I searched the forum and found this, but it doesn't quite answer my questions.

How do temporarily speed changes work when you have multiple speed changes and also that targeted ship has navigate dial/tokens and or other speed changing effects like Ozzel?

What does it mean to temporarily change speed? How does one execute that? Say I G8 experimental a Speed 4 MC30.

What happens if you G8 experimental a Speed 3 MC30 but it has a Navigate command? Can it change speed from where its at temporarily, or does the temporarily change get effected after changing your true speed?
Ex. Can the MC30 then decide to go speed 1, and does the dial then change to 1, or change to 2?
Ex. Do I attempt to execute a speed 3 move, and stop at the 2 mark? A la collision.
Do I choose which speed and where to add yaws first? When?

Does any of this change if you change something speed forcefully by 2? Via Konstantine, Tractors or G8? I know one of them has slightly different reading. Konstantine?

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My assumption is the navigate changes speed based on what the speed dial says, then temporarily changes are affected. And a final course is laid that is permissible under all the speed changes and yaw added at that speed.

You're correct (I believe).

Really, for the most part, whenever we're dealing with Speed, we're talking about "Speed on the dial".

If G8s are used on a Ship, then it effectively applies a temporary speed, but its still going the Speed on its dial. (Engine Techs do as well, but they're essentially in the same boat, only you can't do anything other than G8s to effect it).

So, for example:

An MC30 is at Speed 3 and has a Nav Dial. It goes to maneuver, and the enemy slaps a G8 on it.

It is now at Speed 3, but a Temporary speed 2... If the Player decides to spend its Nav Dial to change the speed (to speed up), then it becomes Speed 4 on its Dial, with a Temporary Speed of 3 (4-1). it would also get the Extra Click of Yaw... But that extra Click is applicable at the speed of its maneuver - which is Speed 3.

If we take that above MC30 however, and start it at speed 4....

The G8s will reduce it to a Temporary speed of 3... If the player decides to Spend the Nav Dial, he cannot increase the Speed to counteract, as his Dial is at a Maximum speed for that ship already (Speed 4).

He would however gain the benefit of the extra Nav Click for spending the Dial.

All other speed Changes - Konstantine, Tractor Beams, Nav Dials, Ozzell, Comms Noise- all of those effect the Speed on the dial, and have no actual bearing on the Temporary Speed change.

Additional Info:

The FAQ has basically stated, that when the ship goes to manevuer - at the start of the step - before the Player has decided on wether to use his Nav Dial or Not, or even really started fiddling with his Man Tool... That is when you Declare G8s.

You do not get to declare G8s in response to a speed change - the G8s must be used, essentially, first .

13 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

The G8s will reduce it to a Temporary speed of 3... If the player decides to Spend the Nav Dial, he cannot increase the Speed to counteract, as his Dial is at a Maximum speed for that ship already (Speed 4).

He would however gain the benefit of the extra Nav Click for spending the Dial.

This to me seems very counterintuitive. I'm pretty sure you have a reasoning for it (what is it?, rule precedent/rulebook wise), but it makes absolutely no sense.

I believe your reasoning is that a speed change has to be a change, up or down. But can we really not declare the same speed? Also, it seems like a very odd case where you can move your speed back up if youre at speed 3... wow. that is gnarly. that's even weirder. To go at the speed you want, speed 3, you ahve to go set the dial to speed 4 so that the temporary takes you down to speed 3. That is very convoluted.

This is not an interaction I'd want to be informing/teaching a new player of in a game.

13 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

The FAQ has basically stated, that when the ship goes to manevuer - at the start of the step - before the Player has decided on wether to use his Nav Dial or Not, or even really started fiddling with his Man Tool... That is when you Declare G8s.

You do not get to declare G8s in response to a speed change - the G8s must be used, essentially, first .

On this it also seems like one of those darn Armada delayed, two-step actions: declare at one moment, actually get the result at the very end of the interaction, post all of your opponents finagling (with their speed changes and the dial) at the end.

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Also, do you want to post out how you came to your explanation? which parts of the rulebook/texts to look it?

2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

This to me seems very counterintuitive. I'm pretty sure you have a reasoning for it (what is it?, rule precedent/rulebook wise), but it makes absolutely no sense.

I believe your reasoning is that a speed change has to be a change, up or down. But can we really not declare the same speed? Also, it seems like a very odd case where you can move your speed back up if youre at speed 3... wow. that is gnarly. that's even weirder. To go at the speed you want, speed 3, you ahve to go set the dial to speed 4 so that the temporary takes you down to speed 3. That is very convoluted.

This is not an interaction I'd want to be informing/teaching a new player of in a game.

On this it also seems like one of those darn Armada delayed, two-step actions: declare at one moment, actually get the result at the very end of the interaction, post all of your opponents finagling (with their speed changes and the dial) at the end.

