1: no. If you choose to prevent it detonating, you don't get to check range on it, because that's part of what happens afterwards.
2: no. Each separate trigger would need preventing detonating separately.
1: Nym has no range to check, so you have no window to check ranges. You are only allowed to check ranges when told to. Only possible argument i see falls in the order of things with a bomb thats detonating, but im pretty sure it Detonates and then checks range.
2: Clusters are considered 3 bombs in a group and are separate in their entirety. Even if you roll over multiples you trigger them one at a time, not a collective. Preventing one from blowing up would not prevent the other two. Furthermore, those are triggered every time a maneuver template touches them (or ship base), and Nym is not a turn-long thing its a per-instance thing. So he could stop it from blowing up once, but the next ship to touch it (or even the same ship if the template touches it leaving the spot) it will detonate anyway.
3 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:1: Nym has no range to check, so you have no window to check ranges. You are only allowed to check ranges when told to. Only possible argument i see falls in the order of things with a bomb thats detonating, but im pretty sure it Detonates and then checks range.
I *think* what he means is can he check which ships are in range or the bomb prior to deciding it hold it or not.
Yeah, i know. Thats where the last bit comes in on when you check range vs when the bomb "detonates"
To add on top of the second question. Say a ship lands on 2 cluster mine tokens. One detonates and you use Nyms ability to stop detonation for the 2nd token for that round. What is the timing next round that the Cluster mine token that was stopped from detonating now detonate? In theory I'd be right away at the start of the next round since it's on top of it and the timing for it to detonate is just a ship overlapping it. The advantage of this is you can Sabine two rounds guaranteed in a row (once from each token even though the ship landed on both in 1 round) with that type of decision.
Edited by RStan44 minutes ago, RStan said:To add on top of the second question. Say a ship lands on 2 cluster mine tokens. One detonates and you use Nyms ability to stop detonation for the 2nd token for that round. What is the timing next round that the Cluster mine token that was stopped from detonating now detonate? In theory I'd be right away at the start of the next round since it's on top of it and the timing for it to detonate is just a ship overlapping it. The advantage of this is you can Sabine two rounds guaranteed in a row (once from each token even though the ship landed on both in 1 round) with that type of decision.
A ship already on the token will not trigger it again. If neither the movement template nor final base position overlap the mine then the ship could move away from it without ever setting it off.
The trigger is when a ship overlaps it, not any time a ship is overlapping it. Once movement is done, no more trigger.
1 hour ago, InquisitorM said:A ship already on the token will not trigger it again. If neither the movement template nor final base position overlap the mine then the ship could move away from it without ever setting it off.
The trigger is when a ship overlaps it, not any time a ship is overlapping it. Once movement is done, no more trigger.
That doesn't really make sense when, for example Miranda, can drop a cluster mine on top of Fenn Rau and it will detonate immediately even though Fenn Rau hasn't moved at all in which neither a movement template nor a final position after a move has occurred.
Edited by RStan31 minutes ago, RStan said:That doesn't really make sense when, for example Miranda, can drop a cluster mine on top of Fenn Rau and it will detonate immediately even though Fenn Rau hasn't moved at all in which neither a movement template nor a final position after a move has occurred.
It does because the rules explicitly state that that's what you do when dropping a bomb template:
QuoteIf a bomb token is dropped on a ship, it is placed under the ship’s base. The bomb does not immediately detonate unless the bomb’s Upgrade card specifies that it detonates when a ship overlaps it.
That trigger happens once at the moment you drop the bomb. It does not happen again. If Nym prevents the bomb from detonating, it will not be triggered again until a ship overlaps it because of movement.
Thanks for the answers, guys. They all mirrored what I figured was the case.
14 hours ago, InquisitorM said:That trigger happens once at the moment you drop the bomb. It does not happen again. If Nym prevents the bomb from detonating, it will not be triggered again until a ship overlaps it because of movement.
The trigger for a Connor Net, Proximity Mine or Cluster mine is when a base or Movement template overlaps it. Nowhere does it say that it can't can't be triggered again unless it moves. It ABSOLUTELY would go off at the start of the next turn. It says "When a ships base or movement template overlaps this token it detonates." It is only being held back for the round because of Nym. Nym says "Once per round you may prevent a bomb token from exploding" When the round ends, so does Nym's ability, so the detonation ability comes back into effect. Thus the bomb goes off at the start of the next round unless Nym prevents it again.
