3 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

Can't agree with that. I'm currently preparing for ETC (European Team Championships). It's essentially a tournament pitting teams of 6 against one another. Each team consists of 2 players from each faction and the rule is that no unique pilot or upgrade can repeat itself within the team. You know how many problems we had with that restriction? None at all. Pretty much everyone ended up playing whatever they wanted. There was maybe one case when both players would like to take the same unique upgrade but they found a substitute almost immediately. And this is top level players we're talking about. Nobody gets picked for a national ETC team unless they had success in large events and there's no place for funny lists there - everyone's flying whatever they think is going to give them the win. I think the pot is much broader than you give it credit for.

Where may I find the results from this when it's finished?, this sounds awesome and I'd love to hear the results of te matches or watch a livestream.

And I agree, the pot begins to look pretty wide once you stop being so narrow (meta) minded

21 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Sure. And if you let all three players on a team play the same faction without restriction would you expect the same diversity?

Under the top few lists there is a really healthy metagame struggling to get out.

There are 6 players in each team. 2 per faction. No repeating of unique pilots or upgrades across the entire team. And no problems at all with that restriction. Sure, you could say that if it was 3 players per faction, the restriction would be more problematic. But that still wouldn't mean all 3 players per faction would want to play the same thing - just that they might want to share some upgrades or pilots.

Quote

Where may I find the results from this when it's finished?, this sounds awesome and I'd love to hear the results of te matches or watch a livestream.

And I agree, the pot begins to look pretty wide once you stop being so narrow (meta) minded

Would have to ask the orgs about that. I'd expect the results will be posted somewhere. Don't know if there'll be any streams but I hope so!

while there's been some increase in red dice - I think the action economy creep has been far more - and is the core of a lot of problems... Look at K4 Unhinged Expertise Dengar builds - fire 2x and get roughly 4 actions, with no downside , other than performing a green , which is almost any left move, and any speed 3 move. Sure you're paying for it - but you can't buy red dice like that - and it only costs 8 points... that's cheaper than 3x ptl, for the equivalent of 3x ptl with no stress - and you can sacrifice 1 action to do it flying over a rock...

Mindlink didn't used to cause trouble - because lists couldn't use all the focus properly - with the inability to really turn. Sure it could generate some action advantage on some turns - but now with Asajj and Fen having green turns - it's broken open and is handing out lots of usable actions. X7 defenders post nerf are still good - vastly improving action economy. Palpatine - essentially a free action anywhere when you need it.

Swarm leader can give you extra attack dice, but at the expense of actions - which are now pretty readily available - note how bad SL is when you don't have modifications on your attack. It's the same reason why expose is a bad card, 1 action for roughly -1 action. (+1 att = focus, -1 agi = -1focus ish) Not perfect. TLT is giving you a gunner effect ontop of its damage output - which essentially strips a token...

2 attack ships are great against 0 and 1 agi ships. they're decent vs 2 agi. -- TLT is really good at pushing out those agi 1 lower health and agi 2 ships, while being decent at hitting agi 3...

The old wave 1 rules are still true - att is the key to unlocking = agi defense. A small ship is likely to be destroyed or very damaged at the end of the opening round. Sure, we've pushed that up a little with accurate ordnance, and some extra attack tricks - but consider, since rebel aces - we've had access to 7 dice attacks. Aces brought opportunist. Wave 3 had jan ors, we've had expose since wave 2, torpedo's have been around forever. Phantom in wave four gave us one of only 2 real 4 attack ships in the game. But back in wave 1 - 3 , you pretty much had 1 action per ship. Now I fly lists with 3-5 actions per ship...

TL DR - its all in the actions and virtual action creep.

32 minutes ago, Ravncat said:

TL DR - its all in the actions and virtual action creep.

And the dial creep. As you hit on with the K4/Expertise builds, you can't do things like that unless you have an amazing dial.

Which is why Mindlink became a thing overnight once Scum suddenly had 3 ships with ridiculously good dials.

Jumping the Shark would be releasing Marvel character wacky racers style ships that are tournament legal just because Disney owns the rights. It would be making Mickey Mouse a PS 15 pilot with a range 5 turret and also he shoots real marbles and ships he knocks down are destroyed.

