20 hours ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

"Adding the most flavor relevant faction as a regular playable faction, like it was for the entirety of the previous game short the first year, would destroy all flavor integrity the game has."

At its heart, L5R has always been about rival samurai clans. Nothing about that automatically assumes giant demonspawn, undead ghuls, etc. While those things certainly exist in the setting, describing them as the most flavor relevant faction is somewhat an exaggeration.

1 hour ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

At its heart, L5R has always been about rival samurai clans. Nothing about that automatically assumes giant demonspawn, undead ghuls, etc. While those things certainly exist in the setting, describing them as the most flavor relevant faction is somewhat an exaggeration.

I would argue no. I would say the rival samurai clans and their fights for power is default, its just the nature of Rokugan, but clans and families infighting is something that is everywhere in the fantasy genre. The Shadowlands is pivotal to the flavor of the setting, without it Rokugan just wouldn't be rokugan.

The first story was the clan war, beginning with the scorpion coup, driven by the revelations of the day of thunder. From the black scrolls to the march of Kisada the shadowlands have always been immersed into the heart of Rokugan's flavor as a setting.

Sure the clans bickering is always an aspect of the setting, but 90% of the time it was background conflicts as the flavor and conflicts of the narrative came from the villainous shadowlands. The shadowlands always has had significant plot relevance in the CCG, it was one of the most popular factions that gave clans like Crab, Phoenix, and Scorpion very real reasons to be relevant in the empire.

I would argue that no single clan can claim to be more relevant to the nature and foundations of Rokugan as a setting then the shadowlands, except maybe the crane but even then its not like the other clans just wouldn't have samurai without them. Its shadowlands' opposition to Rokugan that has fundamentally shaped the way Rokugan functions and works.

If you just plucked out any clan and removed them, rokugan would be slightly different, but it would still be rokugan. Clans would easily fill in the gaps because the clans do have these overlaps that exist. No single clan really gives rokugan its flavor, no clan is TOO important to the setting that couldn't have other clans pick up their slack.

However, if you removed the shadowlands... man rokugan changes entirely. The entire nature of the empire would have evolved differently without the ever present thread of annihilation and corruption because the empire was built upon that nature.

Granted I'm not here trying to say that Clans and their conflicts aren't great, they are really fundamental to defining and giving them their own meanings, are fun to read and give everyone that sports team like fanfare that is so enjoyed by the community, but if we are looking for the most FLAVOR relevant faction, the one that defines the setting the most heavily, it would simply be the shadowlands in my book.

16 minutes ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

I would argue no. I would say the rival samurai clans and their fights for power is default, its just the nature of Rokugan, but clans and families infighting is something that is everywhere in the fantasy genre. The Shadowlands is pivotal to the flavor of the setting, without it Rokugan just wouldn't be rokugan.

The first story was the clan war, beginning with the scorpion coup, driven by the revelations of the day of thunder. From the black scrolls to the march of Kisada the shadowlands have always been immersed into the heart of Rokugan's flavor as a setting.

Sure the clans bickering is always an aspect of the setting, but 90% of the time it was background conflicts as the flavor and conflicts of the narrative came from the villainous shadowlands. The shadowlands always has had significant plot relevance in the CCG, it was one of the most popular factions that gave clans like Crab, Phoenix, and Scorpion very real reasons to be relevant in the empire.

I would argue that no single clan can claim to be more relevant to the nature and foundations of Rokugan as a setting then the shadowlands, except maybe the crane but even then its not like the other clans just wouldn't have samurai without them. Its shadowlands' opposition to Rokugan that has fundamentally shaped the way Rokugan functions and works.

If you just plucked out any clan and removed them, rokugan would be slightly different, but it would still be rokugan. Clans would easily fill in the gaps because the clans do have these overlaps that exist. No single clan really gives rokugan its flavor, no clan is TOO important to the setting that couldn't have other clans pick up their slack.

However, if you removed the shadowlands... man rokugan changes entirely. The entire nature of the empire would have evolved differently without the ever present thread of annihilation and corruption because the empire was built upon that nature.