8 minutes ago, xbeaker said:The trigger for a Connor Net, Proximity Mine or Cluster mine is when a base or Movement template overlaps it. Nowhere does it say that it can't can't be triggered again unless it moves. It ABSOLUTELY would go off at the start of the next turn. It says "When a ships base or movement template overlaps this token it detonates." It is only being held back for the round because of Nym. Nym says "Once per round you may prevent a bomb token from exploding" When the round ends, so does Nym's ability, so the detonation ability comes back into effect. Thus the bomb goes off at the start of the next round unless Nym prevents it again.
If this were the case, Nym's ability would do nothing at all for action bombs except when the template crossed them but the base didn't. It doesn't set a time for how long the cancellation of detonation lasts, and the condition of overlapping the mine doesn't stop until you move away from it. You're inserting a time based end to his ability - nym's detonation cancellation lasting until the end of the round - that just isn't present on the card. He prevents the detonation, it doesn't happen again until next time its trigger occurs, which is next time a base or template overlaps the mine (or for a dial bomb, the beginning of the next combat phase).
19 minutes ago, xbeaker said:The trigger for a Connor Net, Proximity Mine or Cluster mine is when a base or Movement template overlaps it. Nowhere does it say that it can't can't be triggered again unless it moves. It ABSOLUTELY would go off at the start of the next turn. It says "When a ships base or movement template overlaps this token it detonates." It is only being held back for the round because of Nym. Nym says "Once per round you may prevent a bomb token from exploding" When the round ends, so does Nym's ability, so the detonation ability comes back into effect. Thus the bomb goes off at the start of the next round unless Nym prevents it again.
No. He prevents it from exploding. So it doesn't explode, and that trigger is gone.
Similar to obstacles, they do nothing if you start your turn on them. If your maneuver template was to go over the obstruction during the following round (or you somehow ended on it again, say via a bump), you'd THEN trigger it again, not before.
There is no rules text to support your interpretation that they'd explode the following round because a ship was still on them. No game effect tells you to constantly check to see if something is on a bomb, or any, token.
7 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:If this were the case, Nym's ability would do nothing at all for action bombs except when the template crossed them but the base didn't. It doesn't set a time for how long the cancellation of detonation lasts, and the condition of overlapping the mine doesn't stop until you move away from it. You're inserting a time based end to his ability - nym's detonation cancellation lasting until the end of the round - that just isn't present on the card. He prevents the detonation, it doesn't happen again until next time its trigger occurs, which is next time a base or template overlaps the mine (or for a dial bomb, the beginning of the next combat phase).
If Nym prevented a bomb from "triggering" I would agree. It would have to work that way because otherwise the implied alternate is that "OK, it didn't trigger in that instant, now his ability is it over, you are still there, it triggers now" But the ability says once per round prevents it from "exploding". That says, to me, that that particular bomb cannot explode that round, at all, under any circumstances. But as soon as the round ends and the next begins, it can explode, you are still triggering it, so off it goes. You very well may be right, and I wound't really argue in a game. But my view is if he tags a cluster mine that say a friendly X-wing ran over, then a TIE fighter follows in move, the TIE is safe too. That bomb will not explode this turn.
14 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:No. He prevents it from exploding. So it doesn't explode, and that trigger is gone.
Similar to obstacles, they do nothing if you start your turn on them. If your maneuver template was to go over the obstruction during the following round (or you somehow ended on it again, say via a bump), you'd THEN trigger it again, not before.
There is no rules text to support your interpretation that they'd explode the following round because a ship was still on them. No game effect tells you to constantly check to see if something is on a bomb, or any, token.
I see what you are saying, but the rules on obstacles are very clear that hitting one effects a later round. That is a 1 time event, but TOUCHING an asteroid is a persistent effect. You lose your ability to attack. If Corran horn is on an asteroid, he doesn't just lose his ability to attack during his pilot skill attack slot, he loses his end of round attack too. You cannot attack while on an asteroid. Similarly (and I actually did this to my detriment in a game) if a ship is on an asteroid, but a seismic torpedo is used to destroy that asteroid, they can attack because they are not on it when the the effect would take place.
In a cluster bomb's case they are always trying to explode (just as a n asteroid is always preventing your attack), but Nym has defused them for the round. At the end of the round, the red wire is reconnected, the detonator button is still being held down and the bomb goes off.