4 minutes ago, Jetfire said:

Jumping the Shark would be releasing Marvel character wacky racers style ships that are tournament legal just because Disney owns the rights. It would be making Mickey Mouse a PS 15 pilot with a range 5 turret and also he shoots real marbles and ships he knocks down are destroyed.

COOOOOOOOL!

I would actually be kind of down with that as a jokey release.

Jumping the shark would be Ewok Gliders.

3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Now, you can argue with me blah blah that the swarm showed up at this tourney and that tourney.

THIS!!! A small presence or just a few top 32(with no win...) doesnt mean a ship is fine. It's funny but just a couple of post after you someone said:

3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

You're wrong about Firesprays, by the way. Double Firesprays have done well in a number of big tournaments recently, and came I think top32 at Euros.

Imperial Firesprays OTOH...

Does the ship have constant results? Does it win major events (or did it ever)? When you bring a squad with that ship, are you reducing your chances of winning?

4 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

To note, these are the ships that do not appear with any regularity in standard competitive play anymore from Wave 3:

Non-Biggs Xwings, Tie Fighters, Tie Adv (vader is not great in this meta either), HWK (poor thing), Tie Bomber (lol this ship exists??), Lambda (palp is severely not used), tie Ints (soontir is out-metaed), Firesprays, Bwings.

These ships make some appearances, but do not appear majorly: Ywings (TLT), Falcon, Awings (debatable)

Did I forget any?

This part needs a few corrections (all according to list juggler):

- Dont know if that counts since its a T70 xwing but Jess Pava is doing better than Biggs at the moment.

- Tie Fighters: the Imperial ones su/$"$ks but the rebel one is doing fine (this is a little ironic, dont you think?)

- HWK: Palob...

- TLT Ywing: no, just no. This ship has been a constant performer since the release of TLT.

From Wikipedia, which sums it up nicely: "Jumping the shark" is attempting to draw attention to or create publicity for something that is perceived as not warranting the attention, especially something that is believed to be past its peak in quality or relevance. " It's that moment when something goes downhill, never to recapture it's past glory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark

There are two factions it seems: those that have nostalgia for the film and enjoy the models and going pew pew and those that enjoy the 'crunch' of the game and list building and don't really care what piece of plastic is in front of them.

The problems arise when the two factions meet and the nostalgiacs get crushed by the crunchers.

Just now, BlodVargarna said:

There are two factions it seems: those that have nostalgia for the film and enjoy the models and going pew pew and those that enjoy the 'crunch' of the game and list building and don't really care what piece of plastic is in front of them.

The problems arise when the two factions meet and the nostalgiacs get crushed by the crunchers.

I resent the implication that it's not possible to be both.

3 hours ago, Lightrock said:

There are 6 players in each team. 2 per faction. No repeating of unique pilots or upgrades across the entire team. And no problems at all with that restriction. Sure, you could say that if it was 3 players per faction, the restriction would be more problematic. But that still wouldn't mean all 3 players per faction would want to play the same thing - just that they might want to share some upgrades or pilots.

Would have to ask the orgs about that. I'd expect the results will be posted somewhere. Don't know if there'll be any streams but I hope so!

Sounds just like the Outryder Cup! Except there's an Epic Round and 2 standard rounds.

6 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

... HWK (poor thing) ...

It really is a terrible ship. I'd be super embarrassed to be the designer (I'm talking about Star Wars fantasy, not the real designer of game mechanics). Who would even fly the thing? lol

That being said, I do love to troll my friends by running Torkil Mux

17 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I resent the implication that it's not possible to be both.

Agreed. Wedge/Horton/Cracken for instance has already won two SCs. If you have the right loadout and can pilot well enough, you can make almost any ship in this game competitive. The difference is the difficulty of doing so between, say, a Jumpmaster and a non-Biggs X-wing.

26 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

The difference is the difficulty of doing so between, say, a Jumpmaster and a non-Biggs X-wing.

Which is insane from a game balance perspective.

