I think the reason lightsaber spec trees often don't have an fr increase is that to get that skilled in combat takes your focus away from the force itself, which is why hermit, sage, seer and sort of ascetic are the ones that have a higher fr. I think there would be a way to accomplish what your saying but I think its a thread that when you pull on unravels a lot of how trees are structured.

I'm off the opinion that trees should be more specialized, smaller and cheaper, allowing for more unique characters, having a force tree that includes "fr dedications" would then work.

I'd like a tree that perhaps is only 3 rows wide and a cheaper ccostto buy including a lower cost for out of career specs.

1 hour ago, GandofGand said:

So I've been doing some thinking about Force Rating; one of by biggest gripes about this system is that Force users are extremely limited in what they can do with the Force by their Force Rating of 1,

First question I'd have is what is it that you want Force users to be able to do at FR1? Is the issue with avoiding using dark pips, which cuts down on success? Or just powering existing effects like Move?

I agree with you about Sense being a fundamental requirement, and your XP costs seem okay, if a bit inexpensive. It's just that FR2 is a big deal. If somebody takes the Enhance tree, there are a host of skills they can boost for very little XP, and they get 2 Force dice with each of those skill checks. This is a guaranteed +2 (successes and/or advantages) and possibly +4. Yes, some will be dark pips, but that's not much of a barrier. There are other powers that also let you enhance skills, so just with Force dice alone somebody can become quite effective even if they had 2s across the board.

The game does make it take a long time, but I consider that a feature, and FR1 is underrated. PCs with FR1 shouldn't be looking to move mountains. If you think about Luke, about all he had at the end of E4 was Sense, with the Commit for offensive upgrade generating a Triumph during the trench run. At the beginning of E5, presumably after a lot of other work for the rebellion, he had the basic Move power (and still rolled a dark pip). Later on in E5 he pretty much fills out the Enhance tree, all of which is very useful even with FR1. By E6 he has a single Move:Strength upgrade (floating C3P-0 above the Ewoks), and maybe FR2 at most. By the end of E6 he probably has FR2, all of Enhance, at least the left side of Sense, a few upgrades into Influence, and basic Move with a Strength upgrade. That's it, and yet the dude is an icon.

28 minutes ago, TheShard said:

I think the reason lightsaber spec trees often don't have an fr increase is that to get that skilled in combat takes your focus away from the force itself, which is why hermit, sage, seer and sort of ascetic are the ones that have a higher fr. I think there would be a way to accomplish what your saying but I think its a thread that when you pull on unravels a lot of how trees are structured.

I'm off the opinion that trees should be more specialized, smaller and cheaper, allowing for more unique characters, having a force tree that includes "fr dedications" would then work.

I'd like a tree that perhaps is only 3 rows wide and a cheaper ccostto buy including a lower cost for out of career specs.

I agree with the overall sentiment, but I'm not looking to make that massive of a change, just a simple, sensible and easy-to-implement option that doesn't require re-writing the entirety of the Trees.

Actually I'd rather do away with the trees entirely and let characters purchase Talents individually, just have prerequisites to Purchase each Talent...but thats another discussion.

7 minutes ago, whafrog said:

First question I'd have is what is it that you want Force users to be able to do at FR1? Is the issue with avoiding using dark pips, which cuts down on success? Or just powering existing effects like Move?

I agree with you about Sense being a fundamental requirement, and your XP costs seem okay, if a bit inexpensive. It's just that FR2 is a big deal. If somebody takes the Enhance tree, there are a host of skills they can boost for very little XP, and they get 2 Force dice with each of those skill checks. This is a guaranteed +2 (successes and/or advantages) and possibly +4. Yes, some will be dark pips, but that's not much of a barrier. There are other powers that also let you enhance skills, so just with Force dice alone somebody can become quite effective even if they had 2s across the board.