Also like to point out that there is no text supporting your interpretation that once the dropping action is complete only a movement can trigger a bomb either. It says triggers when a base or template overlaps, not when a base or template overlaps only during a movement phase.
16 minutes ago, xbeaker said:That is a 1 time event, but TOUCHING an asteroid is a persistent effect. You lose your ability to attack.
But you never roll for damage again while you're just touching, right? You only roll for damage again if your next manoeuvre template touches the obstacle. That's your parallel.
Nym only prevents a bomb from exploding once per round. A bomb token could theoretically have multiple sources that trigger it, and Nym would not be able to stop it a second time. Nothing on his card says it is persistent (quite the opposite, in fact, as it says "Once"). Silver Rule of X-Wing - read what's on the card, not what isn't.
Bombs trigger when a ship overlaps them. That only happens once, at a single moment, and X-Wing does not look for this again until the ship has been moved.
Edit, as I assume this will be your next point: Bombs have specific rules text that was added that causes them to explode when dropped ONTO a ship. The reason why this special rules text had to be added (and errata'd to older cards) is because X-Wing does NOT check for overlap unless the ship moves, so dropping bombs on ships would not cause them to explode. The only reason they do is because of the special rules text covering that very specific example, in relation to the moment bombs are deployed.
Obstacles don't check for overlap at the beginning of a round, ships don't, nothing does.
And, since no rules say bombs do, assuming they check at the beginning of the round is adding text to the game that does not exist.
Edited by ArbitraryNerdThe only reason touching an asteroid has a lingering effect is because its effect TELLS YOU to do that.
Nothing else, not even debris, has a clause that lingers beyond the initial triggered event. Merely being on a bomb, debris, rock, or touching a ship at the start of the turn does not trigger its effect, otherwise if you landed on a rock/debris you'd automatically suffer it twice.
Bombs only trigger off overlapping over maneuver template touching it. Overlapping is NOT a persistent effect, its an event involving movement which leads to other keywords for any lingering effects such as rocks/touching.
Asteroids DO have a lingering effect. Otherwise you would lose your attack even if it is destroyed prior to your attack phase. That seems to be the closest parallel to this situation. Not the 'when you hit', but 'if you are overlapping'. But it doesn't really matter, these are unique cases with bombs because the prior to the scurrg there has never been a reason to question it, since there was no was to have a bomb that outlasts the moment of impact. You can't point to any rule that will prove your point. I can't can't point to one that will prove mine. Because there is none. You say you have to read what is on the card, well the card says "when". When is "when".. the entire time. When a ship touches an asteroid it cannot attack. When you are in the water, you are wet. Not just the instant you enter or if you change positions. So the only way I can see Nym working is if he is defusing the bomb for the entire round other wise you prevent it from exploding that instant, but it would go off a second later. So yes, this ability is broken for the instance where someone lands on a token based bomb. I see your point, it is valid. But I see it the other way, and mine is valid too. Sorry, short of FF clearing it up, you will not convince me otherwise. It is OK for us to disagree on this point.
1 hour ago, xbeaker said:If Nym prevented a bomb from "triggering" I would agree. It would have to work that way because otherwise the implied alternate is that "OK, it didn't trigger in that instant, now his ability is it over, you are still there, it triggers now" But the ability says once per round prevents it from "exploding". That says, to me, that that particular bomb cannot explode that round, at all, under any circumstances. But as soon as the round ends and the next begins, it can explode, you are still triggering it, so off it goes. You very well may be right, and I wound't really argue in a game. But my view is if he tags a cluster mine that say a friendly X-wing ran over, then a TIE fighter follows in move, the TIE is safe too. That bomb will not explode this turn.
Why this turn? You're adding a timing the card doesn't include. Don't do what the card doesn't say to do.
It prevents it detonating. Once per round. It would detonate the first time something overlaps it, now it detonates the second time, unless nothing else overlaps it that round, in which case, it's the first time next round. Asteroids are not the best case btw, debris clouds are. The only have an effect when something moves through or overlaps - but they only have their effect once per overlap or move-through.
The next time it can detonate is the next time a base or template overlaps it. If that's not already satisfied (i.e. it simply doesn't work on action-bombs dropped directly onto ships, which is definitely arguable) then it works until the next time that happens - which isn't magically at the start of the next round, unless it *says* it is.
