose hard.

1 hour ago, Innese said:

Never really looked at it myself, but its incredibly easy to kill a bomber before it gets to fire:

PS 2 Bomber will be rolling 3 (2+1 from LWF in most cases) defense dice with no mods due to needing to keep the focus token so that they can fire the rockets. At the very least you force the bomber-player to spend the focus token to keep the bomber alive, preventing it from firing the rockets. After that you only need to get behind them, as the turn that they have to K-turn means no rocket for them either. A bump would also prevent the use of the rocket, due to inability to focus.

This. I really dont understand how people can think those rockets can save the bomber or the punisher. Basically unguided rockets are good on high PS ships, before they need to defend. Best candidate IMO is Thomax Bren with perma crack shot. The high PS pilot on the punicher cant even use his ability with them...

25 minutes ago, thestggrwng said:

I think you guys are missing the point. 6 hull with generally 3 dice defensively is insanely tough when paired with a 20 point cost. Expected damage output is less than 5 when you throw a fully modified plasma AND homing missile at a tie bomber. Even three plasma's from triple scouts is unlikely to kill a bomber (who will obviously spend the focus to live). So you dump your entire alpha strike and (maybe) take out one bomber. Leaving the other 4 to hammer into you with rockets. Range management is key with any joust list, so first round of combat They will be trying to aim for a range three engagement which heavily favors them.

3ish unmodified green dice are not great, they get worse when you paid 2 more points toward offense you can't use if you used the focus for defense.

WAY back in the day folks tried a few scimitars added in for the extra hp in a howl swarm. Mixed results. Pretty much the same here if you assume howl reroll and saving the focus for Defense 1/2 the time you'll get better offense and defense on a marginal frame with no end game outside of "outjoust then outfly".

1 minute ago, Rakky Wistol said:

3ish unmodified green dice are not great, they get worse when you paid 2 more points toward offense you can't use if you used the focus for defense.

WAY back in the day folks tried a few scimitars added in for the extra hp in a howl swarm. Mixed results. Pretty much the same here if you assume howl reroll and saving the focus for Defense 1/2 the time you'll get better offense and defense on a marginal frame with no end game outside of "outjoust then outfly".

My friend ran that tie bomber swarm with brutal results at worlds with one win being a modified kept him out of the cut. The bombers are tough by point cost. Stopping one rocket by making him spend his focus keeps the other 4 shooting and lwf is inherently tougher.

4 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

SFs are 6HP with 2AGI + LWF, they tend to evaporate quite easily due to lack of an evade token. Only reason they tend to stick around at all is the aux arc shenanigans, if they attempt to joust they go poof usually.
Defenders were pretty easy to pop even at 3agi prior to the x7 title.

Dont bank on green dice to keep you alive, only expect high agility to chip off a couple points of damage at best. Yes its unlikely for you to suffer all 6 damage w/o ever dodging a single thing, but dodging more than 2 should not be expected (just greatly appreciated if it happens). The moment you go "I got 3 agility and a focus if i need it i'll be fine" is when you roll 3 blanks. Hell almost every time i roll MORE than 3 green dice and i think that i still get blasted pretty hard. The amount of scyks ive lost at range3 is baffling.... yes theyre 4hp instead of 6 but thats not the point - the point is i had 4+ agility and still took 4 damage (on many, many occasions)

Yes, but how many points was that SF worth? half your list? a third? I'm talking that same agility which based on averages is unlikely to be killed before firing as a fifth of your list. Do the math. On average against 3 ships or less with a single shot or 2 ships with one having a double shot, you will be left alive. We have all had those games Where we blank out and a ship dies before it is supposed to. Four focused three die attacks with no range defensive bonus will do a lot of damage.

12 minutes ago, thestggrwng said:

My friend ran that tie bomber swarm with brutal results at worlds with one win being a modified kept him out of the cut. The bombers are tough by point cost. Stopping one rocket by making him spend his focus keeps the other 4 shooting and lwf is inherently tougher.

