4 minutes ago, StevenO said:

So there are no expectations when playing the game? I'll also point out that I am NOT the one who brought up the idea that there should be expectation and while you could waste time discussing what those could be between every game you play it's a lot easier to just to have them.

FFG writing new rules? Seems to me they do that quite a bit these days. You know what, putting a little piece in the tournament rule and FAQ about expecting phone use and other action the opponent could consider distracting to a minimum probably SHOULD be in the rules. You know, it some ways it already is in the rules under Unsporting Conduct as many could see you spending all that time of your phone as being disrespectful; it may be a somewhat grey area in the rules but if your opponent considers your phone a distraction then it is in there. "But my OPPONENT is disrespecting me by not letting me use my phone!!!!" If anyone ever tried using that the TO should agree and say that the phone use is more important and give the player a game loss since clearly the phone use is more important than the game.

I've never been against a player having access to his or her phone during a game but you can quickly get to a point where that phone is a detriment to the game. Use can then go far beyond being detrimental to a point where the game isn't even being played anymore. If you want to set expectation how would you draw a line somewhere "in the middle" because even I'd agree that you really don't want either extreme to be absolute; the thing is that backing off from one end of the absolute is far easier than cutting down on the other other end.

You'd NEVER accept someone trying to regulate your use of your phone when playing a game? I feel so sorry for you and all of the wonderful things you must miss out on. I guess team sports like football, soccer, baseball, and basketball are things you should never consider participating in outside of fantasy. I'm not sure how well Chess would do if/when people could continually consult their phones during matches. Poker would be a GREAT game to play when you can use your phone to help you with the odds and to get updates from your spies that have been sitting behind your opponents. I supposed you also need to have your phone on hand all the time when engaging in intimate relationships. You probably can't survive an hour without oxygen but you certainly should be able to survive an hour or so without your phone; people did it for thousands of years so it shouldn't kill you either.

I suppose I should clarify, expectations are, of course, inevitable in human interaction. If you expect something there is nothing inherently wrong with that in my opinion, as long as you understand that these are personal feelings that you have! Unless the people you interact with know of these expectations and welcome adhering to them you SHOULDN'T be surprised or upset when sometimes someone won't conform to them! That's all, just the knowledge that different people value something differently! All you can do(imo) is let someone know when their behaviors are leeching your enjoyment of the game, and don't take for granted that they could disagree with you.

Also, when I said game I specifically meant a board/table top/video game in a non-professional setting. Obviously professionally organized sport(including things like video games and gambling) is going to have regulations... But I am rather confident when I say that X-Wing Miniatures game is not on the same level as professional chess or baseball. It isn't our job to play this game, we don't earn a salary or real prize pot for tournaments we chose to go to. It is the definition of casual! Assuming everyone is out to cheat is paranoia, imo.

Finally, and this is the only part of either of these posts that I am not voicing an opinion on but am speaking absolutely, the tone and content of your last paragraph is incredibly rude and uncalled for and I will not stand for it. At no point have I attacked your character or been mocking toward you and if you cannot adhere to this bare minimum of etiquette when conversing with a stranger you should step back from a conversation. You have no knowledge of my phone habits, don't pretend that you do in a vain attempt to shame me for not meeting your personal standards.

57 minutes ago, StevenO said:

So there are no expectations when playing the game?

Not universal ones outside the rules. If it bothers you, say something beforehand is all I'm saying. I'm not saying you've no reason to be bothered. I'm not defending people wasting time on their phones. I'm saying you have no right to be upset when playing a casual game of anything if your expectations of mutual respect aren't met and you never said a word about them. Expecting people to have the same values/expectations as you is disrespectful whether that manifests in someone using their phone while they play or you not telling them that goes against your expectations and getting upset about it. It is the exact same kind of disrespect being shown. Both parties are assuming the opposite party must share their views without ever having a conversation about them. It's ridiculous.

Tournament play is a different thing altogether. There are floor rules governing the universal expectations to be upheld by all players and event staff. If your opponent is doing something outside your personal expectations that is not covered in the floor rules in a competitive setting you have no right whatever to be upset by it.