Granted I'm not here trying to say that Clans and their conflicts aren't great, they are really fundamental to defining and giving them their own meanings, are fun to read and give everyone that sports team like fanfare that is so enjoyed by the community, but if we are looking for the most FLAVOR relevant faction, the one that defines the setting the most heavily, it would simply be the shadowlands in my book.

I'd argue the flavor that defines Rokugan the most is the Samurai and the east Asian aesthetic.

Shadowlands and it's concept is pretty standard fantasy fare. I mean GoT has their own Shadowlands and it's own wall. LoTR has it's corrupted characters and villainous hordes. It isn't anything that is so intrinsically unique to Rokugan.

To me, it isn't what makes Rokugan special, and if it was entirely excised while I'd agree that Rokugan would be a very different place, I can't really agree it wouldn't be Rokugan to me.

5 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

I'd argue the flavor that defines Rokugan the most is the Samurai and the east Asian aesthetic.

Shadowlands and it's concept is pretty standard fantasy fare. I mean GoT has their own Shadowlands and it's own wall. LoTR has it's corrupted characters and villainous hordes. It isn't anything that is so intrinsically unique to Rokugan.

To me, it isn't what makes Rokugan special, and if it was entirely excised while I'd agree that Rokugan would be a very different place, I can't really agree it wouldn't be Rokugan to me.

I could understand that, and I certainly think the Asian Aesthetic IS very favorable. I most often explain L5R as "Game of Thrones in magical japan" afterall. It is such a broad brush stroke, but it is important, I'll concede that certainly.

However I guess I would say that the shadowlands gives flavor by cementing that feel. Oni, mask wearing zombies, maho tsuchi all really cement the setting as much as any samurai armored warrior would as markedly different from other similar settings. In the details I feel like it seeps out.

The Shadowlands is a catalyst that causes a lot of events to happen, but it's not the flavor of the setting. The specific nature and feeling of the Shadowlands isn't as important as the simple fact that there's a large, evil force out there.

Now don't misunderstand me; I like much about the Shadowlands. However, it can be changed quite a bit without doing violence to the setting.

6 minutes ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

I could understand that, and I certainly think the Asian Aesthetic IS very favorable. I most often explain L5R as "Game of Thrones in magical japan" afterall. It is such a broad brush stroke, but it is important, I'll concede that certainly.

However I guess I would say that the shadowlands gives flavor by cementing that feel. Oni, mask wearing zombies, maho tsuchi all really cement the setting as much as any samurai armored warrior would as markedly different from other similar settings. In the details I feel like it seeps out.

I can understand you're point of view, but shadowlands isn't that unique to me. It doesn't feel any different than any other fantasy setting just with it's demonic hoard Asian themed. Which is why the Asian theme is what matters most to the flavor, for me.

I think the Shadowlands backstory is pretty important in the context of flavor. If you look at it as just 'evil stuff out there that comes to kill you' then yeah it is pretty interchangeable with anything else. But through the lens of the Kami Fu Leng falling from heaven, creating the festering pit, the corruption of the shadowlands through Jigoku, and the taint, I think that the story and flavor of the shadowlands is pretty important to L5R as whole. Maybe not the defining characteristic of the setting, but still important.

Then again, I could just be biased as Crab player!

3 minutes ago, YasukiKaito said:

Maybe not the defining characteristic of the setting, but still important.

I'll just affirm that this was my only argument. That if you were to ask fans to summarize in one word, what L5R means to them, I believe those who'd say "Shadowlands," "Lost," "Fu Leng/Daigotsu," etc. would be in the minority.

Unless they meant "Lost" as a way of snarking the story reset.

2 minutes ago, YasukiKaito said:

I think the Shadowlands backstory is pretty important in the context of flavor. If you look at it as just 'evil stuff out there that comes to kill you' then yeah it is pretty interchangeable with anything else. But through the lens of the Kami Fu Leng falling from heaven, creating the festering pit, the corruption of the shadowlands through Jigoku, and the taint, I think that the story and flavor of the shadowlands is pretty important to L5R as whole. Maybe not the defining characteristic of the setting, but still important.

Then again, I could just be biased as Crab player!

