So I was just reading through some of the Scorp stuff we know about, and thought this cards timing seemed really weird. Thought this would be the best place to ask about it.

Bayushi Manipulator

1 Fate: 1/1 - 1

Reaction: After Honor Dials are revealed, increase your bid by 1.

So yeah, does this dude mean that after we reveal a pair of 3s, that's what we play with and then after that I get 1 more notch on my dial strictly for the Scorp stuff that keys off of honor dials? Or are we thinking that this guy does actually influence the draws and honor exchange of a turn? Or is this the kind of thing we need a rulebook and a ruleshark contest for?

I've been wondering about him for awhile. I think its going to need a rulebook. Lets say the rulebook says that the amount of honor you transfer is locked when you reveal. Since Manipulator reacts after reveal he would draw you an extra card without costing you an extra honor.

It's a reaction to after dials are revealed, so, yes, it will modify the result of the dials for whatever they're being revealed for.

1 minute ago, JRosen9 said:

I've been wondering about him for awhile. I think its going to need a rulebook. Lets say the rulebook says that the amount of honor you transfer is locked when you reveal. Since Manipulator reacts after reveal he would draw you an extra card without costing you an extra honor.

That's not the way timing works in other LCGs (again, L5R might be different, but so far the underlying rules structure has been the same based on designer comments). You've revealed the honor dials, but not resolved the effect of what the dials are used for yet. But, again, let's wait for the actual Rules Reference to see.

This is very interesting, I think the larger bid will have a normal effect, paying the honor to the opponent.

If you look at holding city of lies, it seems that the scorpion's focus will be to use multiple cards to gain control.

As probably the scorpion will have the dishonor deck, the higher bid question serves to balance the exchange of honor, which will normally make the scorpion's opponents give the low bid to don't dishonor too fast.

Probably the scorpion will have cards like "if your bid was higher than your opponent's...."

I think the fact that it is a Reaction and keys off of when honor dials are revealed would indicate that the change takes place before effects are resolved. This could be important for Scorpion playing on the edge of Dishonor, as it would allow them to bid lower and then raise their bid if necessary (rather than always bidding high and losing tons of honor).

Personally, I find this manipulative aspect of Scorpion intriguing, and I hope it continues to other cards, too. Maybe we could have something like:

Unwanted Aid

Reaction: After Honor Dials are revealed, increase an opponent's bid by 1.

I figure the gameplay will be that it if you reveal X and opponent reveals Y, you'll do the difference in honor of X-Y exchange, but when you go to draw, you'll draw X+1.

~D

My question is if he can increase a bid from 5 to 6. Or if it wraps around to 0 or 1. Or if he can't do anything.

Brad mentioned in a live stream that you will have to pay the honor for over budding if you manipulate above them. So it's in reaction before effects.

He also said you can go to 6

I'm guessing (to use HoodieDM's notation) that this means that if you bid X and your opponent bids Y, you'll then lose (X+1)-Y honour and draw X+1 cards.

Functionally, it increases the maximum amount you can bid. If you ever played an old-school Suicide Black deck in MtG, you know where this is going.

33 minutes ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

My question is if he can increase a bid from 5 to 6. Or if it wraps around to 0 or 1. Or if he can't do anything.

I don't think you can Bid 0... can a player do that? (can any player bid 0?)

First, let's look at the actual card because the wording is important (and different from the initial post)

From the article, it increases the actual dial rather than a temporary increase, if people are wondering. The article also talks about the draw phase consisting of four steps: bidding, revealing, honor exchange, and drawing. Because of this four step process, the Manipulator would simply be a reaction to the revealing step before determining the exchange of honor. The timing isn't too bad once you think about the draw phase with those four separate steps.

Also, as has been mentioned, because it increases the value, not moving the dial, you can go above 5. If you can get all 3 out, as it is non unique, you could go all the way up to 8 if you felt like it.

I want to see a card with the reverse effect, after revealing bids you can lower yours by 1. Put both in play and leave your opponent guessing which one gets triggered.

41 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

I want to see a card with the reverse effect, after revealing bids you can lower yours by 1. Put both in play and leave your opponent guessing which one gets triggered.