You're making things up.
Or to put it another way, why pick the end of the round as the arbitrary point where something overlaps again? Why not the start of the combat phase? Why not the start of the end phase?
2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:Why this turn? You're adding a timing the card doesn't include. Don't do what the card doesn't say to do.
It prevents it detonating. Once per round. It would detonate the first time something overlaps it, now it detonates the second time, unless nothing else overlaps it that round, in which case, it's the first time next round. Asteroids are not the best case btw, debris clouds are. The only have an effect when something moves through or overlaps - but they only have their effect once per overlap or move-through.
The next time it can detonate is the next time a base or template overlaps it. If that's not already satisfied (i.e. it simply doesn't work on action-bombs dropped directly onto ships, which is definitely arguable) then it works until the next time that happens - which isn't magically at the start of the next round, unless it *says* it is.
You're making things up.
Or to put it another way, why pick the end of the round as the arbitrary point where something overlaps again? Why not the start of the combat phase? Why not the start of the end phase?
We are all putting arbitrary time limits on, because no where does it say that a bomb can't explode once you have manage to get on it without detonating it. Yes, they had to clarify in the FAQ that dropping a bomb on a stationary ship detonates it BECAUSE people erroneously believed that it could only detonate through movement. It doesn't say in that this is the only time that a stationary ship can detonate a placement based bomb, you all are just adding that in. I am saying it is the round because Nym's ability is once per round. I concede that it doesn't say that he can stop the bomb from exploding for the round. But it also doesn't say that other ships or other triggers can detonate it. By written rule, Nym could make a bomb a dud that sits useless on the map for the rest of the game. But since it was (I believe) said in the teaser article, not that those are law by any means, that a timed bomb would explode the next round if Nym didn't hold it back again, that both hit ability and it's effect reset at the start of the next round.
6 minutes ago, xbeaker said:We are all putting arbitrary time limits on, because no where does it say that a bomb can't explode once you have manage to get on it without detonating it. Yes, they had to clarify in the FAQ that dropping a bomb on a stationary ship detonates it BECAUSE people erroneously believed that it could only detonate through movement. It doesn't say in that this is the only time that a stationary ship can detonate a placement based bomb, you all are just adding that in. I am saying it is the round because Nym's ability is once per round. I concede that it doesn't say that he can stop the bomb from exploding for the round. But it also doesn't say that other ships or other triggers can detonate it. By written rule, Nym could make a bomb a dud that sits useless on the map for the rest of the game. But since it was (I believe) said in the teaser article, not that those are law by any means, that a timed bomb would explode the next round if Nym didn't hold it back again, that both hit ability and it's effect reset at the start of the next round.
Not sure there's much left to debate. The rules have been explained, and you are choosing to ignore them. I recommend you either stick to casual games, or accept that your interpretations/opinions/feelings will not hold up in a tournament setting.
There can only be so many times members of this forum are willing to smash their heads into a brick wall whilst trying to explain rules to you. They have been explained, and you are simply in denial.
1 minute ago, ArbitraryNerd said:
Not sure there's much left to debate. The rules have been explained, and you are choosing to ignore them. I recommend you either stick to casual games, or accept that your interpretations/opinions/feelings will not hold up in a tournament setting.
There can only be so many times members of this forum are willing to smash their heads into a brick wall whilst trying to explain rules to you. They have been explained, and you are simply in denial.
Fair enough.. I stated several posts back that I accept that we have a difference of opinion and I was OK with that. I am not in denial, I see your interpretation, you are unwilling to even consider mine. There is no reason for you to get nasty. You haven't explained any rules, just your interpretation of them. If you could point to an actual rule I would have not have argued. There is debate on this only because there is no hard and fast rule for it right now.
9 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:
Not sure there's much left to debate. The rules have been explained, and you are choosing to ignore them. I recommend you either stick to casual games, or accept that your interpretations/opinions/feelings will not hold up in a tournament setting.
There can only be so many times members of this forum are willing to smash their heads into a brick wall whilst trying to explain rules to you. They have been explained, and you are simply in denial.
I also said in a previous post that I wouldn't argue this in an actual game. I have been in a few tournaments, and never had a problem. I didn't realize that this was a me against the forum thing. I thought e were all simply discussing the logistics of a card that was currently in an ambiguous state.