5 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Yoda would let his opponent destroy himself.

If Star Wars Chess on Sega CD is canon, then he would use his force powers to force his opponent to set the wrong maneuver, like he did when he got a Stormtrooper to blow his own head off.

Haha

3 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

The opponent did make the decision to call the judge, hoping/knowing there's only one possible outcome once the judge is called.

But ... !

It sounds to me like the opponent (the OP) flirted with Lawful Evil, and decided he didn't like it. IMO, that's commendable, and I'm glad he made the original post and followed along.

Almost right.... Yes I did make the decision to call the judge. I'm an inexperienced player myself and actually did not know if there was some kind of take back rule for obvious 1st turn mistakes. I had a goal that day of winning 2/4 matches, and was already at 1 loss, so wanted to win this match. As part of wanting to win this match my competitive side liked the idea of this becoming just his Fenn + Jumpmaster against my full list (triple T-65's), which as I mentioned before I thought would be a fair fight.

I wanted to give him every opportunity though, so I called the judge over. I was hoping for his sake the judge would rule he could correct the maneuver. That would satisfy my competitive side, as the judge's ruling would be final.

Now knowing everything, and reading what everyone else has said, I'd seriously consider just letting him flip to the other direction in this instance without calling for a judge.

I had no knowledge if my opponent was an experienced player or not, other than the 1 minute we played together. I'm certainly not an experienced player, having played roughly 20 games total.

Is it a little unfortunate that in not allowing him to change his dial, you prevented yourself from doing the very thing that you came to do (play a game of x wing)?

Is it the winning that you love, or the playing? No moral judgement either way, but if your decision left a bad taste in your mouth, then you most likely have your answer.

I would have let my opponent change his dial - you can always buy your alt art card and plastic tokens later, if that's your motivation.

*however* If you must win at all costs (And I kind of wish I had this attitude myself, I have lost tournament games due to allowing people to take forgotten actions/flip cards etc) then just take the 'Win at all costs' attitude and own it - no point beating yourself up over it. Anxiety and regret are bad for you

21 minutes ago, Bonza said:

Is it a little unfortunate that in not allowing him to change his dial, you prevented yourself from doing the very thing that you came to do (play a game of x wing)?
...

Allowing the ship to run away in no way prevented the game from continue. It may have made the situation much more difficult but it certainly didn't end it. It is only the "rage quit" that prevented the game from continuing.

After that concession I really would have suggested a "let's just see what could have happened" game where nothing is on the line anymore and the game was just for fun and to kill the time. The result would have no standing in the tournament but could satisfy an X-Wing desire. "But if you do that why not just allow the take back in the first place and then play the game?" You don't do that because then there are no consequence for the mistake that was made. Now that games are binary (win/lose) if you lose you lose.

47 minutes ago, Bonza said:

Is it a little unfortunate that in not allowing him to change his dial, you prevented yourself from doing the very thing that you came to do (play a game of x wing)?

Is it the winning that you love, or the playing? No moral judgement either way, but if your decision left a bad taste in your mouth, then you most likely have your answer.

I would have let my opponent change his dial - you can always buy your alt art card and plastic tokens later, if that's your motivation.

*however* If you must win at all costs (And I kind of wish I had this attitude myself, I have lost tournament games due to allowing people to take forgotten actions/flip cards etc) then just take the 'Win at all costs' attitude and own it - no point beating yourself up over it. Anxiety and regret are bad for you

It did come as a complete surprise to me that he quit the game, as Fenn + Manaroo is still a strong squad, especially against mine. Winning by default wasn't part of my decision making process.

1 hour ago, Joe Censored said:

Now knowing everything, and reading what everyone else has said, I'd seriously consider just letting him flip to the other direction in this instance without calling for a judge.

If you want to do this, you will have to do it without calling the judge over. A judge at a "real" event simply has no recourse. (I mean, honestly, what -- exactly -- were you hoping the judge would say? "You can just change your dial to whatever you want"?)

As many people have pointed out, allowing somebody to perform a maneuver other than what he dialed in is technically cheating. No TO I know of would object to it if he saw it done (unless forced to by a player), but no TO I know of would give it official sanction, either. (Including, BTW, me.)

