One thing I really don't like is option bloat.

I have a massive binder full of x-wing cards and it's honestly the biggest barrier to me actually playing x-wing.

It would be very easy to keep an army up to date and on the power curve by releasing new command packs and heroes. Suddenly all your favorite units have more options and choices that keep those models you painted relevant.

Also I don't think rune Wars benefits from massive numbers of unique unit choices. Each unit's dial is packed with very importaint information and having reference for enemy dials is a huge part of strategy and play. Therefor a few options is all you really need for an engageing game.

also more factions actually keeps more options relevant. If you look at FFG's lCG they have tons of factions for each game and do a pretty ok job of keeping them balanced and keeping core box set options relevant.

I'd like to ask how adding a new unit to an existing faction is so much easier to balance than adding a unit into a new (empty) faction? In an existing faction you have to consider how it will be used along every single unit released for the faction. In a new faction you know exactly what it will be used with

I agree that balancing the game is extremely difficult, but I think that having more factions makes it easier by having less combinations of potential killer combos compared to a smaller number of larger factions

All in all it may well be just as difficult so it would not be worth killing diversity for

I would like a Rune Golem hero to buff Rune Golems.

I would not be the least surprised to see them announce Orcs and Dwarves at Gencon.

4 hours ago, Corto said:

I'd like to ask how adding a new unit to an existing faction is so much easier to balance than adding a unit into a new (empty) faction? In an existing faction you have to consider how it will be used along every single unit released for the faction. In a new faction you know exactly what it will be used with

I agree that balancing the game is extremely difficult, but I think that having more factions makes it easier by having less combinations of potential killer combos compared to a smaller number of larger factions

All in all it may well be just as difficult so it would not be worth killing diversity for

Because every additional faction needs to be tested fully against all existing factions regardless. When you add a unit to a faction you have known metrics you have put in place and measure against, as well as the other interaction 4 way. Once you make that interaction 5 way and 6 way, it gets really hairy, and Maro/Kari are already going to stress that in ways left on the design table. It has a lot to do with the available permutations, one is a multiple (adding a unit), one is a power (adding to the exponent) when it comes to actually testing the thing. And yes, the more units you get, the more testing takea regardless, but that is normal and expected. Keeping it to sane, plausible levels is the goal.

If you have 5 or 6 units in a faction testing their interaction is straightforward, it is testing that against every others factions 5 or 6 unit permutations that really takes time. Now you aren't worried about anything but the big picture, but you still need to try and see it.

How does more factions reduce combos in your mind?

1 hour ago, Darthain said:

If you have 5 or 6 units in a faction testing their interaction is straightforward, it is testing that against every others factions 5 or 6 unit permutations that really takes time. Now you aren't worried about anything but the big picture, but you still need to try and see it.

How does more factions reduce combos in your mind?

Adding a unit to a faction can dramatically change its dynamic (e. g. Crossbows to Daqan) so that would throw your metrics out of the window. You do not just have to test how a unit performs against the other factions but also how it impacts all the possible units inside its own faction so the balancing is about total number of units irrespective of the number of factions.

How more factions reduce combos is that if you have 4 factions with 4 units each, each of them has 15 unit combinations to test for combos. With 2 factions of 8 units each has a potential of 63 combo - producing combinations. Then you add the cards etc... Having factions enables you to restrict new units and cards so they can't be used with another specific unit or set of units to form a broken combination

1 minute ago, Corto said:

Adding a unit to a faction can dramatically change its dynamic (e. g. Crossbows to Daqan) so that would throw your metrics out of the window. You do not just have to test how a unit performs against the other factions but also how it impacts all the possible units inside its own faction so the balancing is about total number of units irrespective of the number of factions.

How more factions reduce combos is that if you have 4 factions with 4 units each, each of them has 15 unit combinations to test for combos. With 2 factions of 8 units each has a potential of 63 combo - producing combinations. Then you add the cards etc... Having factions enables you to restrict new units and cards so they can't be used with another specific unit or set of units to form a broken combination

When did I say you didn't have to test it against everything already there in the faction? In fact I said the opposite. How many unit types are you choosing to get your numbers. 4 units could be 10 per faction combos of unit (1-2,1-3, 1-4, 2-3, 2-4,3-4,1-2-3,1-2-4,1-3-4,2-3-4), against factions having those 10 permutations. My stats are rusty, but that looks a lot like 400 combinations for 4 factions with 4 units, not 16.

6 factions with 4 units each is going to be monstrously dull game while we all sit and wait for the next faction and its units without the game evolving at all. You need to actually keep the game alive, new factions are just life support.

when a single faction gets too many options they all compeat against eachother for inclusion in the same list. Ultimetly due to laziness, group think, or poor balance players tend to only buy and build a few popular units in a faction even if many exist to choose from.

But when there are lots of factions with few choices those choices do not have to compeat against eachother.

For example in x-wing there are three versions of heavy missile/bomber ties. tie bomber, tie punisher, and now tie avenger. Punisher is considered a very poor choice because the same role is often better filled by something else, also most imperial players think bombs are either terrible or totally unfair cheese so we have three ships who fill a role people in that faction don't even want.

I had counted all units individually, which was wrong of me, but you have not counted all units together

So we agree that you need to treat all units against all units so number of factions is irrelevant

We do disagree though that 4 units would make a dull game, I find the game interesting. It will be better with more but I don't see the need for 10 different units in the medium term, while I would welcome more factions. I do see why you would think differently and respect that

19 hours ago, jek said:

I don't mind the idea of cross faction play as long as it makes sense...Kari has elf allies, ok that works. Maro has corrupted...well everything, sure I guess I can get on board with that...But in this world seeing some mercs that are just like yup we sell our swords to everyone! undead? no problem, drinking demon blood? we cool with you!...It was why I like how mercs work in WMH, when they came out they all have specific factions they work for, no one really worked for cryx at first...but I don't know. I would throw cross faction play out a window if it unbalances the game to the point where the game play was affected...