The game does make it take a long time, but I consider that a feature, and FR1 is underrated. PCs with FR1 shouldn't be looking to move mountains. If you think about Luke, about all he had at the end of E4 was Sense, with the Commit for offensive upgrade generating a Triumph during the trench run. At the beginning of E5, presumably after a lot of other work for the rebellion, he had the basic Move power (and still rolled a dark pip). Later on in E5 he pretty much fills out the Enhance tree, all of which is very useful even with FR1. By E6 he has a single Move:Strength upgrade (floating C3P-0 above the Ewoks), and maybe FR2 at most. By the end of E6 he probably has FR2, all of Enhance, at least the left side of Sense, a few upgrades into Influence, and basic Move with a Strength upgrade. That's it, and yet the dude is an icon.

I see the point here, my issue is that to get to the point where one can an Additional Force Point alone can occasionally require going through some talents that aren't appropriate to a character build.

Example; I'm playing a Chadra-fan Soresu Defender / Protector. Conceptually I don't want to her to have Medical Skills, but to get to the Force-Point bump I had to go through "Physician" and "Stimpack Specialist", neither of which I will ever likely use...so basically wasted XP and that's part of what I'm looking to avoid.

Yeah, that's the general problem with character classes, there's always something you have to pay for you don't really care about. I'm sure the other players have similar thoughts about their tree, I know mine did/do.

If your GM is okay with it, use OggDude's character generator to create a custom tree that swaps those out for other talents. Or maybe he'll let you jump straight to it with a 10XP surcharge. I think that would be a better solution than spending XP at chargen to get to FR2.

45 minutes ago, GandofGand said:

Example; I'm playing a Chadra-fan Soresu Defender / Protector. Conceptually I don't want to her to have Medical Skills, but to get to the Force-Point bump I had to go through "Physician" and "Stimpack Specialist", neither of which I will ever likely use...so basically wasted XP and that's part of what I'm looking to avoid.

You actually can bypass Physician and Stimpack Specialization. Right side of the tree, down.

Also, just as a side note, unless you never use stimpacks, Stimpack Specialization is a highly useful talent for anyone (not just for medics). It just gives you more oomph whenever you use a stimpack—doesn't have anything to do with the Medicine skill.

But yeah you don't have to "waste" any XP on those talent if you don't want to.

Going that route would cost an additional 55-60 Xp, granted ti would be to get a bunch of really useful talents...but still slower...

I doubt my GM will allow it but I'll have to take a look at Oggdude's didn't realize there was an option for that.

6 minutes ago, GandofGand said:

Going that route would cost an additional 55-60 Xp, granted ti would be to get a bunch of really useful talents...but still slower...

I doubt my GM will allow it but I'll have to take a look at Oggdude's didn't realize there was an option for that.

The total cost of beelining Force Rating is 75 XP, from Body Guard (5 XP) to Force Rating (25 XP). Going down the right side of the tree only adds 35 XP to the total cost—you would add Heightened Awareness (15 XP) and Grit (20 XP) to the total cost of beelining Force Rating, while bypassing Physician and Stimpack Spec (Body Guard doesn't get counted, since it's not in the path to FR +1). So that's 110 XP total to get FR +1.

But I have to ask—what drew you to choose Protector as a specialization, if you didn't want any Medical abilities and you also wanted a quick +1 bump to your Force Rating? Why not re-evaluate and ask your GM to allow you to respec, based on the fact that you don't want a PC with Medical abilities?

2 hours ago, GandofGand said:

So my thinking is this, treat Force Rating as an Attribute that starts at Rank Zero. If you want to be a Force-User of any kind You have to Spend 10 points to Buy Force at Rank 1 and another 10 to buy the First Rank of "Sense", After that you can spend Starting XP and ONLY starting XP to purchase it up to rank 2 (20 Xp). I'd recommend capping it at 2 for starting XP.

