45 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Telling new players that it's a good idea to run Howlrunner, 2 Academy Pilots, Carnor, and Pure Sabacc is setting them up to fail. If they follow this course of action and show up to a local tournament, they will get annihilated. This is just fact.

I think you and many others are missing the point of the 101 articles. It is not "make a super competitive list with $101" because that is near impossible, although Nands came **** close.

The point is to give newish players an idea of ships to buy to make a fun and decently good list with a small budget. If a new player took Rau Boats, or Old ManFenn, or even Parattanni to a local tournament, they would still get crushed. I've seen Dengar/Tel lists go 1-4 and 2-3 at store champs because people dont know how to fly it. Top lists still require flying. I've 100-0 Parattanni with Kbomber/Ahsoka/Snap Wexley because it wasn't flown right.

New players use crap like Marksmanship, Expose, Calculation, etc. etc. The 101 articles steer them in the right direction.

25 minutes ago, wurms said:

I think you and many others are missing the point of the 101 articles. It is not "make a super competitive list with $101" because that is near impossible, although Nands came **** close.

The point is to give newish players an idea of ships to buy to make a fun and decently good list with a small budget. If a new player took Rau Boats, or Old ManFenn, or even Parattanni to a local tournament, they would still get crushed. I've seen Dengar/Tel lists go 1-4 and 2-3 at store champs because people dont know how to fly it. Top lists still require flying. I've 100-0 Parattanni with Kbomber/Ahsoka/Snap Wexley because it wasn't flown right.

New players use crap like Marksmanship, Expose, Calculation, etc. etc. The 101 articles steer them in the right direction.

With player skill and luck being equal, the better list will win. A new player with Rau boats at least has a chance, a new player with the list in the article has zero chance to win.

Instead of crap like Marksmanship, Expose, and Calculation, they'll instead use Academy pilots, Interceptors without Autothrusters, and rely completely upon full health Pure Sabacc. What an upgrade.

The list is not decently good. It's C in an A, A+, S tier meta.

14 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

With player skill and luck being equal, the better list will win. A new player with Rau boats at least has a chance, a new player with the list in the article has zero chance to win.

Instead of crap like Marksmanship, Expose, and Calculation, they'll instead use Academy pilots, Interceptors without Autothrusters, and rely completely upon full health Pure Sabacc. What an upgrade.

The list is not decently good. It's C in an A, A+, S tier meta.

It's C, it's declared as C, it's intended to be C.

Hehe,

An article for entry level, casual players, gets trashed by people that go to tourneys. I've still never been to one...

I enjoyed the article and would guide interested parties to it to get an idea but...

I do have one BIG complaint:

You can't get an original core set for love nor money at the moment, in the UK at least, and it looks like that ain't gonna change in the short term.

Which nullifies the thrust of the article. They should have put it on the back burner for a few months (or used FOs) until it's possible to get all the ships...

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

It's C, it's declared as C, it's intended to be C.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

It's C, it's declared as C, it's intended to be C.

Which means you're intending new players to play sub-par lists. That's setting them up to fail.

14 hours ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

This article is bad. It's just a puff piece meant to lure players into the game by being dishonest or misleading. You will not get far in this game if you, "Fly what you love"

Get far? What do you mean by, "Get far?" There's no global ranking system, and tournaments aren't necessarily the end goal here. The idea is to have fun playing a game at your kitchen table, or maybe at a store with a few guys that know you're just starting out, and want to help you get the most of your X-wing experience.

4 hours ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

I'm saying that your type of optimism-at-all-costs attitude and the one in the article convinces newbies that it's okay to make bad decisions and throw themselves into a meat grinder.

What meat grinder?! Look, I can see that you are interested in the tournament scene, and are probably devouring any information you can get about the metagame to put you in the best position to win. I did that for a few seasons. I got tired of it. I'm going to hazard a guess: either you've never played missions, or you didn't enjoy it. Tournaments are great, and they get the most attention in this game, but there is so much more.

When I started playing X-wing, there were only 4 ships to choose from. I bought a bunch of them and tried all sorts of combinations. And each wave I bought a few more ships, and tried out new stuff. Nowadays, there are so many ships to choose from, it's fun to see some ideas of where to get started to build a 100 point squad without breaking the bank for new players.

1 hour ago, Larky Bobble said:

An article for entry level, casual players, gets trashed by people that go to tourneys.

Yeah, there is clearly a disconnect.

33 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Which means you're intending new players to play sub-par lists. That's setting them up to fail.