1 hour ago, Slugrage said:

From Wikipedia, which sums it up nicely: "Jumping the shark" is attempting to draw attention to or create publicity for something that is perceived as not warranting the attention, especially something that is believed to be past its peak in quality or relevance. " It's that moment when something goes downhill, never to recapture it's past glory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark

Yup. It's from the old television show, Happy Days. They had an episode where the Fonz, on water skis jumped a shark. Along with the wiki definition you posted, people tend to use it to say that something needs to stop or it's when something stopped making quality work (usually episodic entertainment).

8 hours ago, Ravncat said:

.....while there's been some increase in red dice - I think the action economy creep has been far more game bending in a bad direction.

Agreed, and I added a bit of my observations and opinion.

7 hours ago, Stevey86 said:

And the dial creep. As you hit on with the K4/Expertise builds, you can't do things like that unless you have an amazing dial.

Which is why Mindlink became a thing overnight once Scum suddenly had 3 ships with ridiculously good dials.

Yes!! You hit that nail on the head @Stevey86, What the h*** were the designers thinking giving clunky freighters better maneuverability than specifically designed military craft? Sure the protectorate should have a good dial, but clunky/weirdo Jumps and the Shadow-Star Trek-thingy? Nope. At best they should have a RAC dial.....

7 hours ago, Thormind said:

This part needs a few corrections (all according to list juggler):

- Dont know if that counts since its a T70 xwing but Jess Pava is doing better than Biggs at the moment.

- Tie Fighters: the Imperial ones su/$"$ks but the rebel one is doing fine (this is a little ironic, dont you think?)

- HWK: Palob...

- TLT Ywing: no, just no. This ship has been a constant performer since the release of TLT.

This.....this illuminates what a crappy state the game is in as far as iconic ships and their usability in 100/6 squads. Makes one wonder what the designers are thinking, they should stop worshiping the cartoon stuff.

4 hours ago, Djaskim609 said:

Yup. It's from the old television show, Happy Days. They had an episode where the Fonz, on water skis jumped a shark. Along with the wiki definition you posted, people tend to use it to say that something needs to stop or it's when something stopped making quality work (usually episodic entertainment).

Yes it was, and I remember watching the episode... in September 1977.

Well red dice creep is a thing but it has already arrived, so the whole jumping the shark you are about 2 hours at the end of Jaws.

Sure the average has also went up but back in the day a 7 red dice attack was extremely rare. You had to use stuff like Jan Ors in combination with outmaneuver and Advanced Proton Torpedoes. I guess there was a way to get up to 8 in Wave 6 but that was the maximum.

Now with Accretion there are more ways to add attack to a dice (i.e. Swarm Leader). Further more the dice maximum has been increased. Sure anything more than 5 is rare but I did see a ship eat a 9 red dice attack and die and it wasn't as complicated as Jan Ors APT and Outmaneuver at range 1.

So red dice creep has been around for a while now, where have you been?

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

....they should stop worshiping the cartoon stuff.

Cartoon worship creep is real.

15 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

There are two factions it seems: those that have nostalgia for the film and enjoy the models and going pew pew and those that enjoy the 'crunch' of the game and list building and don't really care what piece of plastic is in front of them.

The problems arise when the two factions meet and the nostalgiacs get crushed by the crunchers.

So true - Rebel/Imperial players are the nostalgic faction and Scum players are the crunchers

I just want blocking to ******* matter again. X/7 change was in the right direction. Mindlink is ridiculous. Nothing in this game should be rangless either.

The problem is that a lot of the blocking-resistant stuff (K4 security Droid, Concord Dawn Protector, Attani Mindlink) is concentrated in one faction......and often in the same squad. You can regularly find all three of the above in a generic "netlist".

But yes, I agree on the dial creep - and that's not just scum; giving the Falcon white segnor's loops (HotR Millenium Falcon + Kanan Jarrus) was a hell of a jump in capability. Granted, that was at least paired with an ability which requires you to point the ship at your opponent.

TIE/x7 turning back into an action rather than a free token was a godsend from the perspective of those of us with sharks (sorry, TIE swarms).

Back when I started playing people were jumping maybe one shark every few games. Last store champs I went to; the winning guy jumped a total of 47 sharks throughout just one game. The shark creep is real.