Just now, Jeff Wilder said:

If you want to do this, you will have to do it without calling the judge over. A judge at a "real" event simply has no recourse. (I mean, honestly, what -- exactly -- were you hoping the judge would say? "You can just change your dial to whatever you want"?)

As many people have pointed out, allowing somebody to perform a maneuver other than what he dialed in is technically cheating. No TO I know of would object to it if he saw it done (unless forced to by a player), but no TO I know of would give it official sanction, either. (Including, BTW, me.)

Yes I understand I wouldn't be calling the judge over. Honestly, as I already mentioned my inexperience I didn't actually know for sure what the judge would say. For all I knew there was a rule I wasn't aware of that allowed either resetting the game or correcting obvious 1st turn errors.

1 minute ago, Joe Censored said:

Yes I understand I wouldn't be calling the judge over. Honestly, as I already mentioned my inexperience I didn't actually know for sure what the judge would say. For all I knew there was a rule I wasn't aware of that allowed either resetting the game or correcting obvious 1st turn errors.

That's fair. It would be nice if there were, but -- realistically -- it would be a logistical nightmare. It's truthfully better just to hope you're playing a Decent Human Being, and can handle it informally. You know, if you're like me, and not always perfect.

48 minutes ago, Joe Censored said:

Yes I understand I wouldn't be calling the judge over. Honestly, as I already mentioned my inexperience I didn't actually know for sure what the judge would say. For all I knew there was a rule I wasn't aware of that allowed either resetting the game or correcting obvious 1st turn errors.

Seriously, Joe, you played by the rules. In the end, you appealed to a higher authority, and that person had to let the dial stand. It's "professional" XWM and the way the cookie crumbles.

As for the "rage quit" BS, I think that a player told that the rest of the game will be played under a legal "power play" format has every right to walk away from the table and clear his head for the games to come.

I'm the end, it was a night of High Stakes Gaming. Fly Casual doesn't mean ignore the rules, it means don't be a gloating DB. I don't envy the obvious moral conundrum this whole thing has put you in, but it is also why I won't game like this.

Hey Joe Censored:

If things were turned around and you obviously mis-dialed on turn 1, how'd you feel if your opponent called over the judge knowing the ruling the judge is required to make.

50 minutes ago, patox said:

Hey Joe Censored:

If things were turned around and you obviously mis-dialed on turn 1, how'd you feel if your opponent called over the judge knowing the ruling the judge is required to make.

Personally I would have completed the maneuver I dialed in, regardless of what happened. Now that I know there is no rule allowing the judge to change that, I would say "oops.... poof!" and continue the game. Trying to pull a win out of the ashes would have made it all the more fun IMO.

But I wasn't posting this to discuss how I would have seen that. I really wanted to know how the community felt about how an opponent is expected to handle this type of thing, because I frankly did not know if there was some common way to handle this outside of the rules even in a tournament setting. Thanks very much for everyone who has posted their opinion.

5 hours ago, StevenO said:

Allowing the ship to run away in no way prevented the game from continue. It may have made the situation much more difficult but it certainly didn't end it. It is only the "rage quit" that prevented the game from continuing.

After that concession I really would have suggested a "let's just see what could have happened" game where nothing is on the line anymore and the game was just for fun and to kill the time. The result would have no standing in the tournament but could satisfy an X-Wing desire. "But if you do that why not just allow the take back in the first place and then play the game?" You don't do that because then there are no consequence for the mistake that was made. Now that games are binary (win/lose) if you lose you lose.

Why would the opponent agree to that though? Conceding sends a pretty clear 'I don't want to play this guy' message.

I dont really think it was a **** move. Just the fact that he was playing Parattani, which in the current gamestate is a better list than trench run X-wings, and it was at a store championship, I would be less lenient as wel. This is just a combination of factors that I take into account.

If I was playing against an inexperienced player, or any player with a "normal" list, I would be ok with it and let him change his dial. Fly casual is very important. After all I go to tournaments to have fun!

1 minute ago, Sarcon said:

I dont really think it was a **** move. Just the fact that he was playing Parattani, which in the current gamestate is a better list than trench run X-wings, and it was at a store championship, I would be less lenient as wel. This is just a combination of factors that I take into account.