IMO, this gets into the same problem territory as the Skill Focus feat in Saga Edition; you have a suddenly very powerful Force user at "First Level." I played a character like that, and at level 1, I could roll a 2 on the d20 and still pull off a Force Power. And I had little trouble maxing out the effects of most Force Powers.

I can subscribe to spending 10 XP at starting to buy FR 1. But I wouldn't go as far as allowing you to get FR 2 with starting XP. That should remain in the realm of "truly experienced." You've learned at least a few talents, got an adventure or two under your belt, and you're ready to branch out.

Keep in mind that Sense is still one of the most useful powers at FR 1. Just commit that single Force Die, and you've basically got the Dodge talent, at no cost to activate, once per round. And you can invest more XP to make it better. 40 XP into the power, and you get to upgrade the difficulty of two attacks twice. That's worth the price of admission there, and should sustain you for the time that it takes you to get to FR 2 and then start to learn more Force powers.

26 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

The total cost of beelining Force Rating is 75 XP, from Body Guard (5 XP) to Force Rating (25 XP). Going down the right side of the tree only adds 35 XP to the total cost—you would add Heightened Awareness (15 XP) and Grit (20 XP) to the total cost of beelining Force Rating, while bypassing Physician and Stimpack Spec (Body Guard doesn't get counted, since it's not in the path to FR +1). So that's 110 XP total to get FR +1.

But I have to ask—what drew you to choose Protector as a specialization, if you didn't want any Medical abilities and you also wanted a quick +1 bump to your Force Rating? Why not re-evaluate and ask your GM to allow you to respec, based on the fact that you don't want a PC with Medical abilities?

I went with protector to couple it with Soresu Defender, which was her first Spec, and we already have a dedicated Medic in the party so its not needed and she's more about defending others. I will likely keep things the way they are for now until I talk to our GM, but I'll go with the flow for now.

12 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

IMO, this gets into the same problem territory as the Skill Focus feat in Saga Edition; you have a suddenly very powerful Force user at "First Level." I played a character like that, and at level 1, I could roll a 2 on the d20 and still pull off a Force Power. And I had little trouble maxing out the effects of most Force Powers.

I can subscribe to spending 10 XP at starting to buy FR 1. But I wouldn't go as far as allowing you to get FR 2 with starting XP. That should remain in the realm of "truly experienced." You've learned at least a few talents, got an adventure or two under your belt, and you're ready to branch out.

Keep in mind that Sense is still one of the most useful powers at FR 1. Just commit that single Force Die, and you've basically got the Dodge talent, at no cost to activate, once per round. And you can invest more XP to make it better. 40 XP into the power, and you get to upgrade the difficulty of two attacks twice. That's worth the price of admission there, and should sustain you for the time that it takes you to get to FR 2 and then start to learn more Force powers.

Yeah and that's where this idea breaks down a little...the early power bump, but the idea is that the cost would balance out in the long run. Downside is that a mixed game would see non Force-users left in the dust.

At one point I had been working on modifying D6 so there was a "Tech Power" rating much like they have in SWTOR and even came up with a list of all the Talents. If I hadn't been so lazy I might have actually finsihed converting th Talents over. I'm still tempted to convert the FFG Talent Trees to D6...but if I can't get players its not worth the effort...8P

23 minutes ago, GandofGand said:

Downside is that a mixed game would see non Force-users left in the dust.

Close of argument.

33 minutes ago, GandofGand said:

I went with protector to couple it with Soresu Defender, which was her first Spec, and we already have a dedicated Medic in the party so its not needed and she's more about defending others.

Alternatively...you could potentially give Skill/Unskilled Assistance to your Medic friend, making a combined Medicine check, and thereby allowing your party to benefit from your ranks in the Physician talent. If you're a Soresu Defender, you must have a decent Intellect rating. If it's higher than your Medic's rating, then you should be in business.

Maybe float that alternative to your GM if he doesn't allow a respec.

If he does allow you to ditch Protector for another specialization, there's so much you could do.