Not making the cut at Worlds isn't really anything special and kind of making my point for me. Unconventional lists that no one sees coming and haven't practiced against DO make the cuts at Worlds, and go much higher (see Kwing or Sable's bombers, or Jan+ Han...) when they're good.

No one is saying they aren't tough. Tough as what? Tie advanced with system of choice. 2+,3,2,3 and similar dial but access to the evade action sounds pretty similar at about the same cost without locked in actions and fully modified offense and defense. Would 5 tie advanced take the world by storm?

12 minutes ago, Rakky Wistol said:

Not making the cut at Worlds isn't really anything special and kind of making my point for me. Unconventional lists that no one sees coming and haven't practiced against DO make the cuts at Worlds, and go much higher (see Kwing or Sable's bombers, or Jan+ Han...) when they're good.

No one is saying they aren't tough. Tough as what? Tie advanced with system of choice. 2+,3,2,3 and similar dial but access to the evade action sounds pretty similar at about the same cost without locked in actions and fully modified offense and defense. Would 5 tie advanced take the world by storm?

Well again to point out, The tie bomber with light weight frame is cheaper, tougher and with rockets is harder hitting than any 20 point tempest you can build. So what is your point?

I am not saying a tie bomber on it's own with LWF and rockets is the hardest hitting ship out there and I am not saying it is the toughest. What I am saying is that at 20 points I can run 5 ships with a total of 30 hitpoints and 3 agility dice (mostly) per incoming shot. The bulk of the list will be throwing 3 die focused attacks every round (minus the K turn). This game runs on points efficiency. This is incredibly points efficient.

2pts cheaper than an ATC tempest and not harder hitting, same better than 2 dice attack but the tempest restriction isn't every round and not always shut off by kturn; not tougher, shield to Hull, 3 AG native and more likely to be modified, and evade action.

4 tempests and backstabber are about as cheap, just as tough, and have just as many "3 dice attacks".

They arent bound to the focus token either at a low PS.
And can turn better.

Unguided i feel will be great on the Punisher, specifically Deathrain since he wants bomb stuff anyway. 2pts for a slightly better attack assuming i didnt need my focus defensively on TOP of what i was already doing is fine to me, but when its my primary shenanigan i feel youre going to have the token stripped too often (or be forced to do a barrelroll/red move).

5 Tie bombers with guided rockets is not the answer. Their dial is crap and you will only have a focus like 30% of the time on them. The list Rush Hour has the right idea with 5 TIE shuttles with tactician and op spec.

Maybe one TIE Bomber with guided in a squad for 20pt filler if you want some beef more than a Tie fighter, but again, I would probably rather have like a naked Countdown or something if I need just a single ship.

EDIT. Now, take a Bomber with Cruise missiles in a howl runner squad. Take a TL with LRS, fire primary. Next round 5k. Fire a 5 attack cruise missile. Boom. 19pts

30 minutes ago, Rakky Wistol said:

2pts cheaper than an ATC tempest and not harder hitting, same better than 2 dice attack but the tempest restriction isn't every round and not always shut off by kturn; not tougher, shield to Hull, 3 AG native and more likely to be modified, and evade action.

4 tempests and backstabber are about as cheap, just as tough, and have just as many "3 dice attacks".

The main problem you are contending with here is that tempests have trouble getting target locks first engagement. You lose action efficiency when you kill one and your other ships lose their target locks. Rockets allow you to fire on whoever you want because all they require is a focus.

Against 2 agility, with just a target lock, your tempest has an expected damage of 1.27. A rocket with a focus? 1.58. So rockets are harder hitting. Shields are meaningless. Most crits won't affect you as a 2 ps generic ship anyways. The tempest has an evade. Why are you taking the evade action? Every swarm player knows to always take the focus rather than the evade. You take the evade when you are taking multiple actions a turn. Neither of these ships are so in essence, The tempest has no evade either. Tie bomber is blatantly tougher.

First off, lightweight rockets should cost zero to be any assistance to the TIE Bomber or Punisher. The need for a focus which is not as easy to insure the supply of, unlike in the Rebel or the Scum factions where there are easier ways to get them, makes it a meh; especially for low PS ships. They will be somewhat useful in Epic I'm betting, but not in 100/6 where the TIE Bomber and Punisher platforms and chassis are underwhelming in contrast to the other ship options in Rebels and Scum.