I wonder. It may be more thematic if Scorpion get abilities like "raise your bid by 1" or "lower your opponent's bid by 1", while another clan that focuses more on Honor could get effects of "lower your bid by 1" and "raise your opponent's bid by 1".

2 hours ago, fyrm said:

Also, as has been mentioned, because it increases the value, not moving the dial, you can go above 5. If you can get all 3 out, as it is non unique, you could go all the way up to 8 if you felt like it.

The way it's worded, I'd say that you permanently increase the dial. Since the dial only goes from 1-5, the choices are somewhat limited but potentially higher than for other players.

As for a clan that could do the opposite, I'd put money on the Phoenix. I say that because of cards like the temple holding. The Crane can be second based their open aspect, despite some political sneakiness they sometimes use.

A third clan could be the Crab under the Yasuki. This could be associated with their merchant and haggling side. Maybe they could affect either dial by a simple opponent's choice. A example is a card that can let the opponent draw a card or you get to change one of the dials by 1.

2 hours ago, Kubernes said:

The way it's worded, I'd say that you permanently increase the dial. Since the dial only goes from 1-5, the choices are somewhat limited but potentially higher than for other players.

As for a clan that could do the opposite, I'd put money on the Phoenix. I say that because of cards like the temple holding. The Crane can be second based their open aspect, despite some political sneakiness they sometimes use.

A third clan could be the Crab under the Yasuki. This could be associated with their merchant and haggling side. Maybe they could affect either dial by a simple opponent's choice. A example is a card that can let the opponent draw a card or you get to change one of the dials by 1.

Who says the dial only goes from 1 to 5? you set it to between 1 and 5 during the bidding phase, but the dial has 6 sides, so I would expect 1 - 6 or 0 - 5.

Its bid > reveal > +/- honor > draw

as a Scorpion dishonor, I'd always want to bid lowest (1).

Its first turn shenanigans, most opponent would want to either:

a. draw Max, f the honor loss. This is the ideal choice for us, they lose 4 honor but draws 5. BM can just hang loose or if your are pretty scared, he can bump so you can draw a few more and choose how many honor loss the opponents gets.

b. knows you're bidding one so he tries to ties. We reveal both 1s and draws remains equal, BM can be used so you are now ahead on cards in hand, sure it gives a honor to your opponent but making your opponent draw minimum is a win itself.

c. knows your bidding one so he budgets his honor loss this turn to 1 or 2 honor loss..this is iffy situation ( and probably the most common one) they dont lose much honor and they get to draw more cards than you. BM allows you to manage both that. Mitigating opponent's card advantage versus sacrificing honor hits is the balancing act you have to make.

in short, BM makes bidding 1 not so risky.

33 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Who says the dial only goes from 1 to 5? you set it to between 1 and 5 during the bidding phase, but the dial has 6 sides, so I would expect 1 - 6 or 0 - 5.

The read more portion of the L5R page says the dial is numbered 1-5.

The manipulator is also great for dueling. He lets you bid as low as you dare then increase by number of manipulators in play, it's really strong honor tec

1 hour ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Who says the dial only goes from 1 to 5? you set it to between 1 and 5 during the bidding phase, but the dial has 6 sides, so I would expect 1 - 6 or 0 - 5.

The honor dial is not a six sided die.

16 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Unwanted Aid

Reaction: After Honor Dials are revealed, increase an opponent's bid by 1.

Personally, I'd be shocked as hell if there wasn't a way of playing with their bids. Seems to me like apart from directly Dishonoring, honor bids in duels and the draw are the core way that honor is gained or lost.

That said, they could easily decide that whole realm is a potential area for stuff to break the game, cause you're potentially destroying peoples draw phases and that can go into NPE territory.

@Kubernes - Thanks for breaking that down for us, seems like we've answered that!

8 hours ago, Oliveira said:

The honor dial is not a six sided die.

You are quite correct. It is two hexagonal pieces of card, with a plastic hub and a hole near one corner. Hence six sides.

There are 6 potential places for numbers there.

20 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

You are quite correct. It is two hexagonal pieces of card, with a plastic hub and a hole near one corner. Hence six sides.

There are 6 potential places for numbers there.

I thought so! Does this mean you can choose to draw no cards?

52 minutes ago, Devin-the-Poet said:

I thought so! Does this mean you can choose to draw no cards?

Or maybe one corner is blank because #Reasons