11 minutes ago, codegnave said:

I suppose I should clarify, expectations are, of course, inevitable in human interaction. If you expect something there is nothing inherently wrong with that in my opinion, as long as you understand that these are personal feelings that you have! Unless the people you interact with know of these expectations and welcome adhering to them you SHOULDN'T be surprised or upset when sometimes someone won't conform to them! That's all, just the knowledge that different people value something differently! All you can do(imo) is let someone know when their behaviors are leeching your enjoyment of the game, and don't take for granted that they could disagree with you.

Also, when I said game I specifically meant a board/table top/video game in a non-professional setting. Obviously professionally organized sport(including things like video games and gambling) is going to have regulations... But I am rather confident when I say that X-Wing Miniatures game is not on the same level as professional chess or baseball. It isn't our job to play this game, we don't earn a salary or real prize pot for tournaments we chose to go to. It is the definition of casual! Assuming everyone is out to cheat is paranoia, imo.

Finally, and this is the only part of either of these posts that I am not voicing an opinion on but am speaking absolutely, the tone and content of your last paragraph is incredibly rude and uncalled for and I will not stand for it. At no point have I attacked your character or been mocking toward you and if you cannot adhere to this bare minimum of etiquette when conversing with a stranger you should step back from a conversation. You have no knowledge of my phone habits, don't pretend that you do in a vain attempt to shame me for not meeting your personal standards.

Expectation are what they are. Now if phone use is an issue, which I generally do think it IS NOT, then FFG certainly should put something in the rules to set those expectation. If we meet to play X-Wing I expect to play X-Wing. If we were to play a "pickup" game then certainly my expectation would be less but in such a setting is a discussion like this even worth having?

It may be what you meant but it isn't what you said. If you're in a completely casual environment then what do rules matter except between friends. As you move into any structured playing you've moved into the realm where those things are important and become more so. If there are prizes of any kind at stake then things matter. Maybe X-Wing isn't played for large sums of money but it seems to me neither have many other games which have developed into high $$$ competitions.

As for my last paragraph the first five lines tie directly into saying that you wouldn't play games if they would restrict your phone use. Now that you've backed off of that "never" they wouldn't apply to you nearly as much and that would also apply to the last statements as well. However, while one line may be inappropriate I do believe they are accurate to the type of person who really can't see any reason why there should be limitations put their use of mobile devices when performing other activities and I afraid those people do exist. I'll also say that while I may have quoted you my comments are not solely directed at you.

Perhaps I have blinders on but shouldn't the goal of playing the game be to play the game without needing to let in outside distractions such as cell phones? While that may be the goal pretty much everyone will agree that there will be some level of phone use. The disputes come from what that "acceptable level" is going to be. My issue has always been with those who appear to believe that the level should be however much you want to use your device regardless of the NPE that it may have on your opponent; in a truly casual setting that is what causes someone to walk away but if the results matter at all then you've got problems which should be part of the game's basic structure.

the only advantage or point of miniature games over video games is that everything is really there, including the players. if you dont have enough respect for your opponent to devote an hour of your time, dont play.

3 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

if you dont have enough respect for your opponent to devote an hour of your time, dont play.

If you don't have enough respect for your opponent to tell them your expectations, don't get offended when they don't meet them. ?

3 hours ago, wfain said:

6 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

if you dont have enough respect for your opponent to devote an hour of your time, dont play.

If you don't have enough respect for your opponent to tell them your expectations, don't get offended when they don't meet them. ?

So do we have to include this big discussion on what our expectation are before we ever begin playing? Let's just say that you start the game with the phone somewhere in an inactive state; guess what you're meeting my expectation without my needing to point them out to you. So at what point do I tell you my expectation which you appear to be meeting since you haven't been on the phone from the very beginning of the game? Is it the first time it makes a peep or I end up waiting for you, no matter how briefly, because the game doesn't have your undivided attention. Or is it after I've listened to you go one for a minute or two about something that almost certainly isn't critical (otherwise you should be on your way out the door already). Besides all of this explained expectation what happen when your expectations clearly don't seem to mesh with mine? If we must play for whatever reason and my expectation is a bare minimum of phone use and your expectation is to have it in your hand using it the entire game whose "expectations" do we follow; maybe my attentiveness to the game is distracting you from your phone so we should continue to allow unfettered phone use but that doesn't seem so likely; of course being told to put your phone down and away is likely to offend you at which point I'm now the "bad guy" for hurting your feeling or something like that.

