This...
Range 2, 3 dice
ATTACK (TARGET LOCK): Discard this card to perform this attack.
If this attack hits, deal 1 faceup Damage card to the defender. Then cancel all dice results.
Costs the same as this...
Range 2-3, 1 dice
ATTACK (TARGET LOCK): Discard this card to perform this attack. You may roll additional attack dice equal to the speed of the maneuver you executed this round, to a maximum of 4 additional dice.
It's like the old missiles and torpedoes were hilariously overcosted, or something.
and that there has been a game crippeling red dice creep.
And because the former is probably easier to set up a shot with.
The latter is better, but you need to do at least a speed 3 'attack run' for a decent effect, whilst speed 1 or 2 moves make it easier to get a shot with the AHMs.
I still don't think AHMs are especially good, but they do have their uses (primarily Lieutenant Blount and Major Rhymer).
Don't get me wrong; power creep is a real thing and Cruise Missiles are the new shiny. But I suspect that like Advanced Proton Torpedoes, the awkwardness of using them may mean they're not as good as people first assume.
7 minutes ago, Dwing said:and that there has been a game crippeling red dice creep.
Eh, it's an example of a bad upgrade and a good upgrade. I wouldn't say it's power creep when one example was so far beneath the power curve to start with.
Adv homing missiles might be one of the worst costed upgrades in the game. I've been running a custom card cost league on vassal, and in it, they cost 1 point. A few players have attempted to make them work, and all the instances I am aware of have seen very poor results. Why they are only range 2 is beyond me. They could even be rolling 5 dice and be range 2-3, and I'm still not sure they would be worth the 3 points.
1 minute ago, Magnus Grendel said:And because the former is probably easier to set up a shot with.
The latter is better, but you need to do at least a speed 3 'attack run' for a decent effect, whilst speed 1 or 2 moves make it easier to get a shot with the AHMs.
I still don't think AHMs are especially good, but they do have their uses (primarily Lieutenant Blount and Major Rhymer).
Don't get me wrong; power creep is a real thing and Cruise Missiles are the new shiny. But I suspect that like Advanced Proton Torpedoes, the awkwardness of using them may mean they're not as good as people first assume.
I'm pretty happy with where the cruise missiles are at. They're deadly if used correctly but require quite a bit of fore-thought and planning to utilise, plus it seems to me that it would be (this is conjecture not based on playtesting) pretty obvious to predict the target and how the shot will be set up.
They seem to take skill (or at least training) to use and are based of actual flying mixed with prediction of where enemies are moving. But yeah it is evidence of power creep.
Also, "Advanced" weapons tend to be awkward to use.
For a better comparison, look between Cruise Missiles (theoretical maximum 5 dice, requires target lock, Range 2-3 but restricts movement) and Proton Rockets (theoretical maximum 5 dice, requires focus, Range 1 but does not restrict movement) and I'd say they're a pretty good match in power.
3 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:Also, "Advanced" weapons tend to be awkward to use.
For a better comparison, look between Cruise Missiles (theoretical maximum 5 dice, requires target lock, Range 2-3 but restricts movement) and Proton Rockets (theoretical maximum 5 dice, requires focus, Range 1 but does not restrict movement) and I'd say they're a pretty good match in power.
And Plasma Torpedoes, which are just a reliable 4 die attack at range 2-3, with less mods, but with a much easier time of actually firing those four dice. People seem to be overestimating how easy Cruise Missiles are to use - in theory they're amazing, in practice I've had a few games with them recently and unless you get them fired off on the close, they're probably not doing much.
39 minutes ago, Dwing said:and that there has been a game crippeling red dice creep.
This is the main reason.
AHM suck. But cruise missiles is power creep. At the very least avg red dice creep in comp lists.
16 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:And Plasma Torpedoes, which are just a reliable 4 die attack at range 2-3, with less mods, but with a much easier time of actually firing those four dice. People seem to be overestimating how easy Cruise Missiles are to use - in theory they're amazing, in practice I've had a few games with them recently and unless you get them fired off on the close, they're probably not doing much.
Yeah but isn't that the point, high reward = high skill requirement and risk. It's hard to do and somewhat easy to predict and mess with but if you can pull it off than you can land your devastating attack.
It helps to bring the core game mechanics into the game and highlight maneuvering and player skill.
How has your playtesting gone? I'm interested to see how dials limit what it can do (having a three hard turn or bank and settling for a non optimum shot could be interesting with EM).
Mostly with Punishers and Bombers, and in every case I would have preferred Plasma. I got the legendary 5 die attack exactly once, without a focus token to go with it. I've not tried the big ones yet - Scurrgs and Vaksais - but I probably will once I've done with Store Champs this weekend.
Cruise Missiles are a difficult thing to make work. EVen to get 4 dice is non-trivial after the first engagement unless you fully break off and run for another pass - this seems to be the kind of gameplay FFG are pushing right now with Quinn Jast, Arc Caster, etc, but I'm really not sold on it - it's too easy to give your opponent safer shots when you're on the break off turns.