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Also, do you want to post out how you came to your explanation? which parts of the rulebook/texts to look it?

When the Ship is already at speed 4, how does it increase speed? it cannot.

Nav dial/Token only changes speed on the speed dial. it has no ability to "temporarily" change speed.

so a Ship at speed 4 that gets temp speed reduced, cannot increase to counteract the temp reduction, there is literally no number beyond 4 on the dial.

7 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Also, do you want to post out how you came to your explanation? which parts of the rulebook/texts to look it?

Primarily, the part that is pertinent here, is from the FAQ:


G-8 Experimental Projector

When this effect is resolved on an enemy ship and that ship changes its speed dial during the Determine Course step, the ship’s speed is temporarily reduced by 1 from the current speed on its dial.

This effect can be resolved on an enemy ship that is executing a maneuver from an effect such as Engine Techs.

This effect is resolved before the Determine Course step of that maneuver and reduces the ship’s temporary speed by 1 to a minimum of 0.

And from the Rulebook, Page 11:

Speed

A ship’s speed determines how far it must move each activation; the ship’s current speed is tracked on its speed dial.

A squadron’s speed value indicates the farthest distance band that the squadron can move into.

• A ship’s speed is constant until the ship resolves a NAV command or uses an upgrade card effect to change speed .

• The minimum speed for all ships is 0.

• Each ship’s maximum speed is indicated on its speed chart. If a ship does not have any yaw values in a speed column, it cannot accelerate to that speed.

That has been reinforced as the intended use of G8s by Michael Gernes, in the lead up to and in the FAQ (the question was wether 'resolves' means start or finish the Determine Course step, and in this instance at least (if not all the time), it means 'begins'. To reduce the speed of the maneuver of the enemy ship by 1. If they counter by speeding up, they have to both be able to speed up, and will find themselves at that new speed next turn when they go to maneuver.

Its also the simplest way to look at it, from a rules perspective. "I use G8s. Whatever is on your speed dial - Reduce it by 1 when you move, that's your speed of maneuver - or your temporary speed. But I don't change your Dial. That's up to you to do ."

Another, simple way to look at it:

The speed at which a ship is considered to be going (for most game effects) is its "current speed", which is tracked strictly by the dial and limited by the maneuver chart.

The speed at which a ship actually performs a maneuver can differ from the above if it has been assigned a "temporary speed" by one of the following effects:

• Engine Techs: temporary speed is set to "1"
• G8: temporary speed is set to "current speed -1"*
• Collisions: temporary speed is set to "whatever doesn't make you crash"

*: you get a chance to change the dial, but cannot set it to 5!

I don't think ET temporarily changes your speed. It lets you do another maneuver at the 1 speed as noted on your speed chart.

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Another thing then: the Nav dial seems to allow you to not change speed, but add a yaw. Does that affect a G8'ed speed 4 ship?

In relation to the first sentence, does that allow you to add a yaw to the ET maneuver if you spend a nav command that turn? I'm pretty sure you can't.

Just now, Blail Blerg said:

In relation to the first sentence, does that allow you to add a yaw to the ET maneuver if you spend a nav command that turn? I'm pretty sure you can't.

No, because you can't resolve a Nav Command Twice...

And you have to have resolved a Nav command to already get to be allowed to use the Engine Techs Maneuver...

A Speed 4 Ship who had been hit with G8s will do a Speed 3 maneuver.

If it has a Nav Dial, then its allowed to resolve that Nav dial to: "Increase or Decrease speed by 1, and/or Increase a yaw click by 1."

It does not *have* to change its speed, it has the option to. But if it does not, it will do a speed 3 maneuver, using the Speed 3 Nav Chart, with the option of increasing one of those yaw clicks by 1, to a maximum of 2. But of course, because its changing the speed dial with its Nav order, it can't change its speed to a speed that it does not have on its ship card.

If it elects to decrease its speed, that will put the Speed dial to 3, the 'speed of manuver' due to G8s at 2, and again, will still allow an extra yaw click.

7 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I don't think ET temporarily changes your speed. It lets you do another maneuver at the 1 speed as noted on your speed chart.

But that's exactly what temporary speed is. It's not "your speed right now". It's "the speed at which the current maneuver is performed". A CR90 using ET is still going at current speed 3 or 4, but it performs the ET maneuver with a temporary speed of 1 (or 0, if it gets G8'd along the way).

In that sense, G8 doesn't "change your speed" either, it simply tells you that your current maneuver will be performed at a lower speed.

Just now, DiabloAzul said:

But that's exactly what temporary speed is. It's not "your speed right now". It's "the speed at which the current maneuver is performed". A CR90 using ET is still going at current speed 3 or 4, but it performs the ET maneuver with a temporary speed of 1 (or 0, if it gets G8'd along the way).