So I'll ask again, just when and how often must we discuss these expectation and just how are things resolved when there is a dispute. Considering this thread is now four pages in it seems to me like a lot of time could be wasted trying to resolve those issues especially if they need to be done before every game.

Also did people forget about this?

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/star-wars-dice-app/

10 hours ago, StevenO said:

So do we have to include this big discussion on what our expectation are before we ever begin playing?

is pretty simple- if they start doing something that doesn't line up with your expectation you... politely inform them and ask that they adjust their behavior. If they do not, now you have reason to be annoyed. This whole thing is very simple- just talk to each other without getting needlessly riled up.

6 minutes ago, wfain said:

is pretty simple- if they start doing something that doesn't line up with your expectation you... politely inform them and ask that they adjust their behavior. If they do not, now you have reason to be annoyed. This whole thing is very simple- just talk to each other without getting needlessly riled up.

So, you are driving a car within which I am a passenger. Going in, I have an unstated, reasonable expectation that you are going to abide by all rules of the road, laws of the land, etc.

You decide to drive off of a cliff.

I am suppose to "just talk to you (each other) without getting needlessly riled up".

You live in an interesting fantasy land. I wish I had the time to visit. Sounds fun.

34 minutes ago, any2cards said:

So, you are driving a car within which I am a passenger. Going in, I have an unstated, reasonable expectation that you are going to abide by all rules of the road, laws of the land, etc.

You decide to drive off of a cliff.

I am suppose to "just talk to you (each other) without getting needlessly riled up".

You live in an interesting fantasy land. I wish I had the time to visit. Sounds fun.

How's hyperbole land treating you?

Not looking at your phone during a game of X wing is hardly even in the same league as driving off a cliff...

And to address your point, there are rules (read: laws) regarding the driving of cars safely and without endangering people. There is no such rule dictating that phones must not be used during an X wing match. Especially if they're only briefly used during phases in which the person using the phone is doing nothing (i.e. after they've set their dials & before their opponent has).

37 minutes ago, any2cards said:

So, you are driving a car within which I am a passenger. Going in, I have an unstated, reasonable expectation that you are going to abide by all rules of the road, laws of the land, etc.

You decide to drive off of a cliff.

I am suppose to "just talk to you (each other) without getting needlessly riled up".

You live in an interesting fantasy land. I wish I had the time to visit. Sounds fun.

We're talking about using the phone at the table, not hopping the table to maul your opponent, you hyperbolic old coot.

How can the suggestion that you speak civilly to your opponent if they're doing something that bothers you to address the issue rather than stew in self-righteous rage be getting this much pushback? Seriously, enlighten me, I am fascinated. The old guard of stodgy "if I see a phone at the table its 12 paces with pistols in front of the FLGS" are the ones who are arguing that the game has a social aspect, and yet they have this primal fear of mentioning something that bothers them to their opponent. I sincerely don't get it.

Also, ninja'd. @ThalanirIII

Just now, E Chu Ta said:

How can the suggestion that you speak civilly to your opponent if they're doing something that bothers you to address the issue rather than stew in self-righteous rage be getting this much pushback? Seriously, enlighten me, I am fascinated. The old guard of stodgy "if I see a phone at the table its 12 paces with pistols in front of the FLGS" are the ones who are arguing that the game has a social aspect, and yet they have this primal fear of mentioning something that bothers them to their opponent. I sincerely don't get it.

Also, ninja'd. @ThalanirIII

41 minutes ago, ThalanirIII said:

1 hour ago, any2cards said:

So, you are driving a car within which I am a passenger. Going in, I have an unstated, reasonable expectation that you are going to abide by all rules of the road, laws of the land, etc.

You decide to drive off of a cliff.

I am suppose to "just talk to you (each other) without getting needlessly riled up".

You live in an interesting fantasy land. I wish I had the time to visit. Sounds fun.

How's hyperbole land treating you?

Not looking at your phone during a game of X wing is hardly even in the same league as driving off a cliff...

And to address your point, there are rules (read: laws) regarding the driving of cars safely and without endangering people. There is no such rule dictating that phones must not be used during an X wing match. Especially if they're only briefly used during phases in which the person using the phone is doing nothing (i.e. after they've set their dials & before their opponent has).

