2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Fenn is outright broken

This has been argued many times. There's a very strong argument that he's at least a point undercosted, even ignoring the efficiency savings of Mindlink.

10 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

This has been argued many times. There's a very strong argument that he's at least a point undercosted, even ignoring the efficiency savings of Mindlink.

I'm sure we can agree that Fenn (and other cards) are on a different level of powercreep than cruise missiles. Which are not easy to use. Several ships need a good reason to use them over prockets. Which I've never seen decried as powercreep actually.

edit: several ships means of course the 3 agi ones, so Awing, Advanced, ATP and Defender. And Scyk, but yeah...

1 hour ago, Hujoe Bigs said:

You would think for continuity due to world wide simultaneous releases now, the stores would adopt the same mentality. But to each their own, I guess, even if it means their lose.

Most of the UK events I've seen are applying the 11 day rule to Wave 11. I'm personally all for new stuff as soon as possible, but there does seem to be more of an expected lead in time to new products being tournament legal in the UK.

5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I'm sure we can agree that Fenn (and other cards) are on a different level of powercreep than cruise missiles. Which are not easy to use. Several ships need a good reason to use them over prockets. Which I've never seen decried as powercreep actually.

As I've said (possibly elsewhere) I really don't think they are power creep at all. FIVE DICE WITHOUT SPENDING THE LOCK is a huge deal but I've actually tried them, and getting them up to 5 dice is definitely very difficult. Getting them to FOUR dice is non-trivial, and getting that perfect 5 dice with focus and lock shot is next to impossible. I've gone several games where they've been worse than my primary weapon, and that's using bombers and punishers...

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

As I've said (possibly elsewhere) I really don't think they are power creep at all. FIVE DICE WITHOUT SPENDING THE LOCK is a huge deal but I've actually tried them, and getting them up to 5 dice is definitely very difficult. Getting them to FOUR dice is non-trivial, and getting that perfect 5 dice with focus and lock shot is next to impossible. I've gone several games where they've been worse than my primary weapon, and that's using bombers and punishers...

What about defenders? The 4k into a 5dice attack should be relatively easy (as this one always happens anyway). It's just so very expensive...

My other thought is about (the increasingly rare) inquisitor: he liked prockets to force opponents into range 2 and punish range 1. So would you ever take CM instead?

I'll most likely try my Awing quartett with 2 cruise missiles instead of prockets, but I don't expect it to be good

10 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

What about defenders? The 4k into a 5dice attack should be relatively easy (as this one always happens anyway). It's just so very expensive...

My other thought is about (the increasingly rare) inquisitor: he liked prockets to force opponents into range 2 and punish range 1. So would you ever take CM instead?

I'll most likely try my Awing quartett with 2 cruise missiles instead of prockets, but I don't expect it to be good

Then you're playing a TIE/D and making a not-a-cannon-then-primary shot, or you're not using one of the titles at all and that's terrible.

Quiz doesn't want Cruise particularly, but other TAPs (lol) do.

4 A Wings, 2 Cruise 2 Procket seems like a solid setup actually. Stagger your approach so they can't get past the procket ones without eating Cruise, and they can't avoid the Cruise without sucking Prockets. As with anything Cruise though it'll take huge amounts of practice to get right.

also comparing one of the first ordnance with the newest.

Quite frankly, ordnance is overpriced as hell. Still technically is, but thanks to gchips and EMs its been mitigated for proper ordnance carriers atleast.
I kinda wish they went a different route with them. Base price is cheap so the random torp/missile actually does something, but a mod that improves the damage (or damage odds) thats only available for the proper ordnance carriers (i.e. have torps AND missiles, possibly with no more than 2 attack value)

But, sadly, with the existence of EM and Gchips that wont happen.

If ordnance in the very beginning were uber cheap (basically a flat -2cost to a minimum of 0) and gchips/em wasnt a thing, ordnance probably wouldnt have been considered trash until recently.

9 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

4 A Wings, 2 Cruise 2 Procket seems like a solid setup actually. Stagger your approach so they can't get past the procket ones without eating Cruise, and they can't avoid the Cruise without sucking Prockets. As with anything Cruise though it'll take huge amounts of practice to get right.