In a side note, the FFG designers threw a proverbial bone towards the worst bombing faction in the game with the Scrugg upgrade cards: Bomblet Generator and Minefield Mapper. However, these two work better in the Scugg than on the Punisher so it's a boost to the Imps without them gaining any competitive ground on the Scum. To boot, the Scum now have a great bombing platform and an "almost Sabine" in Cad Bane to boost their already better bombing performance. It's all to make money I'm betting; it's a bate and switch if you purchase the H-6 to assist in running Imperial ordinance in 100/6, a fools errand, so-to-speak. These bombing upgrade cards, like unguided rockets, may see use in Epic, but in my trials it looks as if bombing and ordinance is still something that the designers want Scum and Rebels to be far better at than the Empire.....which to those of us who cut our teeth on the original trilogy, seems at best odd, and at worst downright heartless.

Cruise Missiles might be something the Imperials may be able to use well on some Ace chassis however, well see when they hit the tables. If they are fun on Imperial chassis, it would seem that it was an FFG design oversight.

Yes, there is still a bit of salt on my fries...

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

First off, lightweight rockets should cost zero to be any assistance to the TIE Bomber or Punisher. The need for a focus which is not as easy to insure the supply of, unlike in the Rebel or the Scum factions where there are easier ways to get them, makes it a meh; especially for low PS ships. They will be somewhat useful in Epic I'm betting, but not in 100/6 where the TIE Bomber and Punisher platforms and chassis are underwhelming in contrast to the other ship options in Rebels and Scum.

In a side note, the FFG designers threw a proverbial bone towards the worst bombing faction in the game with the Scrugg upgrade cards: Bomblet Generator and Minefield Mapper. However, these two work better in the Scugg than on the Punisher so it's a boost to the Imps without them gaining any competitive ground on the Scum. To boot, the Scum now have a great bombing platform and an "almost Sabine" in Cad Bane to boost their already better bombing performance. It's all to make money I'm betting; it's a bate and switch if you purchase the H-6 to assist in running Imperial ordinance in 100/6, a fools errand, so-to-speak. These bombing upgrade cards, like unguided rockets, may see use in Epic, but in my trials it looks as if bombing and ordinance is still something that the designers want Scum and Rebels to be far better at than the Empire.....which to those of us who cut our teeth on the original trilogy, seems at best odd, and at worst downright heartless.

Cruise Missiles might be something the Imperials may be able to use well on some Ace chassis however, well see when they hit the tables. If they are fun on Imperial chassis, it would seem that it was an FFG design oversight.

Yes, there is still a bit of salt on my fries...

How is a focus hard to secure on a PS 2 ship? You move first. you can plan out your move to make sure you have a focus. It is a tie fighter with a 1 forward making it especially good at moving up and taking a focus and shooting you. It has the best K turn, the 5K. Giving it plenty of distance on the turn around and then can start slow rolling again pumping rockets into you. Did any of you play Tie Swarm?

I've been watching this list in league play dominate.

I think the list is going to be quite strong.

I have been running 5x mangler M3a's even before the +1 health fix (that buff was insane... ) and doing extremely well (winning kit tournaments) the list is feared locally as it should be (used to absolutely eat dengaroo for lunch).

The bomber list really brings more of the same, its downsides compared to the M3a list is you cant fire your 3 dice attack after k-turning, your movement dial is a little worse, spending your focus on d-fence costs you more offence, and less sweet sweet crits. However you gain 2 hit points per ship potentially increasing that first round staying power.

I do not know if its better then the 5x m3a mangler list but i am sure game to try.

I am going to go on the record now saying its a strong list, and one i plan to crush people with. This list, like the m3a list, will devastate 2 ship lists they simply do not have to total damage or hit points to compete against this. If this list is flown by a competent pilot it will wreck things.

People who say this is a bad list have no idea what they are talking about. Fear my bomber swarm.