No, it's introducing them to the game. They can buy more ships when they have more disposable income to spend, but $101 is a reasonable amount of money to spend and start playing 100 point squads.

Actually, would you like to post your suggestion for a $101 squad? I'd be interested to see what kind of awesome tournament squad you could come up with for $101.

9 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

No, it's introducing them to the game. They can buy more ships when they have more disposable income to spend, but $101 is a reasonable amount of money to spend and start playing 100 point squads.

Actually, would you like to post your suggestion for a $101 squad? I'd be interested to see what kind of awesome tournament squad you could come up with for $101.

Core set - 40

Imp Vets - 70

Defender - 85

FO -100

Ryad, Vessery, Omega Leader.

The article even then states that you're going to get a starviper for Autothrusters as a probable next purchase. Then it's pretty balanced as a force (pun not intended). Apart from that black and white elephant on your shelf! But hey, at that point you're hooked so what do they care? One Guns for Hire, and you've got a good fun Scum base to play off (especially with the mods in Imp Vets). VIPERS RULE!

Way better this than an article listing the T1 netlists and what expansions you need to buy to be able to play what is hot today ! This game still has a learning curve, irrespective of how good scum is at present, and by the time the new player gets good... There's a new hotness and they're losing to it.

Shame scum will never get a 101 article... Will they?

On 11 de julio de 2017 at 6:27 PM, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Core set - 40

Imp Vets - 70

Defender - 85

FO -100

Ryad, Vessery, Omega Leader.

Not bad, should stomp fellow beginners... But at least a few upgrades away from being T 1.5

29 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

Get far? What do you mean by, "Get far?" There's no global ranking system, and tournaments aren't necessarily the end goal here. The idea is to have fun playing a game at your kitchen table, or maybe at a store with a few guys that know you're just starting out, and want to help you get the most of your X-wing experience.

What meat grinder?! Look, I can see that you are interested in the tournament scene, and are probably devouring any information you can get about the metagame to put you in the best position to win. I did that for a few seasons. I got tired of it. I'm going to hazard a guess: either you've never played missions, or you didn't enjoy it. Tournaments are great, and they get the most attention in this game, but there is so much more.

When I started playing X-wing, there were only 4 ships to choose from. I bought a bunch of them and tried all sorts of combinations. And each wave I bought a few more ships, and tried out new stuff. Nowadays, there are so many ships to choose from, it's fun to see some ideas of where to get started to build a 100 point squad without breaking the bank for new players.

Yeah, there is clearly a disconnect.

30 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

Get far? What do you mean by, "Get far?" There's no global ranking system, and tournaments aren't necessarily the end goal here. The idea is to have fun playing a game at your kitchen table, or maybe at a store with a few guys that know you're just starting out, and want to help you get the most of your X-wing experience.

What meat grinder?! Look, I can see that you are interested in the tournament scene, and are probably devouring any information you can get about the metagame to put you in the best position to win. I did that for a few seasons. I got tired of it. I'm going to hazard a guess: either you've never played missions, or you didn't enjoy it. Tournaments are great, and they get the most attention in this game, but there is so much more.

When I started playing X-wing, there were only 4 ships to choose from. I bought a bunch of them and tried all sorts of combinations. And each wave I bought a few more ships, and tried out new stuff. Nowadays, there are so many ships to choose from, it's fun to see some ideas of where to get started to build a 100 point squad without breaking the bank for new players.

Yeah, there is clearly a disconnect.

What is the point of squad building advice for playing kitchen table games or missions or playing pickup games at the FLGS?

What this article suggests is that this is a half decent list that will give you a decent chance for a reasonable price, and that the game is balanced around $101 squads. It's not.

If I or others at the FLGS faced this list, the player would go 0-3. Between Quickdraw Vessery OL, Mynock Special, Heaver's Lunch, tripleshot Bossk + IGB, etc.

The article list would have no chance against any of those.

12 minutes ago, Larky Bobble said:

Not bad, should stomp fellow beginners... But at least a few upgrades away from being T 1.5

13 minutes ago, Larky Bobble said:

Not bad, should stomp fellow beginners... But at least a few upgrades away from being T 1.5

Eh, still better than the article list. Not sure what EPT and mod choices you'd have for your Defenders. Outmaneuver? Predator? A Crackshot or two? Not bad.

24 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

What is the point of squad building advice for playing kitchen table games or missions or playing pickup games at the FLGS?

What this article suggests is that this is a half decent list that will give you a decent chance for a reasonable price, and that the game is balanced around $101 squads. It's not.

The article doesn't suggest that.