In that sense, G8 doesn't "change your speed" either, it simply tells you that your current maneuver will be performed at a lower speed.

I read your first sentence twice. I get your point, but I don't get why the way you said it makes it easier to understand, or explain to new players nor illuminate the issue. Though, yes, that seems to be the case.

G8 says to temporarily change your speed. So the question is what does that mean. Hence thread.

So far I don't think any upgrade/ruling tracks what speed you did a maneuver at: so the 1 speed of ET is kind of meaningless. Unless you could G8 the ET move, which... I think you can't either. Which then means that there is some different meaning for temporarily changing speed.

16 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Unless you could G8 the ET move, which... I think you can't either. Which then means that there is some different meaning for temporarily changing speed.

Except you can, as per the FAQ (G8 entry, p.12):

This effect can be resolved on an enemy ship
that is executing a maneuver from an effect
such as Engine Techs. This effect is resolved
before the Determine Course step of that
maneuver and reduces the ship’s temporary
speed by 1 to a minimum of 0.

Also:

Q: When an effect instructs a ship to execute a maneuver
outside of its usual Execute Maneuver step, what is that
ship’s speed?
A: While executing that additional maneuver, the ship’s speed
is temporarily set to the speed indicated by the effect that is
resolved. The ship executes the maneuver by completing the
Determine Course and Move Ship steps. The ship’s current
speed is still tracked by its speed dial, and the ship does not
count as having changed its speed.

@Blail Blerg , I don't mean to be rude, and I do enjoy a good rules discussion - but if you're going to be contrarian, I would at least expect you to have looked at the relevant rules...

Just now, DiabloAzul said:

Except you can, as per the FAQ (G8 entry, p.12):

This effect can be resolved on an enemy ship
that is executing a maneuver from an effect
such as Engine Techs. This effect is resolved
before the Determine Course step of that
maneuver and reduces the ship’s temporary
speed by 1 to a minimum of 0.

Also:

Q: When an effect instructs a ship to execute a maneuver
outside of its usual Execute Maneuver step, what is that
ship’s speed?
A: While executing that additional maneuver, the ship’s speed
is temporarily set to the speed indicated by the effect that is
resolved. The ship executes the maneuver by completing the
Determine Course and Move Ship steps. The ship’s current
speed is still tracked by its speed dial, and the ship does not
count as having changed its speed.

@Blail Blerg , I don't mean to be rude, and I do enjoy a good rules discussion - but if you're going to be contrarian, I would at least expect you to have looked at the relevant rules...

@DiabloAzul , sorry I don't mean to be rude either... but I actually don't particularly mean to be contrarian also. I was about to post as an addendum to my last post that I was having a hard time DLing all the relevant rules for the game (my physicals are stuck outta reach).

Also as noted above in this thread and early in the rules compilation threads (if they still exist), I find the rules in this game to be utterly confusing even after reading. Hey, that's why I ask. Honestly, I'm not sure why people think its a big boo boo to not really have a good grasp of multi-document reading and physical and electronic search fu.

No, you're right, it could definitely be clearer and more organized!

Does it say whether you change the ships dial when you have a temporary speed?

What does it mean to "temporarily set" a speed? I could read that as "change the dial to the temporary speed, do the maneuver, change the dial back" - which has implications with G8.

This has been made abundantly clear in various documents: "temporary set this speed" = "perform the maneuver at this speed without changing the dial".

The dial always corresponds to the current speed.

Which documents and what page?

I can't seem to locate it. Is it an FAQ?

Just Ctrl+F for "tempor" in the RRG and the latest FAQ, and cycle through the results:

Overlapping
If a ship executes a maneuver and its final position
would overlap another ship, it cannot finish its maneuver
normally. Instead, temporarily reduce its speed by one
(without changing the speed dial) and move the ship at the
new speed.

• If a ship temporarily reduces its speed, its speed returns
to the number indicated on the speed dial after it
finishes executing its maneuver.

Q: When an effect instructs a ship to execute a maneuver
outside of its usual Execute Maneuver step, what is that
ship’s speed?
A: While executing that additional maneuver, the ship’s speed
is temporarily set to the speed indicated by the effect that is
resolved. The ship executes the maneuver by completing the
Determine Course and Move Ship steps. The ship’s current
speed is still tracked by its speed dial , and the ship does not
count as having changed its speed.

G-8 Experimental Projector
When this effect is resolved on an enemy
ship and that ship changes its speed dial
during the Determine Course step, the ship’s
speed is temporarily reduced by 1 from the
current speed on its dial .

I also remember there were some e-mail responses in the past on this subject, but you'll forgive me if I don't want to go digging through those too

Thanks so much. That is more than sufficient!