12 hours ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Yep.

So they'll show up to an event on occasion and feed everyone wins. That will be fun for them.

You understand that the vast majority of X-Wing players will never play in a tournament, right?

2 minutes ago, SOTL said:

You understand that the vast majority of X-Wing players will never play in a tournament, right?

Yep. So what does list building advice from a System Open Champion do for them?

28 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Yep. So what does list building advice from a System Open Champion do for them?

I mean we could drag a hobo in from the street to do it, if you like?

Why is there an assumption that a System Open Champion is only qualified to write about tournament play? I mean you're not a writer but you seem to be qualified to criticise what people have written.

4 hours ago, SOTL said:

You understand that the vast majority of X-Wing players will never play in a tournament, right?

4 hours ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Yep. So what does list building advice from a System Open Champion do for them?

It gives them a starting point. Plus, who should author an article like this? Just because you are an expert does mean you can't give basic advice.

4 hours ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

1.) I show up to a tournament. There are a few new players, but mostly experienced players with good lists. I'm not handicapping myself.

2.) Why do you need squad building advice just to play casual games? What for? You're playing for fun, not to win, right?

3.) Then after a few matches they'll be up to speed and will be able to hold their own, like the Death Rey and Heaver's Lunch player at my FLGS. Instead of wasting their money on some garbage list first.

But of course, giving new players the best chance to succeed is a foreign concept to you. Better to use trickery to get them in the game, set them up to fail, and then blame their failure on awful curbstomping tournament players playing the new meta hotness for their narrow minded 100/6 game mode instead of the poor advice you gave them.

I want playing this game to be fun for new players. I understand how harsh this game's meta can be, so I want new players that show up to the FLGS to have a fighting chance.

This is all pretty damned arrogant. Casual players don't play to lose, and a little knowledge in list building can help them have a good time instead of fumbling in the dark. What they do with the article is up to them, and your assumption that the article should be about getting a player on the road to tournament greatness is a both a disservice to getting new people to play this game and a wedge between the filthy casuals and the WAACs.

You say you want this game to be fun for new players, but clearly only in the way you consider "appropriate" for XWM play.

Everyone here wants new players to have a good time. I think we can agree the list in the article won't hold up in a tournament, possibly leading to a bad time, particularly if the new player feels their money was misspent. But the new player may not be going to a tournament.

What we need to consider, then, is the likely 'meta' they'll face in their kitchen table or casual store games. What do you guys play at your kitchen table or store night? How well would the list in the article hold up there? (This is a genuine question; I'm still pretty new myself.)

I'm more experienced with Magic: The Gathering. There I found that the judgement, 'this deck won't get you anywhere on the Pro Tour, but it might win you some games at Friday Night Magic,' didn't hold up because many players at that low-key store event actually played the decks from the Pro Tour. If something similar is the case at your local store, I'd say the list in the article should be fairly criticized for setting new players up to fail. If that's not the case locally, the article can't be criticized because it's setting the new player up to have as good a shot as his learning level of experience allows (unless it's still not up to snuff).

So, what do you play locally? How good a shot does this list have against what you play?

I've said this before, and it bears repeating. You and your opponent should agree on what kind of game you will play: tournament practice, or casual fun. If all you own is an X-wing 101 squad, you shouldn't be expected to face Parattani, or Dash Miranda. And frankly, tournament players are often more than happy to put some ships on the table that they don't usually get to fly in a highly competitive environment.

I mean, the new player is probably still going to lose, but they'll have fun as they slowly pick up skills and strategies for this game.

Sometimes I like taking 101 squads against strong tournament squads just to see how good I can do, so I'll go up against tier 1 squads, but it doesn't always end well.

8 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

I've said this before, and it bears repeating. You and your opponent should agree on what kind of game you will play: tournament practice, or casual fun. If all you own is an X-wing 101 squad, you shouldn't be expected to face Parattani, or Dash Miranda. And frankly, tournament players are often more than happy to put some ships on the table that they don't usually get to fly in a highly competitive environment.

I mean, the new player is probably still going to lose, but they'll have fun as they slowly pick up skills and strategies for this game.

Sometimes I like taking 101 squads against strong tournament squads just to see how good I can do, so I'll go up against tier 1 squads, but it doesn't always end well.

100%. I left out changing lists to suit your opponent to be more concise, but I agree this is the sort of conversation players and play-groups should be having.

Core set + 4x Sienar Specialist w/ LWF & TLT would be an easier list to fly for a noob, comes in under $101 as well, should destroy the article's list, and would promote their new product. Not sure why they didn't just go with that. It might even do well in a tournament.

You may be right about these TIE Aggressors, but X-wing 101 is less about building a good squad, and more about building a good collection that still has a playable 100 point squad. I think the author even mentioned that one requirement he was given was buying unique packs, so no duplicates. If a new player bought 4 Aggressors, there's not much he can do to change up his squad with what he has.