Besides, before people like you arrived at the game there was a great community with players that helped each other learning the game, not taking out their top meta lists but instead having fun with other stuff and trying to adjust to newer players that show up with a C list for $101.

Why would you ever curbstomp the list from the article? To feel good ?

46 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The article doesn't suggest that.

Besides, before people like you arrived at the game there was a great community with players that helped each other learning the game, not taking out their top meta lists but instead having fun with other stuff and trying to adjust to newer players that show up with a C list for $101.

Why would you ever curbstomp the list from the article? To feel good ?

Because I'm in a tournament and I'm there to do my best. Bringing the best tools for the job gives me the best chance. There will be other players that are just as good, some better than me.

I don't want to be like the Austrians in 1866, stuck with muzzle loading rifles. I want to be like the Prussians, lying prone with 5 times the rate of fire. I don't want to be on the receiving end of a curbstomp, so I need to play the best list possible to the best if my ability.

I can't control who I get paired up with. If I get paired up with the guy who brought 3 Kirahxzs and 2 Z-95s, I have no choice but to curbstomp him. I can't change my list to match his in a Store Championship.

@SaltMaster 5000 , I can see you probably will never understand the other point of view, but picture this:

A man just got out of grad school and has his first real career job. He has a wife and two small children, and a lot more student loan debt than he'd like. A friend from work invites him over to play a game, and although he's pretty busy, he agrees. It turns out the game is X-wing, and the man has more fun than he ever expected to have playing a "board game". It's the perfect mix of engaging rules, and that nostalgia of Star Wars that he loved as a kid.

Over the next few days, he can't stop thinking about this game. His friend tells him that a bunch of people bring their collections to a local game store to play together every week. He doesn't have a lot of free time, and not a lot of discretionary funds to spend on games, but he decides he wants to give it a try. Then he discovers that there are 10 waves of ships with ~40 expansion packs!

The X-wing 101 articles are for people like this (there are more than you'd think!). We don't have a whole lot of money to buy tons of ships, and we usually spend Saturdays doing family things, rather than tournaments. We really only get to play once a week at game nights, with an occasional store tournament here and there throughout the year. The hard core tournament players already know how to look up winning squads and figure out how to win. Guys like us are in it as much for the nostalgia as for the competition, and there aren't a whole lot of resources for that crowd. These articles provide suggestions that people can ponder as various ships are showcased. I don't think anybody will seriously buy exactly the ships on a 101 article to fly that squad, but it serves as a good source of inspiration. People probably won't do well at tournaments with these squads, but they can learn a lot about the game by putting a variety of ships on the table for just $101.

I'm new to this internet stuff...but isn't the guy with 13 of his 14 posts being all stupid and argumentative PLUS having the word salt right there in his name what they call the obvious troll obvious guy?

1 hour ago, Parakitor said:

@SaltMaster 5000 , I can see you probably will never understand the other point of view, but picture this:

A man just got out of grad school and has his first real career job. He has a wife and two small children, and a lot more student loan debt than he'd like. A friend from work invites him over to play a game, and although he's pretty busy, he agrees. It turns out the game is X-wing, and the man has more fun than he ever expected to have playing a "board game". It's the perfect mix of engaging rules, and that nostalgia of Star Wars that he loved as a kid.

Over the next few days, he can't stop thinking about this game. His friend tells him that a bunch of people bring their collections to a local game store to play together every week. He doesn't have a lot of free time, and not a lot of discretionary funds to spend on games, but he decides he wants to give it a try. Then he discovers that there are 10 waves of ships with ~40 expansion packs!

The X-wing 101 articles are for people like this (there are more than you'd think!). We don't have a whole lot of money to buy tons of ships, and we usually spend Saturdays doing family things, rather than tournaments. We really only get to play once a week at game nights, with an occasional store tournament here and there throughout the year. The hard core tournament players already know how to look up winning squads and figure out how to win. Guys like us are in it as much for the nostalgia as for the competition, and there aren't a whole lot of resources for that crowd. These articles provide suggestions that people can ponder as various ships are showcased. I don't think anybody will seriously buy exactly the ships on a 101 article to fly that squad, but it serves as a good source of inspiration. People probably won't do well at tournaments with these squads, but they can learn a lot about the game by putting a variety of ships on the table for just $101.

And he finally gets some free time to show up to the FLGS. He shows up with his How to Fly 101 list that he blew his discretionary funds on and loses all of his game night games.