I flew them for a while as SnapCrackle variant. 2 snapshot juke, 2 snapshot crackshot prockets, worked quite well. They all had autothrusters though.

I can see a SnapCrackle CM/Procket or maybe even Intensity(?)Crackle CM/Procket without AT working. The finger four helps in flying them with two up close to block/procket, and 2 in the back. I already did that anyway.

Like I posted elsewhere I think CR can be great, on the right ship. So for example a Crack addict Tomax with EM, LRS, and Cruise comes in at 30 points. if you need to fill a list and only have said 30 points available I will take this all day. Also I do not go into this with any expectation to throw 5 dice. With the exception of Tomax I do not see myself putting CR on a ship that has a primary less than 3 (Tie /SF with SpecOps included) this way i have a very dangerous missile that will grant me at least a 4 dice attack with a TL to spare, if i have to roll slow and only do a 2 speed move well I roll 3 dice naturally, and if rolling 2 forward to stay in range 2-3 to fire the missile well that means i should go with a 3 or 4 speed anyway and get the 4 dice attack from my primary.

4 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

also comparing one of the first ordnance with the newest.

Advanced Homing Missiles came in wave 7. Not sure I would call it one of the first ordnance. It was released alongside Plasma Torps, an upgrade that is perhaps the best firing ordnance in the game, and after Homing Missiles if I recall correctly.

Missiles and torpedoes are one of many of FFG's design spaces that show their wild inconsistency in appropriate pricing (this is taking into account their value after chips, munitions and LRS released).

Bad- APTs, AHMs, assault missiles, ion pulse

Good- Homing, plasmas, prockets, protons, tracers

the rest are kind of niche or priced tough, but that honestly should be what every missile/torp is in my opinion, since you go too far on one end, they are everywhere and killing things in the first round of combat, or you go the other way, they are nowhere and useless cards. Best to have them fit in small spots and only there. I think Cruise Missiles do this well, so I'm happy to see them in the game.

4 Z-95's with Cruise and 3 with Thread Tracers sounds pretty solid to me. Not easy to fly but you could get some work done. Expensive list to build though.

17 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

That's why I suspect it may do best on Z-95s; a missile-armed headhunter only has one shot in the tubes anyway, and as long as you can do a speed 3 move, it's a shot equivalent to a Concussion Missile or Homing missile for a point less. Actually getting a 5-dice perfect shot is something to be aspired to but rarely, I suspect, actually achieved.

There have been a few comments that it may work well as a second-strike weapon - something like a TIE/sf has a FCS to generate free locks, and a Segnor's loop fast enough to give you a 4-dice missile shot if you fail to launch on your approach.

I replaced the concussion on my z95 with the cruise for 5 games on vassal already. I think I'm sold on it. I did get the 5 dice off in one game, but only got 4 out of 5 hits after mods. But still 4 dice is very doable, and like you said it's a point cheaper than concussion AND is more likely to get 4 hits than concussion as well.

A concussion missile with chips has a 59.4% chance of getting all 4 hits/crits vs a (four dice) cruise missile with chips that has a 73.8% chance of getting 4 hits/crits.

And of course the added bonus of using that free point elsewhere in your list.

16 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

So if you see CM as power creep, then Fenn is outright broken

I've heard people suggest this. You'll note he is the single most competitively successful pilot in the recorded history of the game

He's not totally broken, but he is incredibly powerful for his cost.

Cruise Missiles will be awkward to use, because of that speed 4 attack run. I was actually wondering if Major Rhymer might do okay with them - because he can pull a speed 4 straight and not mind if he ends up at range 1 as a result. Plus lobbing the missiles at PS8.

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I've heard people suggest this. You'll note he is the single most competitively successful pilot in the recorded history of the game

He's not totally broken, but he is incredibly powerful for his cost.

Cruise Missiles will be awkward to use, because of that speed 4 attack run. I was actually wondering if Major Rhymer might do okay with them - because he can pull a speed 4 straight and not mind if he ends up at range 1 as a result. Plus lobbing the missiles at PS8.

He would do great with them, but he'd not stop being 2 to 3 points overcosted.