I pretty much agree with this. I'm not the best at expessing myself, and I'm not saying that Shadowlands isn't interesting, nor am I just trying to call them an "evil horde of evil". I'm just looking that without the east Asian flavor that is the basis of Rokugan, the Shadowlands would feel more like Sauron's army or the White Walkers than the way they do now, which in my opinion makes the most important flavor of Rokugan that Asian aesthetic rather than the existence of a Shadowlannds.

We can go back and forth for HOURS (and I have) on what the core "Story" of Legend of the Five Rings has been in its 20 years of storytelling. However, by doing so, I think we are missing a key point: this is a new beginning.

Hear me out!

When L5R was first created, it was written in the mid-1990's by telling a fairly generic Western fantasy story (Kingdom in turmoil! Evil god rises! Kingdom must move past their differences and come together to save the day!) which simply appropriated HEAVILY from the chanbara style of jidaigeki films, along with nods towards the Book of the Five Rings and the Art of War (which were pop cultural texts of the 1990's thanks to Wall Street and other films). There are some seriously tone-deaf and entirely 1990's elements in the storytelling of L5R at its origin point (see: the history of Japanese invasions in Korea and China of the 20th century), but most importantly, it came from a place of genuine love for the chanbara and jidaigeki genre, if not complete understanding.

L5R has come a VERY long way in the 20 years of its history, and I am honestly amazed and impressed by the current staff working on it. Just LISTENING to Katrina Ostrander say the names of the characters and concepts is amazing. The Nu5R seems to be going whole hog into the less Westernized elements of L5R, and approaching the same world from a more inclusive, more representative (and a less derivative and appropriative) place. The Nu5R story team seem to be devoted to the concept of telling the story of L5R from the square one as a story of people dealing with human emotion and conflict while living in a society bound by harsh, explicit and impossible rules. This is the core of the emotional conflict inside the chanbara and jidaigeki genre, and I am happy to see it making its place here.

How does this relate to the Shadowlands?

The Shadowlands is a source of inhuman, unspeakable evil. It is literally a portal into Hell, spewing forth demons and undead. It is a dichotomic evil which does not fit well with the human-centered storytelling of the Nu5R. In order to make the Shadowlands a playable faction, they need to think how to represent this faction in a way that is both fun and thematic. Fundamentally, the Shadowlands cannot play the same as the Great Clans, because they are NOT a Great Clan. The only reason the Spider Clan even function as a concept is either as an infiltration group, playing by the rules of society to serve their own sinister ends, or as a "Demons on Heaven's Leash", where they are openly evil and corrupt but are still bound to work entirely in the service of the Empire. The latter is a troubled and troubling portrayal, but one that can ultimately work (if eternally opposed by the Phoenix, Lion, and Crab). The former depiction should never be a full Faction of its own.

As such, in my opinion, the Shadowlands works best as an alliance mechanic, where you sacrifice honor for short term power and gain. It is a willingness to use the power of a spiritual evil to further your Clan's goals, and achieve victory. Either through the Role card or through a Conflict Deck only Clan, the Shadowlands should be something which augments an existing faction, not an entire faction in and of its own.

Until, you know, Fu Leng returns to the Empire, and they create the Nu5R Siege Deck where everyone teams up to fight the ultimate evil.

26 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

The Nu5R story team seem to be devoted to the concept of telling the story of L5R from the square one as a story of people dealing with human emotion and conflict while living in a society bound by harsh, explicit and impossible rules.

I dunno, but I'm still waiting for a story that actually has these. Instead of, say, a guy being GTFO with his human problems because it is Supernatural-O-Clock. If you know what I say .

1 minute ago, AtoMaki said:

I dunno, but I'm still waiting for a story that actually has these. Instead of, say, a guy being GTFO with his human problems because it is Supernatural-O-Clock. If you know what I say .

To be fair, it was a dragon, those guys are more like "pawns on a chess board" then "people" to someone like Togashi.

2 hours ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

To be fair, it was a dragon, those guys are more like "pawns on a chess board" then "people" to someone like Togashi.

Not really, it's mentioned in the fluff more than once that Togashi loved humans more than the other kami, and believed in us, to the point where he felt we could beat fu leng when he and his siblings couldn't

On 12.7.2017 at 6:03 PM, Arcendo A said:

Please ... the Spider (or any similar) was a terrible mistake, a nonsense in this beautiful setting, and unnecessary in Rokugan in terms of lore. The role of the corruption in the setting was destroyed with the normalization of a corrupted super-dark clan...