It may be hyperbole but there is a point to it especially if you say you just need to "speak up" when your expectations are no longer being met. Here it appears you may be having expectations met until suddenly they no longer are but at that point there isn't a darn thing you can do about it and now you're forced into dealing with something you never wanted to deal with in the first place.

Perhaps you volunteer to give me a ride using your car. Now maybe I not going to expect a rolls but I probably would expect your car to be in as good shape as mine is. Now what expectations do we need to talk about before we start? What about your terrible driving I wasn't aware or your outstanding warrant that gets you hauled away when an officer pulls us over for a traffic violation or some other minor offense? How about when you suddenly find your car low on fuel?

2 minutes ago, StevenO said:

It may be hyperbole but there is a point to it especially if you say you just need to "speak up" when your expectations are no longer being met. Here it appears you may be having expectations met until suddenly they no longer are but at that point there isn't a darn thing you can do about it and now you're forced into dealing with something you never wanted to deal with in the first place.

Perhaps you volunteer to give me a ride using your car. Now maybe I not going to expect a rolls but I probably would expect your car to be in as good shape as mine is. Now what expectations do we need to talk about before we start? What about your terrible driving I wasn't aware or your outstanding warrant that gets you hauled away when an officer pulls us over for a traffic violation or some other minor offense? How about when you suddenly find your car low on fuel?

If someone volunteers, you have to accept for that agreement to actually work.

Why would you assume someone who offers you a lift would have a better car than you? I've taken a fair few lifts from people, in **** cars and nice cars. But I don't expect them to have a better car than I do.

If they drive terribly, you say "hey be careful", sit it out then never get a ride with them or ask to get out of the car. Again, you're being offered a lift - you accepted, and that's on you.

If they get arrested, you say "sorry officer, they offered to give me a lift to ___, they should be able to confirm this if you ask them". Unless it's because they're driving under the influence then you're at fault too.

If their car is low on fuel, you make a stop at the petrol station. Why would you care that you stop there if you're getting a lift?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I fail to see how any of these examples (which still reside in hyperbole land, by the way) actually show a parallel with someone using their phone during a non-intrusive point of the game where they'd otherwise just be standing or sitting there. Not only that, but all of your examples can be answered by... speaking up if your expectations are not met!

1 hour ago, any2cards said:

So, you are driving a car within which I am a passenger. Going in, I have an unstated, reasonable expectation that you are going to abide by all rules of the road, laws of the land, etc.

You decide to drive off of a cliff.

I am suppose to "just talk to you (each other) without getting needlessly riled up".

You live in an interesting fantasy land. I wish I had the time to visit. Sounds fun.

This scenario is completely invalid. There are universal expectations which govern the rules of the road. There are no such expectations which govern how, when, how often, and for what reason a person might use a phone during a casual game of plastic spaceships. This is so not difficult and it is attitudes like this that negatively impact the community as a whole and keep it a hobby predominated by 15-45 yo white males. Get a grip, learn to communicate, and stop taking everything as a personal affront. It is an unbelievable joke.

11 minutes ago, ThalanirIII said:

I fail to see how any of these examples (which still reside in hyperbole land, by the way) actually show a parallel with someone using their phone during a non-intrusive point of the game where they'd otherwise just be standing or sitting there. Not only that, but all of your examples can be answered by... speaking up if your expectations are not met!

Ok, how about your driver just starts using his phone while driving. Sure it's becoming illegal in many states but a lot of studies are showing it's as dangerous as drinking and driving.

Has anyone else tried "overnight oats"? I need some flavor inspirations... My first attempt with milk and a splash of cold brew were akin to something I'd imagine we'll eat in the end-of-days.

Anyone have recommendations to light my soggy-oats-world on fire?

52 minutes ago, StevenO said:

Ok, how about your driver just starts using his phone while driving. Sure it's becoming illegal in many states but a lot of studies are showing it's as dangerous as drinking and driving.

ask them politely to stop doing it! If they don't, stop riding with them.

I think this is more or less where I sit on the phones out debate;

If It's casual play then phones are fine, as long as they don't hold up the game. If you get your dials done quicker than me and want to have a quick bash on the phone then go for it. If you want to take pictures during the game, go for it. Just don't hold the game up too much... if I'm waiting around for 5 minutes each time for you to get off the thing I can guarantee that we won't be playing very many more casual games.