If I was playing against an inexperienced player, or any player with a "normal" list, I would be ok with it and let him change his dial. Fly casual is very important. After all I go to tournaments to have fun!

What is a "normal" list, by your definition?

It makes me sad that you feel Fly Casual is very important, and going to tournaments to have fun is very important, but you're happy to judge another player and be less casual towards them based solely on the list they are flying, regardless of their reason for doing so. He could well have been a very inexperienced player for example.

1 minute ago, jesper_h said:

What is a "normal" list, by your definition?

It makes me sad that you feel Fly Casual is very important, and going to tournaments to have fun is very important, but you're happy to judge another player and be less casual towards them based solely on the list they are flying, regardless of their reason for doing so. He could well have been a very inexperienced player for example.

If it really was an inexperienced player I would let him change it regardles of the list. I'm just a big Parattani hater, which in all honesty does make me a bit biased as wel.

Personally, turn one mistakes such as off the board, i'll let people take back as it often results in either a tremendously bad game for both players, which is just a dragged out negative experience or no game at all, which is what you experienced. As others have said, you did the right thing with the judge call.

That being said, sometimes forgiving a mistake can be worse. I was at a tournament awhile ago and played against a new(ish) player that was using a TIE Phantom. He forgot to cloak on turn 1, which seriously messed up his game plan, so I forgave the mistake and let him cloak.

The game continued and I lost, barely. However through out the game, he forgot to cloak a total of three times, all which I forgave and he forgot his Fire Control System twice, one of which was on a key role. I didn't want to lay into the new guy, so I was pretty lenient and he was grateful.

I caught up with him a few rounds later, I had made the cut (him being my only loss at the the time) and was packing up. Apparently, that was the only game he won the entire day. The win put him in a bracket he was just not meant to be in. He lost 0 - 100 in the next two games, his third put him against a PS11 Han Jank list which countered him utterly and then he just about lost his last game. He would have won if he had remembered to cloak. . .

So me being "a nice guy" actually contributed to this guys overall negative experience. Had I of beaten him in our game, he may of played other players of his level and had closer games, instead, he got tabled consecutively, didn't enjoy anything and likely never flew a Phantom again.

I consider myself a very competitive person but I'd let the guy change the dial. As much as I enjoy winning, it's actually being better than my opponent (be it through better flying, preparing a better list or both) that gives me satisfaction. There's little to no satisfaction to be had from a game where a simple and obvious first turn mistake decides the outcome. So no, I wouldn't mind him changing that move - not even if the game was the final of the SC. Not letting him change the dial was well within your rights and totally legit but not very sportsmanlike.

In the long run it was also probably counterproductive. From what you say, you're not a very experienced player, so your chances of winning the entire event were distant at best. Therefore you either came to the event just for fun or - if you're a competitive person - to gain valuable experience, get a taste of a large tournament and build your confidence as a player. This "victory" served neither of those purposes and taught you exactly nothing.

Also, to all the people who call the other player's decision to concede a "rage-quit" - I don't think anyone plays this game proffessionally. We all do this for fun and to enjoy ourselves in a company of people we like and who share our hobby. The other guy clearly decided that playing out the game would be a frustrating experience rather than an entertaining one and that he doesn't particularly enjoy the company of someone who put winning above having fun. His decision is absolutely understandable, absolutely within his rights and should be respected without name-calling - just as much as the OP's decision to enforce the rules.

The way I look at it is, it was his mistake and should have run with it. I've flown ships off the board more times than I would like to count, but have always stuck with it and continued.

Accept the loss of the ship and carry on, calling the TO over seemed reasonable.

If you did it with a particularly bad attitude, then yeah it was a **** move. But if you were open and honest about calling them over then no issues there and were pleasant about the whole thing, I see no issue.

11 hours ago, Joe Censored said:

I really wanted to know how the community felt about how an opponent is expected to handle this type of thing, because I frankly did not know if there was some common way to handle this outside of the rules even in a tournament setting.

Previous similar discussions were either started by players who allowed their opponent to take back some move and consequently lost the game, or players who did not allow it and were then unsure if they did the right thing. In either case, the aim seems to be that the OPs wanted 'the community' to give them some kind of reassurance. But I don't think this is the best place to find that. Opinions are too divided on the issue.