That's why @SaltMaster 5000 's Imperial Veterans suggestion is so good: there's a whole different ship that can be swapped in for a completely different experience. Unsurprisingly, lots of people came up with this idea in the X-wing 101 topic in the Squad Building forums a few months back. It's quite possibly the best X-wing 101 purchase plan out there. Some people just would rather not fly defenders and TIE/fo's.

I think the designers realize that top squads have upgrades from all over the place, so it's no small feat to get a workable squad without breaking the bank, which is part of the challenge, and the fun, of X-wing 101. That, and building a diverse collection with lots of options.

1 hour ago, Parakitor said:

I've said this before, and it bears repeating. You and your opponent should agree on what kind of game you will play: tournament practice, or casual fun. If all you own is an X-wing 101 squad, you shouldn't be expected to face Parattani, or Dash Miranda. And frankly, tournament players are often more than happy to put some ships on the table that they don't usually get to fly in a highly competitive environment.

I mean, the new player is probably still going to lose, but they'll have fun as they slowly pick up skills and strategies for this game.

Sometimes I like taking 101 squads against strong tournament squads just to see how good I can do, so I'll go up against tier 1 squads, but it doesn't always end well.

Of course. I would love to fly the 3 E-Wings I have. If I could get the days off, I would love to show up to the HOTAC night.

But for any sort of tournament, I simply can't go down to a new players level and throw Sabine pilot, Ten Numb, and Nien Numb down on the table with some random assortment of upgrade cards. I need to be able to deal with Dengar Asajj, not just splat on its windshield and go 0-200.

Darth Meanie doesn't understand that I'd like for there to not be such a rift between casual and competitive play. I'd like for the game to be balanced better such that 3 Kirahxzs and 2 Z-95's won't be turned into pink mist. But there is too much power creep 11 waves in. So in order to make competitive play more welcoming to new/casual players, the only real way to do this is to give them the proper tools to compete.

Earlier in this game's life, it was much simpler, "buy 4 B-Wings or 7-8 TIE Fighters". Now it's much more complex, in order to make multiple A-Wings competitive you need a dizzying array of expansion sets. In order to make Scum competitive, you need 2 Jumpmasters for enough Attanni Mindlink cards, and some Punishers for Extra Munitions, etc.

New players need proper guidance. They do not need to first blow $100 (well $60 because a Core Set is necessary either way) on a squad that's made out of paper mache. That's just dishonesty.

There was a guy in our playgroup a few years ago that wanted to play nothing but A-Wings. So that's what he did, he flew what he loved. And he faced nothing but large base PWT's. And now he doesn't play the game anymore. I wonder why that is.

3 hours ago, Joe Censored said:

Core set + 4x Sienar Specialist w/ LWF & TLT would be an easier list to fly for a noob, comes in under $101 as well, should destroy the article's list, and would promote their new product. Not sure why they didn't just go with that. It might even do well in a tournament.

This article was probably written well before, and TIE/ag wasn't on the options list.

2 hours ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Of course. I would love to fly the 3 E-Wings I have. If I could get the days off, I would love to show up to the HOTAC night.

But for any sort of tournament, I simply can't go down to a new players level and throw Sabine pilot, Ten Numb, and Nien Numb down on the table with some random assortment of upgrade cards. I need to be able to deal with Dengar Asajj, not just splat on its windshield and go 0-200.

Darth Meanie doesn't understand that I'd like for there to not be such a rift between casual and competitive play. I'd like for the game to be balanced better such that 3 Kirahxzs and 2 Z-95's won't be turned into pink mist. But there is too much power creep 11 waves in. So in order to make competitive play more welcoming to new/casual players, the only real way to do this is to give them the proper tools to compete.

Earlier in this game's life, it was much simpler, "buy 4 B-Wings or 7-8 TIE Fighters". Now it's much more complex, in order to make multiple A-Wings competitive you need a dizzying array of expansion sets. In order to make Scum competitive, you need 2 Jumpmasters for enough Attanni Mindlink cards, and some Punishers for Extra Munitions, etc.

New players need proper guidance. They do not need to first blow $100 (well $60 because a Core Set is necessary either way) on a squad that's made out of paper mache. That's just dishonesty.

There was a guy in our playgroup a few years ago that wanted to play nothing but A-Wings. So that's what he did, he flew what he loved. And he faced nothing but large base PWT's. And now he doesn't play the game anymore. I wonder why that is.

The real rift is between Waves 1-4 and the rest of the game. Unfortunately, most people get into this game because it is SW. If they put together a 101 list of Defenders and Aggressors, even if they are better ships in the game, they are not going to attract new players. New Imperial prospectives are going to want to see a game filled with Eyeballs, Squints, an Lambda shuttles.

If they don't see Star Wars, they won't buy the game. And if they never buy the game, it will never matter how *** their first list is.

It's not dishonesty, it's an introduction. No one in their right mind is going to buy a new game and walk into a store championship with it the next day. If they spend $100 and like the game, they can spend the next $100 getting better hotness.