If we're playtesting then I'd expect you to keep your head in the game. As much as you may protest to the contrary; if you're on that thing then you're not giving your full attention to the game, and you're not going to provide me with the same quality of practice as you would if you were giving the game your full attention.

I don't mind the use of the phone for the purposes of the game here, but non x-wing related phone use should be a no-no.

For a tournament I'd expect the phone to remain untouched at all times unless you're running the dice app on there or something. If you're expecting to photograph or otherwise record the game you will have agreed that with me beforehand.

And I should point out: obvious exception for important RL stuff: if you get a call and It's something important that's a different matter & trumps plastic spaceships quite easily.

3 hours ago, StevenO said:

Ok, how about your driver just starts using his phone while driving. Sure it's becoming illegal in many states but a lot of studies are showing it's as dangerous as drinking and driving.

because it presents an actual danger while driving

what the **** kind of danger is your opponent presenting while on the phone during a game of x-wing?

Seriously, these analogies are basically non-sequiturs

here's the bottom line: different people are different and have differing standards and "expectations." If there's some kind of sore rub, work the blessing that is the human language and communicate it so you're at least on the same page.

Grumpy Old Dude Comment: You realize we survived just fine for years without cell phones in our pockets, right? It is possible.

Scenario: You're on a date. Sitting down in a restaurant. You start to look at your menu. Your date, seeing that you're occupied (and having already set her dials made her dinner selection) decides to pull out her phone and start texting with someone else. How do you feel?

In my opinion, it's not that much different. Two people, sitting across from each other in a social situation. Should I be expected to tell my date that I would prefer she not get on her phone? Isn't it a reasonable expectation?

Let's do an Internet search for "Cell Phone Etiquette." What does Emily Post have to say?

http://emilypost.com/advice/top-ten-cell-phone-manners/ (emphasis mine)

1. Quote

   1. Be in control of your phone, don’t let it control you!
   2. Speak softly.
   3. Be courteous to those you are with; turn off your phone if it will be interrupting a conversation or activity.
   4. Watch your language, especially when others can overhear you.
   5. Avoid talking about personal or confidential topics in a public place.
   6. If it must be on and it could bother others, use the “silent” mode and move away to talk.
   7. Don’t make calls in a library, theater, church, or from your table in a restaurant.
   8. Don’t text during class or a meeting at your job.
   9. Private info can be forwarded, so don’t text it.
   10. NEVER drive and use your phone at the same time.

NY Daily News article

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/good-mobile-manners-article-1.1406873

Quote

Do respect those who are with you. When you're engaged face-to-face with others, either in a meeting or a conversation, give them your complete and undivided attention. Avoid texting or taking calls. If a call is important, apologize and ask permission before accepting it.

People earlier in this topic suggest that I not impose my expectations of "respect" on the person across the table from me. I thought that if you search most anywhere, you're going to find my expectations are considered polite and normal. So then I did a search for "what do millennials consider good cell phone etiquette" or words to that effect and found this study:

http://genhq.com/what-the-youngest-generation-thinks-is-bad-phone-etiquette/

Quote

Work-related phone use aside, iGen, at a higher rate than any other generation, said that it was more acceptable to use their phone in any manner. Some of the most shocking results included:

• Riding a bike
• Running on a treadmill
• During a religious service
• When meeting your significant other’s parents for the first time
• During a job interview
• During your own wedding ceremony (!)

So there you have it. Go ahead and use your phone during a job interview, and during your own wedding ceremony. And, of course, during an X-Wing match. Doesn't bother me, because its' what all the cool kids are doing...

see, comparing a game of x-wing to a date, a job interview or a wedding ceremony already shows a very stark difference in expectation

It's not that different. It's a social encounter.

Yes, expectations are different for a job interview and a wedding. And by the way, that's not my comparison, it's a quote from an article that suggests that younger folks are much more comfortable using their phone in situations that older folks would find unfathomable.

32 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

see, comparing a game of x-wing to a date, a job interview or a wedding ceremony already shows a very stark difference in expectation

Better tuck that shirt in, man. Totally a slobbish of you to play X-Wing like that.