• In-career: Armorer, to augment your high Intellect and free species rank in Mechanics with an appropriate addition to your career skill list and tons of great Mechanics related talents, as well as talents that make you a further boss at defense (both with a lightsaber and with armor).
• Out of career, I'd say it depends on what your character is like. Morality, personality, skill ranks, perhaps even your role in the party. There are specs with very fast Force Ratings, and even some with multiple Force Ratings, if that's what you're after—growing your FR quickly, delving into the mysteries of the Force.

And we already have an Armorer in the party...Wookie to boot...lol. Not going to change careers again, we have a 3-game Mulligan rule for changes details on new characters. allows for minor tweaking.

As I said I'm likely to stick with the current build, maybe not not playing for another week and a half so I have time to look at options.

The intent of this post was to discuss the idea in general terms. I'm terrible at Maths so sometimes things don't make sense until I can see a point of view that clarifies things for me, hopefully it helps others look at things differently as I know there area lot of new and younger Gamers in the community who might not have had exposure to other game mechanics and possibilities. Plus discussing rules is entertaining...8)

You know, if you REALLY want to start at FR 2, it's not that hard, but you have to sacrifice a fair bit of starting XP. Make a Mystic/Seer, then drop 60 xp to race down to Force Rating. Unfortunately, that only leaves you with 60 XP (at best) for attributes and force powers.

Or, you can be a little more reasonable, grab a few talents, bump your core stats, grab a couple basic powers, and still have FR2 within 2 or 3 sessions. Suddenly, you can reliably use those power upgrades, and you become much more impressive.

As others have said, getting to Force Rating 2 is a significant increase in power for a Force user in this system.

While Awayputurwpn as covered the Saga Edition comparison, to use a D&D comparison being able to start at Force Rating 2 is in D&D terms akin to dropping a 5th level Wizard or Cleric into a party of 1st level non-caster characters. The Wizard/Cleric is going to have a whole host of options available to them that the rest of the PCs can't match.

Each increase in Force Rating is nearly a doubling in how powerful a Force user PC is; it'd be akin to allowing a normal PC to start off with up to 4 ranks in a skill at character creation for a pittance of an XP cost, which is effectively what is being suggested.

Being someone that's played a decent number of lightsaber users in this system, trust me when I say that not being able to easily get to Force Rating 2 is a fully intended design decision. If you'll note, many of the LS Form specs offer Improved Parry or Improved Reflect (Soresu Defender is unique in that it offers both), which gives the PC a very powerful defensive option that many of the specs have fairly easy means of triggering. The only exception is Niman Disciple, which has a Force Rating talent but no instances of Improved Parry/Reflect, which again is intentional as a balance mechanism seeing as how a great many characters that take a LS Form spec are going to almost inevitably be wielding lightsabers, which are pound-for-pound one of the most potent melee weapons in the game (hard to argue with Breach 1) in addition to having defensive talents that can greatly extend how long the PC lasts in combat, something other characters really don't have.

One big reason that FFG more than likely had in mind was that in each of the prior Star Wars RPGs, it was the Jedi characters with their lightsabers and mighty Force abilities that grossly unbalanced the game. And having played and GM'd Jedi characters in every official version of the Star Wars RPG as well as in a few different system hacks, I can speak from first hand experience that unless the player willingly restricts themselves, then its the Jedi that become the single most broken characters in the game, either at very low levels (Saga Edition) or a little ways down the road (WEG).

Now, that being said, if you're really brassed off that your saber-monkey can't easily become a Force wizard in addition to wielding an ever-glowin' beatstick o' doom, then one simple house rule suggestion you can bring to your GM is to allow him to swap out the Dedication talent from Soresu Defender for the Force Rating talent. It seems to be a roughly fair trade, as the Sage, Seer, and Hermit (Savage Spirits) specs all dropped Dedication in favor of a second Force Rating talent.