Dont be afraid, it will work.

On 14.7.2017 at 5:47 PM, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

I would argue no. I would say the rival samurai clans and their fights for power is default, its just the nature of Rokugan, but clans and families infighting is something that is everywhere in the fantasy genre. The Shadowlands is pivotal to the flavor of the setting, without it Rokugan just wouldn't be rokugan.

The first story was the clan war, beginning with the scorpion coup, driven by the revelations of the day of thunder. From the black scrolls to the march of Kisada the shadowlands have always been immersed into the heart of Rokugan's flavor as a setting.

Sure the clans bickering is always an aspect of the setting, but 90% of the time it was background conflicts as the flavor and conflicts of the narrative came from the villainous shadowlands. The shadowlands always has had significant plot relevance in the CCG, it was one of the most popular factions that gave clans like Crab, Phoenix, and Scorpion very real reasons to be relevant in the empire.

I would argue that no single clan can claim to be more relevant to the nature and foundations of Rokugan as a setting then the shadowlands, except maybe the crane but even then its not like the other clans just wouldn't have samurai without them. Its shadowlands' opposition to Rokugan that has fundamentally shaped the way Rokugan functions and works.

If you just plucked out any clan and removed them, rokugan would be slightly different, but it would still be rokugan. Clans would easily fill in the gaps because the clans do have these overlaps that exist. No single clan really gives rokugan its flavor, no clan is TOO important to the setting that couldn't have other clans pick up their slack.

However, if you removed the shadowlands... man rokugan changes entirely. The entire nature of the empire would have evolved differently without the ever present thread of annihilation and corruption because the empire was built upon that nature.

Granted I'm not here trying to say that Clans and their conflicts aren't great, they are really fundamental to defining and giving them their own meanings, are fun to read and give everyone that sports team like fanfare that is so enjoyed by the community, but if we are looking for the most FLAVOR relevant faction, the one that defines the setting the most heavily, it would simply be the shadowlands in my book.

INDEED.

On 14.7.2017 at 7:25 PM, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

To be fair, it was a dragon, those guys are more like "pawns on a chess board" then "people" to someone like Togashi.

Hello Sir have you read this:

Amid this infighting, the largest and most dangerous Shadowlands army ever recorded marches on the great Carpenter Wall in the south. A combined force of goblins, ogres, undead, and legendary demons known as oni threaten to spread their darkness and destroy civilization in the name of Fu Leng, the fallen Kami. Hida Kisada of the Crab Clan and his children must gain the support of the entire Empire to turn back the tide of destruction or risk being broken beneath the evil Shadowlands onslaught.

Who among the clans will prove strong enough to guide Rokugan in these tumultuous times? Will their names be lifted up beside those of the honored ancestors, or will they fall among the ranks of the empire’s most infamous villains?

From this starting point, the storyline of Legend of the Five Rings: The Card Game begins! Look for the story to continue through fiction found in inserts in the Living Card Game, articles posted on our website, and at major tournaments.

Maybe we get that Shadowlans faction anyways i hope for it.

On 14.7.2017 at 7:25 PM, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

To be fair, it was a dragon, those guys are more like "pawns on a chess board" then "people" to someone like Togashi.

Hello Sir have you read this:

Amid this infighting, the largest and most dangerous Shadowlands army ever recorded marches on the great Carpenter Wall in the south. A combined force of goblins, ogres, undead, and legendary demons known as oni threaten to spread their darkness and destroy civilization in the name of Fu Leng, the fallen Kami. Hida Kisada of the Crab Clan and his children must gain the support of the entire Empire to turn back the tide of destruction or risk being broken beneath the evil Shadowlands onslaught.

Who among the clans will prove strong enough to guide Rokugan in these tumultuous times? Will their names be lifted up beside those of the honored ancestors, or will they fall among the ranks of the empire’s most infamous villains?

From this starting point, the storyline of Legend of the Five Rings: The Card Game begins! Look for the story to continue through fiction found in inserts in the Living Card Game, articles posted on our website, and at major tournaments.

Maybe we get that Shadowlans faction anyways i hope for it.