Listen, we have the same goals here. We want new players to enjoy the game and have fun. I just think it's more wise to be honest and give new players good squad building advice instead of letting them flounder with a crappy list they were allowed to build themselves, or one they were mislead to believe is a good list by a System Open Champion. That's not how you get new players into a game, with trickery and dishonesty.

You want to know what happened the last time I faced a BBBBZ player? He told me how excited he was to play it when he was paired with me at the local game night tournament and that he got it off the internet. Then I 200-0ed him with Commonwealth Defenders. Never saw him again. Probably because he spent all his discretionary funds on 4 B-Wings and a Z-95 just to feed someone with a good list a win.

Quote

I'm new to this internet stuff...but isn't the guy with 13 of his 14 posts being all stupid and argumentative PLUS having the word salt right there in his name what they call the obvious troll obvious guy?

Because the best way to arrive at the truth is to brand people who disagree with you as trolls and dismiss them, right?

Quote

Hehe,

An article for entry level, casual players, gets trashed by people that go to tourneys. I've still never been to one...

Because we want new players to enjoy the game and be able to show up on game night or tournament night and not automatically lose. We want more people to play this game and we want them to have a fighting chance. Telling them to fly a list like the one in the article because it's, "what they love" just means they will waste their money and lose all of their games.

A few months ago, there was a new player that showed up to the FLGS. Early on he switched to playing Rey and Jan Ors, and he started to win constantly. And after that, he switched to Heaver's Lunch and won even more often. He still plays Heaver's Lunch and is a pretty solid player.

This is because he had tools good enough to give him a fighting chance, not a list made out of 5 paper mache TIE Fighters.

But you still missed the point of the article. Fly what you like/enjoy from the SW universe was the premise, not fly to win...

This bloke says he loved Tie Ints, and quel surprise, he then says how to make an adequate beginner force to showcase his love.

One of the best things about this game is that entry cost is relatively low compared to other collectables games, and you can get efficient ship combos for a reasonable stab against the "beardies" (Old GW term for power gamers) that hunt for extreme efficiency and combos to help them win. As a GW employee twenty years ago we ran no tourneys and tried to get the beardies out the store as soon as we could; they scared away the type of person that this article is aimed at. When someone shows a love for elves or orcs or W/E and someone else walks over and says "you don't want to get them, they are sub par, buy X with Y to win" you lose the sale/new player. People don't invest in these games (initially) to win, they invest to have fun.

But you're obsessed with the tourney scene and seem incapable of seeing other scenarios in which people play, so I'm off.

Good article.

13 hours ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Telling new players that it's a good idea to run Howlrunner, 2 Academy Pilots, Carnor, and Pure Sabacc is setting them up to fail. If they follow this course of action and show up to a local tournament, they will get annihilated. This is just fact.

I couldn't find the word 'tournament' anywhere in the article after it finished introducing the author and he set the table that he wasn't discussing tournament play.

12 hours ago, Larky Bobble said:

Not bad, should stomp fellow beginners... But at least a few upgrades away from being T 1.5

But it's a solid foundation, with quite a bit of room for tweaking the exact defenders in question. It's vulnerable to a few lists out there, but still a list that demands respect from across the table.

A solid 100/101 list. I think I really do want to set up such a concept, now...

14 hours ago, Larky Bobble said:

An article for entry level, casual players, gets trashed by people that go to tourneys.

Two store tournaments in three years of playing. Just to frame my response and previous comment.

2 hours ago, Larky Bobble said:

Fly what you like/enjoy from the SW universe was the premise, not fly to win...

As a beginner I loved the idea of Interceptors. Then I played them. Crushed hopes and dreams. I would not recommend Interceptor aces to beginners. You need to be experienced to fly them. Trying to stick with the articles premise... I'd possibly say take an Alpha Squadron Pilot (or Sabre if we must have Imp Aces) with the Howlrunner swarm give opposing player a choice between Howl and the Alpha. Then use the Striker as a flanker. But really I'd say get Imp Vets and do Defenders for a much more forgiving entry to the game.

11 hours ago, Larky Bobble said:

But you still missed the point of the article. Fly what you like/enjoy from the SW universe was the premise, not fly to win...

This bloke says he loved Tie Ints, and quel surprise, he then says how to make an adequate beginner force to showcase his love.

One of the best things about this game is that entry cost is relatively low compared to other collectables games, and you can get efficient ship combos for a reasonable stab against the "beardies" (Old GW term for power gamers) that hunt for extreme efficiency and combos to help them win. As a GW employee twenty years ago we ran no tourneys and tried to get the beardies out the store as soon as we could; they scared away the type of person that this article is aimed at. When someone shows a love for elves or orcs or W/E and someone else walks over and says "you don't want to get them, they are sub par, buy X with Y to win" you lose the sale/new player. People don't invest in these games (initially) to win, they invest to have fun.