That's why I suspect it may do best on Z-95s; a missile-armed headhunter only has one shot in the tubes anyway, and as long as you can do a speed 3 move, it's a shot equivalent to a Concussion Missile or Homing missile for a point less. Actually getting a 5-dice perfect shot is something to be aspired to but rarely, I suspect, actually achieved.
There have been a few comments that it may work well as a second-strike weapon - something like a TIE/sf has a FCS to generate free locks, and a Segnor's loop fast enough to give you a 4-dice missile shot if you fail to launch on your approach.
27 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:Mostly with Punishers and Bombers, and in every case I would have preferred Plasma. I got the legendary 5 die attack exactly once, without a focus token to go with it. I've not tried the big ones yet - Scurrgs and Vaksais - but I probably will once I've done with Store Champs this weekend.
Cruise Missiles are a difficult thing to make work. EVen to get 4 dice is non-trivial after the first engagement unless you fully break off and run for another pass - this seems to be the kind of gameplay FFG are pushing right now with Quinn Jast, Arc Caster, etc, but I'm really not sold on it - it's too easy to give your opponent safer shots when you're on the break off turns.
Table try much respect.
6 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:Table try much respect.
Well, Vassal anyway. Actual physical table will be next week, this week is practicing for Store Champs.
But if my Store Champs list had 3 points spare in it instead of two I would probably be including it on Quickdraw if it was legal.
All this talk about the amount of red dice, and an IoncannonBrobots win a Store championship few days ago...
..what are we talking about?
1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:Well, Vassal anyway. Actual physical table will be next week, this week is practicing for Store Champs.
But if my Store Champs list had 3 points spare in it instead of two I would probably be including it on Quickdraw if it was legal.
For store championship, stuff is legal upon release.
19 minutes ago, Cerve said:All this talk about the amount of red dice, and an IoncannonBrobots win a Store championship few days ago...
..what are we talking about?
What you are referering to there is most likely #COUNTERMETA ...
..the rest of us are talking about #REDDICEPOWERCREEP
10 minutes ago, Hujoe Bigs said:For store championship, stuff is legal upon release.
For Store Championships, it's up to the store
29 minutes ago, Sciencius said:What you are referering to there is most likely #COUNTERMETA ...
..the rest of us are talking about #REDDICEPOWERCREEP
No I'm talking about #REDDICEPOWERCREEPDOESN'THELPTOWIN
2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:Mostly with Punishers and Bombers, and in every case I would have preferred Plasma. I got the legendary 5 die attack exactly once, without a focus token to go with it. I've not tried the big ones yet - Scurrgs and Vaksais - but I probably will once I've done with Store Champs this weekend.
Cruise Missiles are a difficult thing to make work. EVen to get 4 dice is non-trivial after the first engagement unless you fully break off and run for another pass - this seems to be the kind of gameplay FFG are pushing right now with Quinn Jast, Arc Caster, etc, but I'm really not sold on it - it's too easy to give your opponent safer shots when you're on the break off turns.
I've been trying TIE Bombers with Cruise Missiles a little on Vassal as well. The big advantage they have over Plasmas, I think, is that they don't spend the lock. This gives additional flexibility to subsequent turns.
You can counter a meta and win. But in normal play, it sucks to be the guy that just so happened to bring the nail to your hammer list. Advocating flying fun lists is great, but being a player that normally play fun quirky lists, the gap has never been bigger I fell. I bring a fun list, half the nice guys in the local store practice for the next tournament... Well the fun is just out of the game, as you get oneshotted of can't scratch the powerbuilds out there. I have not really played the last couple of months because of this.
1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:For Store Championships, it's up to the store
No, it isn't.
Relaxed and Formal Tier tournaments: All product is legal in North America upon the product's official release. (Includes Store and Regional Championships)
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/op/legality/
That's like saying a store can use which ever FAQ it wants. That's a quick way to lose any future store championships and any possibility to regionals.
See the words 'in North America'?
Yeah, not everyone is.
Just now, thespaceinvader said:See the words 'in North America'?
Yeah, not everyone is.
You would think for continuity due to world wide simultaneous releases now, the stores would adopt the same mentality. But to each their own, I guess, even if it means their lose.
5 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:This is the main reason.
AHM suck. But cruise missiles is power creep. At the very least avg red dice creep in comp lists.
I don't think CM is power creep. You can use them once, after a difficult 4-5 straight or 4-5 kturn setup into range 2-3 but still getting a TL, and that's relatively easily avoided.
Compare this to infinite-procket-Fenn. He gets that every single turn, and his amazing dial+actions make it quite easy to stay in range 1. He even gets defensive boni and rerolls!
So if you see CM as power creep, then Fenn is outright broken