I will say that Kari irks me less than Ankaur. A cross faction penalty of 2 blight tokens on a faction that moves so **** slowly isn't a noteworthy penalty. If Ankaur's penalty had been more severe, like every action on the cross faction unit's dial had 2 added to the initiative, then I would probably be fine. If that happened, then the new unit plays significantly differently than it would in the usually faction

Also each unit choice in rune Wars is far deeper and more flexible than most games. You could take 12 bases of reanimates as 6 units of 2, 3 units of 4, 2 units of 6, or a mix of various sizes or all in one lump. Each different composition will play entirely different and that's before we consider upgrade cards!

The depth and flexibility of choices we already have is huge!

There absolutely needs to be more than 4 units per faction.

In any miniature game ive played the main allure was variety, this just happens to be the first ive played that is brand spankin' new so it doesnt have that "yet" - the game is stale when its literally the same thing over and over again.

2 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

There absolutely needs to be more than 4 units per faction.

In any miniature game ive played the main allure was variety, this just happens to be the first ive played that is brand spankin' new so it doesnt have that "yet" - the game is stale when its literally the same thing over and over again.

To add to this, we don't need extremely wide variance on each faction (like, 10-12 units) anytime soon, but what I'm guessing most of us 'develop the 4 first' advocates want in the near term is like, 6-8 units.

I think it's useful to talk about specifically which types of units would be interesting to add to the various factions. I'll take Undead as an example:

• Barghests - A lighter, faster, cheaper alternative cavalry to Death Knights. In Battlelore, they cause panic and function best as lone-wolf flankers. This could easily be implemented in Runewars.
• Vampires - This could honestly be a hero, but it could also be really cool as a mobile "elite infantry" that could gain mobility by having a 'fly-over' skill transforming into bats. They also were able to convert enemies into vampires, so they could have a damage based regen/lifesteal effect. They appeared in the Runewars boardgame and I believe in Runeage as well.
• Bone Horrors - Either an even cheaper alternative to Reanimates as a tarpit unit (if they go off Battlelore) or a weird cavalry if they go with the idea that they were Ankaur's mount. These guys had some bad mobility, but they were an extremely cheap unit. They could maybe even have some form of self-sacrificing utility to shield nearby units. Cheap tank?
• Baneshees - This was a legendary unit in Battlelore, but I think it would be a good fit for a 'siege' unit on par with Carrion Wyrms. It would be more focused on morale tests penalties for enemies and morale test buffs for allies. You could even give it a unique morale effect that only it can cause. Sort of an 'on-demand' morale card if you will.

The ideas I put here aren't necessarily what they should do, and I won't say these ideas I wrote are good either. My point was to show that they have PLENTY of room to expand on the existing factions in ways that don't necessarily have tons of overlap with pre-existing factions. If I can spit this out in 10 minutes (based on their other games), imagine the kind of stuff real designers could do with balance testing.

There are pretty clear indications from the lore book that we will be getting more stuff for each faction.

I'm guessing that we will see around 6-8 units per faction Before next gen con.

9 minutes ago, TylerTT said:

There are pretty clear indications from the lore book that we will be getting more stuff for each faction.

I'm guessing that we will see around 6-8 units per faction Before next gen con.

I hope so much that you're right!

We are already at 4 units announced per-faction not counting hero or command.

I figure 2-3 unit types each for infantry, cav, and siege.

so just picking at the Daquan I see these units teased

some sort of champion pack with elf, dwarf, guys from the free cities to augment units like a command pack.

elven trained human archers.

battle chariots (likely siege)

river watch Calvary, lite maneuverable

totem guard, heavy elite troops

iron bound. (Animated Armor suits, maybe siege units)

I agree that the actual 4 factions need to grow.

I would love to see some multifaction boxes with for example orcs for both Daqan and Uthuk, or dwarfs for Daqan and Latari. Each with a different stats card to give the feel of the faction.

If there will be a dedicated factions for orcs or dwarfs they could just make a starter set like they've done for scum on X-Wing with some new units and the stat cards for the other ones.

Some things I'd like to see:

Blister packs of special character unit champs, Musicians, Wizards, ectra. Just a single figure and a card(s) with rules. Could be fun.

Develop the main factions with more content and then release some junior factions. A pirate themed force. other types of stuff with just 2-3 total troop choices and a 1 maybe 2 hero included.

I think the game needs more factions beyond the 4 to survive.

Well it is monday. Lets see what FFG decides to put out today. My bet is on Uthuk Reinforcement announcement.

either that or the elf melee unit...

I expect the Uthuk expansions to be announced shortly, followed by another hero. Then another unit for each of the other 3 factions. That's what happened with the Latari Elves.

2 hours ago, rowdyoctopus said:

I expect the Uthuk expansions to be announced shortly, followed by another hero. Then another unit for each of the other 3 factions. That's what happened with the Latari Elves.

Winning.

6 minutes ago, Glucose98 said:

Winning.

Yea my prediction was right.

On 13/7/2017 at 11:09 AM, ID X T said:

I would not be the least surprised to see them announce Orcs and Dwarves at Gencon.

I hope FFG hears you. We need orcs and dwarves! two of the most popular armies and races on any fantasy boardgame / videogame / film...

WE will need the return of dragon kin. They are very popular in the runebound lore. And I doubt they are dead... would be funny if we get an army with almost only big models like the giants in warhammer. Les miniatures but bigger ones.

Btw: do you think we will get other bases the. The 3 types we have so far? Maybe a double sized tray?