But you're obsessed with the tourney scene and seem incapable of seeing other scenarios in which people play, so I'm off.

Good article.

Yep.

So they'll show up to an event on occasion and feed everyone wins. That will be fun for them.

11 hours ago, SOTL said:

I couldn't find the word 'tournament' anywhere in the article after it finished introducing the author and he set the table that he wasn't discussing tournament play.

What is the point of squad building advice for games where winning doesn't matter at all then?

Why would you get a System Open Champion to write your article? Why not grab the intern that writes all the other mistake filled ones?

The article says that how you get from being a novice to a System Open Champion like Jeremy is to Fly What You Love(tm). It is implied that you could take this list to a tournament and have a decent shot.

On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 3:13 PM, SaltMaster 5000 said:

With player skill and luck being equal, the better list will win. A new player with Rau boats at least has a chance, a new player with the list in the article has zero chance to win.

Uh, these are 101 lists. The player has no skill.

On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 4:41 PM, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Which means you're intending new players to play sub-par lists. That's setting them up to fail.

Against players who are willing to. . .

On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 7:19 PM, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Because I'm in a tournament and I'm there to do my best. Bringing the best tools for the job gives me the best chance. There will be other players that are just as good, some better than me.

I don't want to be like the Austrians in 1866, stuck with muzzle loading rifles. I want to be like the Prussians, lying prone with 5 times the rate of fire. I don't want to be on the receiving end of a curbstomp , so I need to play the best list possible to the best if my ability.

I can't control who I get paired up with. If I get paired up with the guy who brought 3 Kirahxzs and 2 Z-95s, I have no choice but to curbstomp him. I can't change my list to match his in a Store Championship.

. . .a noobie, you are absolutely right.

On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 5:56 PM, SaltMaster 5000 said:

What is the point of squad building advice for playing kitchen table games or missions or playing pickup games at the FLGS?

What this article suggests is that this is a half decent list that will give you a decent chance for a reasonable price, and that the game is balanced around $101 squads. It's not.

The article list would have no chance against any of those.

Uh, cuz a lot of us play that way.

23 hours ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

And he finally gets some free time to show up to the FLGS. He shows up with his How to Fly 101 list that he blew his discretionary funds on and loses all of his game night games.

Listen, we have the same goals here. We want new players to enjoy the game and have fun.

Because we want new players to enjoy the game and be able to show up on game night or tournament night and not automatically lose. We want more people to play this game and we want them to have a fighting chance. Telling them to fly a list like the one in the article because it's, "what they love" just means they will waste their money and lose all of their games.

No, you want new players to show up their first night and be "list professionals" so that you can curbstomp them in some sort of legitimate fashion. Then, it's not cuz they have a *** list FFG made, but because SM5K is the better player.

It's a 101 class dude; Advanced Listbuilding is down the hall.

BTW, nice handle. . .seems to fit you well.

4 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Uh, these are 101 lists. The player has no skill.

Against players who are willing to. . .

. . .a noobie, you are absolutely right.

Uh, cuz a lot of us play that way.

No, you want new players to show up their first night and be "list professionals" so that you can curbstomp them in some sort of legitimate fashion. Then, it's not cuz they have a *** list FFG made, but because SM5K is the better player.

It's a 101 class dude; Advanced Listbuilding is down the hall.

BTW, nice handle. . .seems to fit you well.

1.) I show up to a tournament. There are a few new players, but mostly experienced players with good lists. I'm not handicapping myself.

2.) Why do you need squad building advice just to play casual games? What for? You're playing for fun, not to win, right?

3.) Then after a few matches they'll be up to speed and will be able to hold their own, like the Death Rey and Heaver's Lunch player at my FLGS. Instead of wasting their money on some garbage list first.

But of course, giving new players the best chance to succeed is a foreign concept to you. Better to use trickery to get them in the game, set them up to fail, and then blame their failure on awful curbstomping tournament players playing the new meta hotness for their narrow minded 100/6 game mode instead of the poor advice you gave them.

I want playing this game to be fun for new players. I understand how harsh this game's meta can be, so I want new players that show up to the FLGS to have a fighting chance.

4.) Advanced list building? You mean slapping x7 Defenders or Attanni Mindlink ships together?

5.) Of course, discredit me by pointing out what my username is. At least I don't encourage new players to waste their money and lose all of their games.