My view is that the advantage of winning in an X-Wing tournament is very small compared to the quality of the matches themselves: you can win bragging rights and some carboard or plastic, that's it. If I play a tournament, it's to play good challenging games of X-Wing. So I tend to make the decision that makes for a better game, and consequently I'm fairly lenient when it comes to missed opportunities or mistakes.

I'm one of those who gets slightly put out when someone asks for a takeback. If its a clear mistake I'd normally offer the guy that takeback anway, but I'd rather I got to volunteer it.

I feel like when your opponent asks for it, he's putting the decision very much on you. The dynamic also changes from you doing something generous or just not doing something generous (volunteering the takeback) and being a good sport or being a bad sport (being specifically asked about it).

I'm not sure why I feel the distinction is important though.

What you did was legal. Not a **** move, although it would have been nice to let him change it - but perfectly fine.

What is a shame is all the people on this thread that advocate doing this based on the squads being used. You @Joe Censored are not morally superior for flying 3 X wings (In fact, 3 X wings could beat Paratanni if flown well) and this attitude

3 hours ago, Sarcon said:

I dont really think it was a **** move. Just the fact that he was playing Parattani, which in the current gamestate is a better list than trench run X-wings, and it was at a store championship, I would be less lenient as wel. This is just a combination of factors that I take into account.

If I was playing against an inexperienced player, or any player with a "normal" list, I would be ok with it and let him change his dial. Fly casual is very important. After all I go to tournaments to have fun!

is completely against the fly-casual ethos that has been a hallmark of the community for as long as I've been playing. @Sarcon Are other players not allowed to go to have fun, and do that by flying paratanni if they want to? Why is this not a "normal" list, and why does this make them less allowed to make mistakes?

2 hours ago, ThalanirIII said:

is completely against the fly-casual ethos that has been a hallmark of the community for as long as I've been playing. @Sarcon Are other players not allowed to go to have fun, and do that by flying paratanni if they want to? Why is this not a "normal" list, and why does this make them less allowed to make mistakes?

Well lets say I really don't like spinach. We go eat together and you bring spinach. Doesn't make spinach bad, because you might really enjoy spinach. I just don't enjoy it. And if you screw up your meal I won't be like "hey that's okay, just try your spinach again, because that's really enjoyable for me too!".

Yes it was.

Winning tournaments is cool, but the whole reason we play X-Wing is to have fun. Not only did you ruin the game for him, you will probably feel guilty about it every time you think about it. And tell yourself, how much did you enjoy the game after that?

It doesn't even really matter that it was the first turn. If your opponent clearly dialed in the wrong turn the morally right way is to let him do the opposite maneuver.

Just because something's in the rules doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Just as something is not neccessarily moral even if it's legal.

You must do what you feel is right, of course.

-Ben Kenobi

26 minutes ago, Sarcon said:

Well lets say I really don't like spinach. We go eat together and you bring spinach. Doesn't make spinach bad, because you might really enjoy spinach. I just don't enjoy it. And if you screw up your meal I won't be like "hey that's okay, just try your spinach again, because that's really enjoyable for me too!".

What?

You have no right to tell people what they should/should not fly. You shouldn't judge someone based on what they're flying, that's more of a **** move. Trying to squeeze it into your spinach example, if someone organises a buffet where each person brings a dish, you're not superior to anyone who brings spinach, even if you have to eat some. It's also polite not to complain. Now, if this buffet had rules that "everyone has to be approved by Sarcon's tastes" then your example would be valid.

But your analogy still fails to make any sense.

15 minutes ago, Elavion said:

Yes it was.

Winning tournaments is cool, but the whole reason we play X-Wing is to have fun. Not only did you ruin the game for him, you will probably feel guilty about it every time you think about it. And tell yourself, how much did you enjoy the game after that?

It doesn't even really matter that it was the first turn. If your opponent clearly dialed in the wrong turn the morally right way is to let him do the opposite maneuver.

Just because something's in the rules doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Just as something is not neccessarily moral even if it's legal.

It might be morally right, but it's against the rules of the game... It's perfectly moral to not allow takebacks, and it was the opponent who conceded when his squad still had a chance vs the X wing squad.